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post #2671 of 2696 Old 10-25-2014, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Based on Jeff's statements, the OS is down 6 dBs to a Cap S2 so equal to a S1. There is actually more roll off from a sealed design due to the very high sensitivity of the horn, 18 dBs rather than 12. When you guys talk about more SPL is it linear through the whole range of at a specific frequency? The problem with estimating these things is we don't have TS parameters to model and Ricci has not tested any. So Dom is actually using a great driver for comparison which has more x-max than the Cap driver.
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Originally Posted by rangers View Post
Looking at that graph; The S2 is more of a beast than I realized, wow!
I'd like to think our estimates are within 2db or so. Having said that, I think the UXL has really proven to be one of the top 18's in its class. I'd say that the S2 is on the high side of the estimate based on the assumption that the UXL is a more formidable driver for ULF compared to the JTR.
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post #2672 of 2696 Old 10-25-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Great vid pop!

That was my thought as well...maybe they are different models? It will be interesting to see what derrickdj1 comes back with once he measures and plots.
Doubt it... IIRC Arua has only made two models of their shakers, the Bass Shaker and the Bass Shaker Pro. The original bass shaker has been discontinued for quite a while now and I've never come across anyone who has ever owned them.

Anyway, maybe with some DSP fine tuning they could be a welcome addition, but I found that simply running them off of your LFE signal was kinda..."meh."
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post #2673 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 06:21 AM
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The aura sensitivity is at 50hz, which means it is flat to 5hz with a huge peak at 50hz. The most violent shaking happens at 50hz but I thought it was very artificial. If one EQ's or low passes that 50hz out then it would be better balanced and maybe provide a better feeling. The negative is you need more of them if they don't shake enough that low. I had one per chair and it was too much but I never eq'd them so it was the 50hz peak that made it so.
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post #2674 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 11:08 AM
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Ok, I have a problem now! If I play anything but flat I flex my wall! You can hear the internal wood vibrating LOL! I am not sure how I am going to fix it without getting behind the wall and add more bracing. The screen moves on anything below 10hz at loud levels. It moved 3 times, maybe more, during the new X-men movie. I don't know if I am happy but I like the problem to have. Before it was just bass with no room noises.
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post #2675 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Ok, I have a problem now! If I play anything but flat I flex my wall! You can hear the internal wood vibrating LOL! I am not sure how I am going to fix it without getting behind the wall and add more bracing. The screen moves on anything below 10hz at loud levels. It moved 3 times, maybe more, during the new X-men movie. I don't know if I am happy but I like the problem to have. Before it was just bass with no room noises.
I know what you mean with the internal wall/studs vibrating.

When I setup my false wall, I moved my FTW21s closer to the side walls. At first, I had the drivers pointed directly at the wall..it sounded awful! The PVL was too great with the driver facing the wall, and it sounded like the room was going to fall part. It really did sound horrible.

I turned the drivers so that they fired into the room, and I actually angled them at 45 degrees, so it was as opposite a direction as they could. They were still next to the walls, but the driver wasn't facing them.

That solved the problem...PVL is directional, SPL is not. But now when playing some of the famous demo scenes, there is an almost clanking noise at reference. I thought it was the driver, but I put my ear right up to the driver and nothing...it was coming from the internal wall! Ugh...have no idea how I'm going to fix that without putting a hole in the wall and figure out what is loose!

Last edited by dominguez1; 10-26-2014 at 11:27 AM.
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post #2676 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 01:11 PM
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Got a new Atmos receiver a few weeks ago, and this what my response is looking like now with 4 sealed subs. 2 Dayton 18" and 2 SVS SB12 subs in 12x16 room that opens to a kitchen (2300cu.).
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post #2677 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 01:47 PM
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impressive!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #2678 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
I know what you mean with the internal wall/studs vibrating.

When I setup my false wall, I moved my FTW21s closer to the side walls. At first, I had the drivers pointed directly at the wall..it sounded awful! The PVL was too great with the driver facing the wall, and it sounded like the room was going to fall part. It really did sound horrible.

I turned the drivers so that they fired into the room, and I actually angled them at 45 degrees, so it was as opposite a direction as they could. They were still next to the walls, but the driver wasn't facing them.

That solved the problem...PVL is directional, SPL is not. But now when playing some of the famous demo scenes, there is an almost clanking noise at reference. I thought it was the driver, but I put my ear right up to the driver and nothing...it was coming from the internal wall! Ugh...have no idea how I'm going to fix that without putting a hole in the wall and figure out what is loose!
I am not sure if it is wall vibrating, speakers vibrating, wires moving, etc.. It does not sound bad, just my room crying uncle.
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post #2679 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post
Got a new Atmos receiver a few weeks ago, and this what my response is looking like now with 4 sealed subs. 2 Dayton 18" and 2 SVS SB12 subs in 12x16 room that opens to a kitchen (2300cu.).
Very nice...induction to the 5hz club cometh...

So, your signal chain rolled off at 10hz before? What receiver did you have and what did you get?
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post #2680 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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This:



Gets you the exclusive, limited print, 5hz ULF Card:



Excellent full range response Spanglo!...kind of reminds me of another full range response I've seen before...
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post #2681 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Very nice...induction to the 5hz club cometh...

So, your signal chain rolled off at 10hz before? What receiver did you have and what did you get?
Thanks for entrance to the club!

I recently added a Denon X5200, changed my room layout, and added a 4th sub. I was able to go low with my previous Denon 2113 too.

Interestingly, the response down low rolls off with the windows closed, is flat with one window open, and has a house curve with 2 windows open. I get good 6db boost at 5 Hz with windows open.

 




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Last edited by Spanglo; 10-26-2014 at 09:43 PM.
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post #2682 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Ok, here's what I've got for the JTR Line:



For the 215RT's, I went with 6db down from the Cap 20hz tune. Looked back at some old posts, and it looked like between the Ep4000 and the Crown XLS-5000, the difference in db was between 5-7db, so I took 6 for the average. Both @Archaea , @carp , and @Gorilla83 ;were comparing against the 20hz tune (or 2011 captivator) for reference, so that's what I worked with.

This seems to work pretty well as the RT's are within 1db of the Cap 17.5hz model at 20hz...matching Jeff's claim of having similar output as the Captivator (current model).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@dominguez1 ,


That looks pretty good, and my hats off to you to continue to work on fine tuning your formulas. However, I think the Orbit Shifter is being underrated against a sealed 18" SI below the horn's knee at the lowest frequencies.


How could it not be based on this thread?
Driver excursion below the knee, horn vs. sealed


In comparison to the SI driver ---
The Orbit Shifter driver is an outright more sensitive driver by several dB, that handles around four times the power, and has ~ 50% more excursion. At minimum, even without any horn loading bonus that would likely slightly boost the spl. as compared to the same driver(or a similar driver in sealed) based on the evidence in that thread. -- at minimum I don't see how it's going to get beat by an cap S1 based on the LTD02 thread linked above/


Am I missing something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
@Archaea ,

Just to clarify, are you referring to the Stereo Integrity 18in SI, or the JTR S1? I'm talking about the JTR S1. The OS below tune is definitely more powered than a single SI. I estimated based on the S1, but with an 18db rolloff based on this sim:

I am still struggling with the estimate for the OS LFU. The sim has an 18db rolloff, but others have said it is equal to an S1 below 20hz.

I'm currently estimating it at 114db at 20hz, but then I have 91.2db at 10hz (close to s1)? That's a lot steeper than an 18db rolloff as the sim shows...

Is it because this is a groundplane sim? And if you corner loaded the OS, it acts to increase the horn size, and therefore have much more output at tune and above (not shown in the sim) and this is how the claimed 133db@1M is attained?

IOW, if you sim'd with corner loading, 20hz and up would be elevated, but then fall back to the S1 output, and therefore closely resemble the output I've estimated above?

114db does seem low, but my opinion is probably being influenced by all the reviews of endless output it has...realistically, all the output is in the 'crowd pleaser range' of 25hz and up?
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post #2683 of 2696 Old 10-26-2014, 10:20 PM
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Again the problem is that people are thinking I had to have more output because of what they heard but what they heard was the horn loading. How many have said they thought the OS was louder than the S2 or better because it was louder. Well, it is louder in the audible range. Just because it has monster output above 20hz does not mean it should be higher at 10hz. BTW, I would doubt the Cap ported is louder at 20hz than the OS.
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post #2684 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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MK, why do you think it should be stronger than the cap at 20hz?

Do you know how to sim a folded horn with the UXL?
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post #2685 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 07:13 AM
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The OS is maybe 3-4 dBs louder than the Cap at 22hz so around 20hz is should be close. If the Cap had the same spl than Jeff would have never made the OS in the first place. Horn loading adds more spl than porting for a given driver. The distortion on the Cap at 20hz should be much lower but I doubt it is audible anyways. In my room, depending on design, 10-15% distortion sounds great.
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post #2686 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The OS is maybe 3-4 dBs louder than the Cap at 22hz so around 20hz is should be close. If the Cap had the same spl than Jeff would have never made the OS in the first place. Horn loading adds more spl than porting for a given driver. The distortion on the Cap at 20hz should be much lower but I doubt it is audible anyways. In my room, depending on design, 10-15% distortion sounds great.
@lukeamdman , I know you said 114-115db max. Curious as to why do you top it out there?
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post #2687 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
@lukeamdman , I know you said 114-115db max. Curious as to why do you top it out there?
That would be my guess based on the SPL numbers that the OS LFU reached in my room.

If I had the measurement tools then that I have now, I'd be able to give you an exact number, but oh well.
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post #2688 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 02:33 PM
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What were the differences between the OS and GH?
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post #2689 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
What were the differences between the OS and GH?
At and below 20hz...substantial to say the least...

That shouldn't be surprising though. The GH is much larger, tuned about 5hz lower, has a driver with more xmax. Also from what I've heard, all things being equal, a TH will have a 3db advantage over a FLH at the cabinet tune.

Last edited by lukeamdman; 10-27-2014 at 05:17 PM.
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post #2690 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 05:23 PM
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Yeah, that is what I thought but at 10hz the sealed 18 with 30mm of x-max should be close to the UXL at 10hz which is 2 dBs or so more than the GH. The GH wins above! Notnyt's should be like having two GH's per one cab at tune! 16hz and above nothing will touch them as single subs are concerned. I get great ULF scores because of my room! If I had a massive room I would have either many more subs or better drivers to get the same scores. I actually have room to double up my drivers!
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post #2691 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Yeah, that is what I thought but at 10hz the sealed 18 with 30mm of x-max should be close to the UXL at 10hz which is 2 dBs or so more than the GH. The GH wins above! Notnyt's should be like having two GH's per one cab at tune! 16hz and above nothing will touch them as single subs are concerned. I get great ULF scores because of my room! If I had a massive room I would have either many more subs or better drivers to get the same scores. I actually have room to double up my drivers!
I'd guess that from 15-30hz, and I think Not may have already said this, that a single GH and one of his cabs were very comparable. For the low end he basically has 4 Ghorns but with better 10hz response. That's just plain crazy.
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post #2692 of 2696 Old 10-27-2014, 10:20 PM
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I thought he said he gets 12 dBs more output than his sealed at 14-16 Hz which means around 8 sealed drivers. What does the GH get over a single? 8 drivers is 18 dBs of output over a single.
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post #2693 of 2696 Old 10-28-2014, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I thought he said he gets 12 dBs more output than his sealed at 14-16 Hz which means around 8 sealed drivers. What does the GH get over a single? 8 drivers is 18 dBs of output over a single.
At 20hz a GH has a 14db advantage over a sealed 5400.

EDIT: That +14db is true for 15hz and 25hz as well.

Last edited by lukeamdman; 10-28-2014 at 07:42 AM.
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post #2694 of 2696 Old 10-28-2014, 07:50 AM
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That is almost 6 sealed LMS 5400's. Still an awesome way to get so much output with one driver. I love the 10hz stuff so why I never went that route, the XXX ported was more interesting to me.
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post #2695 of 2696 Old 10-29-2014, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Now accepting spec lab charts for entry into the 5hz club...



Welcome @beastaudio !

5hz ULF Card:






Impressive sir. 5 star across the board. Great full bandwidth extension!
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post #2696 of 2696 Old Yesterday, 07:22 AM
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