Your Home Theater ULF Score - Page 91 - AVS Forum
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post #2701 of 2729 Old 11-08-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Congrats to Reaction Audio to commendable ULF commercial performance at its price point.



Estimated SI Conversion for the soon to be released new versions of the VTF-15 and VTF-3. Also impressive commercial ULF performance:



The $800 to $1000 prices points are fiercely competitive with these new players. Consumer wins!
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post #2702 of 2729 Old 11-08-2014, 09:58 PM
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meh vtf15h looks nicer and outperforms it for less *shrug*
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post #2703 of 2729 Old 11-08-2014, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
meh vtf15h looks nicer and outperforms it for less *shrug*
I agree except on price. The PV15 is 999.00 shipped, the VTF MK2 is around 1008.00 shipped.
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post #2704 of 2729 Old 11-09-2014, 08:26 AM
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^^ come on BH. I don't think anyone minds spending an extra $9. The VTF15 also looks better than the RA PV15 IMO.
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post #2705 of 2729 Old 11-09-2014, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ come on BH. I don't think anyone minds spending an extra $9. The VTF15 also looks better than the RA PV15 IMO.
Choices, the PV 15 and a McDonald's Big Mac meal or the VTF 15? It is lunch time for me.

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post #2706 of 2729 Old 11-11-2014, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
meh vtf15h looks nicer and outperforms it for less *shrug*
True, but my comments for these two vented subs were in the context of other subs at its price point. From a ULF perspective, compared to their competition, the HSU and RA have been designed to be stronger in that limited (but critical ) bandwidth.
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post #2707 of 2729 Old 11-16-2014, 05:52 PM
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Dom, I just got around to downloading the vibrometer app and checking my tactile feedback. At MV -0 I hit peaks of 7.2 playing electronic music.

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post #2708 of 2729 Old 11-17-2014, 11:07 AM
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Just trying to wrap my head around the ULF Score Calculator and have a question; if you stack your subs, does that change the SI Equivalent? If so, is there any way to know by how much?

Thanks!
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post #2709 of 2729 Old 11-17-2014, 01:08 PM
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If you stacked SI-18's the equivalence would remain the same.

To me equivalence means: everything is kept/tested/used in the same conditions/environment.

Also note: When they say SI-18's... they mean compared to the sealed box version of it. Not an IB, not a port, not a horn, not corner load, not dual-opposed, not stacked, not nothing.

But to answer your question: you could gain 3-6db.
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post #2710 of 2729 Old 11-17-2014, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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@[MENTION];[/MENTION]
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Dom, I just got around to downloading the vibrometer app and checking my tactile feedback. At MV -0 I hit peaks of 7.2 playing electronic music.

This is awesome bass! That is some serious shaking!

I've peaked at 7 before as well during WOTW...trust me, the description "Very Strong, Difficult to Stand" makes perfect sense combined with that movie...

Been wanting to do this for a while, but I think I'm going to start the next chapter of the ULF Thread.

One of the attributes of a great home theater experience is that tactile feedback you experience. This was added into the ULF Card as Tactile Feedback FX. These could be suspended floors, couches, transducers, nearfield placement, riser, etc.

I think it would be very helpful to start cataloging HT Seats (couches, etc.) that have great Tactile Feedback. We could us the Vibration Meter to determine what the resonant frequency is, and then post the make and type of the couch.

If you felt my couch on these big ULF scenes, you'd think it was possessed. My couch has a resonant frequency centered at 15hz, but gets energized in the all important ULF octave between 10 and 20hz:



Wouldn't it be great if you could buy my couch or other couches like it and get that same experience? @basshead81 has always talked about his couch vibrating like crazy, as proof above. The next step would be to run some sine waves to determine what that resonant frequency is. @Madaeel always talks about his couch shaking like crazy, especially in the ULF region. He even gets is in the very lowest of octaves (of course you need a capable enough system to exploit that frequency; his raptors definitely fit the bill!). I'd be very interested to see the graph of his couch...and then I'd go buy one.

Now...unfortunately, my couch is no longer made...at least under the brand I bought it from (Sofa Express) as they went out of business. But I'll list mine anyway:

Sofa Express (discontinued) - 3pc couch, Stock# 81703C, 81703L, 81706T - 15hz centered, 11hz-21hz width

I'll update one of my posts at the beginning of the thread to keep track of the couches so that folks can potentially find and buy these HT Seats for their own room.

If you don't have an Android phone, or don't have the time to plot, just sit on your couch and run through some sine waves and document where it starts (and stops) shaking.

Who knows...there could be a couch right now at Ikea, that is available to everyone that is excited across the entire ULF band...for $500. So if you have one, please post it!
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post #2711 of 2729 Old 11-17-2014, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Just trying to wrap my head around the ULF Score Calculator and have a question; if you stack your subs, does that change the SI Equivalent? If so, is there any way to know by how much?

Thanks!
No stacking them would not change anything because this thread is based on 2m rms data with no boundy gain factored. You could actually see more or less output depending on room gain and room modes/cancellations. This is just a calculator to give one a ballpark idea of a systems capability.
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Dom, I finally got the amp for the transducers and should get you some data this week. I have the vibration meter calibrated so things are almost ready to go.

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post #2713 of 2729 Old 11-17-2014, 10:44 PM
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Hey Dom, I just tried The Balrog scene again and I received a call from upstairs. I went up there and several pots and lids were knocked out of the cupboards. I ran the scene 4 dBs hot! Awesome stuff.
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post #2714 of 2729 Old 11-17-2014, 10:48 PM
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Nice!
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post #2715 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
If you stacked SI-18's the equivalence would remain the same.

To me equivalence means: everything is kept/tested/used in the same conditions/environment.

Also note: When they say SI-18's... they mean compared to the sealed box version of it. Not an IB, not a port, not a horn, not corner load, not dual-opposed, not stacked, not nothing.

But to answer your question: you could gain 3-6db.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
No stacking them would not change anything because this thread is based on 2m rms data with no boundy gain factored. You could actually see more or less output depending on room gain and room modes/cancellations. This is just a calculator to give one a ballpark idea of a systems capability.
Thanks guys!
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post #2716 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 09:04 AM
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Here is my tactile with 4 LMS and 4 UM-15's turned on.

~9ft away
Cement floor, ground level. Carpet with underlay. No riser(s).
Ikea Sofa: wood/cloth.



Resonant Frequency of the room is ~24hz and there is a 90-100hz room null.

The tactile is ~near zero below 90db, across the board.

The tactile continues to climb as the SPL does. Hitting 7.3 at 24hz @ ~117dbZ
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post #2717 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I love this bass! Thanks for helping the cause.

Looks like 3 resonant frequencies in your seats: 35hz (20-50), 80hz (60-90), and 120hz (11-140).

Your couch is has multiple sweet spots!

Do you know the type of Ikea couch it is? I will log this...

@basshead81 , can you measure yours?
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post #2718 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
I love this bass! Thanks for helping the cause.

Looks like 3 resonant frequencies in your seats: 35hz (20-50), 80hz (60-90), and 120hz (11-140).

Your couch is has multiple sweet spots!

Do you know the type of Ikea couch it is? I will log this...

@basshead81, can you measure yours?
how do I measure it?
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post #2719 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 04:57 PM
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You guys have a serious problem....now your measuring the "vibration quotient" of your furniture?!





When you find the most vibrate-y one, please let me know cause I'm gonna run out and get me one.
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post #2720 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Good question...if you're up to it: two ways
  1. Keep your main volume the same, to where you produce 100db
  2. Start playing sine waves from the low end of your range (12hz perhaps for you?) to 80hz or higher
  3. Reset the vibration meter, and play each frequency for 5 seconds, or just enough time you can record the 'Mean' vibration on the android
  4. After each frequency, record the mean, reset the vibration meter, and replay the sine wave
  5. Plot the measurements in Excel, Google Sheets, or some other spreadsheet tool in a chart

The second way is to repeat the above, except keep each frequency at 100db. This means you'll likely have to adjust the MV to match the 100db for each frequency.

Let me know if this makes sense!
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post #2721 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You guys have a serious problem....now your measuring the "vibration quotient" of your furniture?!





When you find the most vibrate-y one, please let me know cause I'm gonna run out and get me one.
That's the whole concept! If you find the right one, you'll likely never have the need for transducers...
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post #2722 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 06:31 PM
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It's this one. Don't buy it though, it will break your spine in half (very uncomfortable). My back is now as strong as an Ox as a result, no pain no gain!
http://futonplanet.com/american-furn...o-futon-frame/
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post #2723 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 06:32 PM
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note: I calibrated my phone so that it read no more than 0.0-0.1 when not under vibration. Which makes sense to me.

It might actually make more sense to use this 3 axis app. It measures the raw g-forces in m/s^2 from the sensor chip; which would make calibration irrelevant.
I would recommend we include both.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...nitoring&hl=en

Level the phone so that it reads: ~0, ~0, ~9.81

As you can see those 8 subs are levitating the futon off the ground while I'm sitting on it. (HELL YEAH! anti-gravity baby!)
I get about +-0.5 m/s^2 on the Z-axis.

note: it has a oscillation to it apparently, weird!

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post #2724 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
It might actually make more sense to use this 3 axis app. It measures the raw g-forces in m/s^2 from the sensor chip; which would make calibration irrelevant.
I would recommend we include both.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...nitoring&hl=en
Thanks BassThatHz, this app has a relatively spartan look and feel but is quite well done! Tip: in the settings, check the "Remove Earth Gravity" option, it will provide you with much more intuitive graphs centered around zero on every axis when the phone or tablet isn't moving.

And with the option unchecked we can actually gauge the sensors' precision as the values should never stray too far from 9.8 m/s^2 when at rest if you're not to far from the surface of the Earth...
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post #2725 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
It's this one. Don't buy it though, it will break your spine in half (very uncomfortable). My back is now as strong as an Ox as a result, no pain no gain!
http://futonplanet.com/american-furn...o-futon-frame/
Nice...I'll add it to the list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
note: I calibrated my phone so that it read no more than 0.0-0.1 when not under vibration. Which makes sense to me.

It might actually make more sense to use this 3 axis app. It measures the raw g-forces in m/s^2 from the sensor chip; which would make calibration irrelevant.
I would recommend we include both.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...nitoring&hl=en

Level the phone so that it reads: ~0, ~0, ~9.81
http://youtu.be/cc86PwBzXw8

As you can see those 8 subs are levitating the futon off the ground while I'm sitting on it. (HELL YEAH! anti-gravity baby!)
I get about +-0.5 m/s^2 on the Z-axis.

note: it has a oscillation to it apparently, weird!
Anti-gravity? You've taken tactile feedback to a whole new level...literally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Thanks BassThatHz, this app has a relatively spartan look and feel but is quite well done! Tip: in the settings, check the "Remove Earth Gravity" option, it will provide you with much more intuitive graphs centered around zero on every axis when the phone or tablet isn't moving.

And with the option unchecked we can actually gauge the sensors' precision as the values should never stray too far from 9.8 m/s^2 when at rest if you're not to far from the surface of the Earth...
I do like this idea of an app. I'd like to find one that's on both the iOS and Android platforms.

The Vibration Meter is cool because of the Mercalli scale and easy of use/understanding.
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post #2726 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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One other thing to note about my experience with my couch's resonant frequency:

I probably had the couch for 4 years before I realized that it even had a ULF resonant frequency. Why? Relatively speaking, it did not shake nearly as much when I did not have nearfield subs (that were capable of ULF) that were directly next to the couch (3ft). My farfield subs were 13ft away, and while I got good pressurization and pant flapping, my couch never felt like it was possessed.

My first nearfield subs were some old Cambridge PSW1s (12in, sealed, 150W). They actually made quite a difference, but certainly not ULF capable. I then switched to Outlaw LFM1-EXs, and that's when I realized the resonant frequency. It was even more apparent when I went to the FV15HPs.

Point being; you may have a hidden gem of a couch in your HT today, but aren't taking full advantage of it because you don't have nearfield sub placement...PVL excites these resonant frequencies, and PVL is strongest in the nearfield. This is just another positive aspect for nearfield sub placement.

Now go move your subs nearfield, and find out!
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post #2727 of 2729 Old 11-18-2014, 09:04 PM
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Dominquez1, I will send you a private message with the data on the Aura Pro Shakers powered by an I Nuke 3000 DSP amp. The data will display what is happening at the MLP and has three elements: Subwoofer SPL, Aura Pro SPL and Vibration meter mean/Peak score.

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post #2728 of 2729 Old 11-19-2014, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Attached is a template to record your Vibration Meter results vs SPL by frequency. Once you input those measurements, it will plot your response in a chart.

Feel free to modify the frequencies to fit how you measure.
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post #2729 of 2729 Old 11-19-2014, 10:34 PM
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The template is a read only file. I was unable to use it. I will make a chart with Microsoft Excel on a different computer.

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