Your Home Theater ULF Score - Page 89 - AVS Forum
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post #2641 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I remember reading 20hz.

Archaea,
Comparing like that is not an apples to apples comparison. Jeff was running the OS at or near limits to show what they could do? How many people even try that with their systems. SPL is SPL and no matter what produces it, once reached will have the seams effects, if not, then there is something like compression or distortion happening. 16 18's should beat up a pair of OS's and if not then something was not calibrated correctly. I have broken many things with many different setups. This is the ULF thread and the OS is just a single 18 in this realm. Above 20hz a monster for sure.
At the moment, the OS has a certain "mystic" aspect to it since the measurements of it's SPL capabilities are non-existent.

I completely agree that it's over 20hz output has to be experienced to be believed, but I've said many times, based on personal experience and my own measurements on the sub in my own room, that it's nothing to write home about at or below 20hz.

At 20hz, Archaea's 8x18 system blows a pair of OS subs away.
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post #2642 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 10:59 AM
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It may take me around a week to get the data. I won't get much time in the next 7 days to play in the HT. Most people put two in a couch and I have 4, I don't know if that makes any difference.

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post #2643 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 11:03 AM
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I agree fully with both MKtheater and lukeamdman.


I don't think the OS does anything outrageous below 20hz, nor have I suggested it of doing such. We played the black hawk down clip and I didn't experience anything at all with it at the 2012 meet. I understand why - it was basically the equivalent of playing those 7hz notes with 2 sealed high excursion 18's. That does nothing on a concrete slab in a 3,500 cubic foot space. Poplalocks, sixteen 18" space is the only theater I've heard the clip do anything impressive at all - and even there - it was just various hot spots in the room.


But I do take up this point --- as to how many people turn their systems fully loose? Have I really experienced one of the sealed setups at max tilt. Yes, and yes to nearly all I think. At least as the owners have them configured.
Really - who has a subwoofer setup like this and doesn't take it to max tilt on occasion?
  • I take mine there. (8 sealed 18" - amp limited - amps power cycles)
  • @carp does (8 sealed 18" - amp limited - power cycles),
  • @popalock does (16 sealed 18" - amp limited - power cycles),
  • @desertdome does (8 sealed 15" - not sure if amp or driver limited - desertdomes so calculated I doubt he'd ever take you publically to the brink on a demo where you hear a bad noise or a amp shuts down, but he knows preciously when to stop in his demos, and I remember his max output run in a home theater tour a couple years back)
  • @d_c does (2 gjallarhorn - driver and amp limits experienced),
  • JTR Orbit Shifter pair - probably taken past the brink - flipped two 20 amp dedicated outlets during the demo, and they were sounding overloaded during lots of the playtime at the volume Jeff took them too during the demo - but they survived and left a very memorable impression on me.
  • @gorilla83 ???? probably he hasn't taken us to the brink - at least when I've been there - I don't know if his system is amp or driver limited. Probably amp limited as well, since I think Beastaudio says his similar system is amp limited too.
So 6 of the 7 most punishing home theater systems I've experienced, I've heard taken to the brink (I hope I'm not forgetting anyone). Most of these systems are capable of at least hitting the low 130dB range in overall bass volume.

So I've heard the limits on these setups just like I've heard the limits on the Orbit Shifters. In my experience, the orbit shifter had more raw output at it's limits (telltale signs - actually physically broken things, raw ears for a month, skin and clothing sensations not experienced elsewhere). This demo was certainly not at subsonic frequencies, but like Lukeamdman states - it pretty much has to be experienced at full bore to believe. Part of that SPL is probably at the expense of compression and a undesirable frequency response at the limits - likely heavily loaded spl at the 50-70hz frequency response when at outrageous volumes. This meanwhile - where all the comparable sealed sub demos are eq'ed away from max output and typically eq'ed to present a house curve. Totally different. I understand that. I know popalocks setup had ULF subsonic frequencies in absolute SPADES over two orbit shifters. Yet if you notice lately - he recommends the JTR Orbit Shifter pretty much without reservation as best I can tell (example here - post 60 - JTR Orbit Shifter LFU vs JTR Captivator S2). His sixteen 18"s were the second most memorable system I've visited behind the dual orbit shifters. Not as clean as eight or 16 sealed at max output - but just an outright wrecking ball. In the narrow purposes of subsonic ULF - the Orbit Shifter is not very impressive. However, for the purposes of real world cinema bass reproduction and the walking away shaking your head, just WOW effect - overall it's the most memorable I've heard yet. I'm looking forward to hearing @lukeamdman's setup sometime and having a new bar set (hopefully briefly! ).

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Last edited by Archaea; 10-22-2014 at 11:25 AM.
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post #2644 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I agree fully with both MKtheater and lukeamdman.


I don't think the OS does anything outrageous below 20hz, nor have I suggested it of doing such. We played the black hawk down clip and I didn't experience anything at all with it at the 2012 meet. I understand why - it was basically the equivalent of playing those 7hz notes with 2 sealed high excursion 18's. That does nothing on a concrete slab in a 3,500 cubic foot space. Poplalocks, sixteen 18" space is the only theater I've heard the clip do anything impressive at all - and even there - it was just various hot spots in the room.


But I do take up this point --- as to how many people turn their systems fully loose? Have I really experienced one of the sealed setups at max tilt. Yes, and yes to nearly all I think. At least as the owners have them configured.
Really - who has a subwoofer setup like this and doesn't take it to max tilt on occasion?


I take mine there. (8 sealed 18" - amp limited - amps power cycles) @carp does (8 sealed 18" - amp limited - power cycles), @popalock does (16 sealed 18" - amp limited - power cycles), @desertdome does (8 sealed 15" - not sure if amp or driver limited - desertdomes so calculated I doubt he'd ever take you publically to the brink on a demo where you hear a bad noise or a amp shuts down, but he knows preciously when to stop in his demos, and I remember his max output run in a home theater tour a couple years back) @d_c does (2 gjallarhorn - driver and amp limits experienced),
JTR Orbit Shifter pair - probably taken past the brink - flipped two 20 amp dedicated outlets during the demo, and they were sounding overloaded during lots of the playtime at the volume Jeff took them too during the demo - but they survived and left a very memorable impression on me.
gorilla83 ???? probably he hasn't taken us to the brink - at least when I've been there - I don't know if his system is amp or driver limited. Probably amp limited as well.


So 6 of the 7 most punishing home theater systems I've experienced, I've heard taken to the brink (I hope I'm not forgetting anyone). Most of these systems are capable of at least hitting the low 130dB range in overall bass volume.

So I've heard the limits on these setups just like I've heard the limits on the Orbit Shifters. In my experience, the orbit shifter had more raw output at it's limits (telltale signs - actually physically broken things, raw ears for a month, skin and clothing sensations not experienced elsewhere). This demo was certainly not at subsonic frequencies, but like Lukeamdman states - it pretty much has to be experienced at full bore to believe. Part of that SPL is probably at the expense of compression and a undesirable frequency response at the limits - likely heavily loaded spl at the 50-70hz frequency response when at outrageous volumes. This meanwhile - where all the comparable sealed sub demos are eq'ed away from max output and typically eq'ed to present a house curve. Totally different. I understand that. I know popalocks setup had ULF subsonic frequencies in absolute SPADES over two orbit shifters. Yet if you notice lately - he recommends the JTR Orbit Shifter pretty much without reservation as best I can tell (example here - post 60 - JTR Orbit Shifter LFU vs JTR Captivator S2). His sixteen 18"s were the second most memorable system I've visited behind the dual orbit shifters. Not as clean as eight or 16 sealed at max output - but just an outright wrecking ball. In the narrow purposes of subsonic ULF - the Orbit Shifter is not very impressive. However, for the purposes of real world cinema bass reproduction and the walking away shaking your head, just WOW effect - overall it's the most memorable I've heard yet. I'm looking forward to hearing @lukeamdman's setup sometime and having a new bar set (hopefully briefly! ).
It's easy to recommend the OS, because for home theater, it provides 99% of the total experience just by itself, and that's something that I don't believe can be said for any other single sub that I'm aware of thus far.

The Ghorn is a beast down to 12hz, but it's not the complete package by itself because it lacks 50hz and up. The Othorn is a beast down to 25hz, but it's not the complete package by itself because it lacks anything below that. Together they're a match made in heaven
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post #2645 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 11:25 AM
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Again not the same thing, let those guys limit the low frequencies like the OS and let their systems loose above 20hz. The OS has to be circuit compressing the low end heavily when cranked becUse it can't keep up so if you high pass those sealed systems think about what they can do. High pass your system at 20hz and run those babies and watch the SPL rise! Also make sure the responses are still linear and te crossovers are the same. Many sealed systems are designed for the single digits so above 80hz would suffer and horns like the OS can play higher. This is like having a SPL contest where one sub is playing flat to 10 hz at 130 dBs and the other is playing 136 dBs from 30-70 dBs, not an apples to apples comparison. Yep, the 136 dBs system will be louder no doubt! Match the responses and then try it out. Either get rid of the upper end of the OS to match the low end to be linear or get rid of the low end of the sealed systems.
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post #2646 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 11:43 AM
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Archaea, if you're ever in the NY area, you should come checkout what monster ported enclosures with gobs of power are like
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post #2647 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 12:57 PM
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Yeah Notnyt, just based on the design you are getting what 8 LMS 5400's(sealed would get)at 16hz with one sub! That would destroy the OS at 4 Cap drivers. Don't get me wrong, I would love the OS as I still love horns but I want much deeper extension.
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post #2648 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Yeah Notnyt, just based on the design you are getting what 8 LMS 5400's(sealed would get)at 16hz with one sub! That would destroy the OS at 4 Cap drivers. Don't get me wrong, I would love the OS as I still love horns but I want much deeper extension.
I don't believe you...
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post #2649 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 01:58 PM
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I'll win my ULF war with @Archaea eventually... I don't care if it takes 64 subs...

You may have won the last battle sir, but the war is far from over.
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post #2650 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 02:08 PM
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Well you took down your arsenal for now. Pop, all you have to do is build a wood riser to place your seats and now you will even feel the single digits. That is what I did.
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post #2651 of 2656 Old 10-22-2014, 02:17 PM
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I'll win my ULF war with @Archaea eventually... I don't care if it takes 64 subs...

You may have won the last battle sir, but the war is far from over.
I got ya'll all beat. Catch up, mister! No excuse being in the Middle East.

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post #2652 of 2656 Old Yesterday, 07:16 AM
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Are you guys comparing 16 vs 2 because of price? I'd think a more apples to apples would be 16 vs 16 at the same frequency if the objective is to measure capability and not value.
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post #2653 of 2656 Old Yesterday, 07:36 AM
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Are you guys comparing 16 vs 2 because of price? I'd think a more apples to apples would be 16 vs 16 at the same frequency if the objective is to measure capability and not value.

No, because two are being compared subjectively to 8 or more. 16 sealed 18's can fit into a room, 16 OS's can not. If you want to compare price 16 sealed 18's would run you close to $4000 so it is closer to a shipped single OS, not duals. My ported system cost $3000 with 12 drivers.

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post #2654 of 2656 Old Yesterday, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
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No, because two are being compared subjectively to 8 or more. 16 sealed 18's can fit into a room, 16 OS's can not.
Well, that's your subjective opinion now... isn't it...
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post #2655 of 2656 Old Yesterday, 07:56 AM
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Well, that's your subjective opinion now... isn't it...

Well, and see the screen too! I would love to see the 16 OS fit into a room. Notnyt has 10000 cubic foot room and you have a 17000 cubic foot room so you are the two that can try. I have 12 drivers in my room and I know I can't fit 12 OS's, 3 DTS-10's would have been trouble.
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post #2656 of 2656 Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM
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Your Home Theater ULF Score

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Well, and see the screen too! I would love to see the 16 OS fit into a room. Notnyt has 10000 cubic foot room and you have a 17000 cubic foot room so you are the two that can try. I have 12 drivers in my room and I know I can't fit 12 OS's, 3 DTS-10's would have been trouble.

Maybe if you lay them on their sides (LFU version) and stack them?

I must have missed the part where 2 were directly being compared to 16. Also when I said apples to apples I was just talking subs vs subs without money or space or any other constraints as I thought it was raw performance that was being compared.
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