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Old 12-10-2015, 07:09 AM
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Advise Please - 3 subs with MiniDSP and SubEQ HT

Hello, I'm looking for advise please. I have a Denon x4000 with SubEQ HT, and wondering if I should really use SubEQ HT with my (3) subs?
I have (2) HSU regular subs and (1) MBM-12 Mid Bass module (50-150Hz). I also have a MiniDSP 4x2 Balanced.


I'm thinking maybe I should only use one sub output on the AVR and split the signal to both inputs of the MiniDSP, and then use outputs 1,2,3 on the MiniDSP.
(I'm currently using SubEQ HT (not split before the MiniDSP) but questioning if I should just split one AVR sub output as explained above)


The midbass module makes things challenging for me to wrap my head around for best configuration and setup. Currently I set the frequency knob on the regular subs so they cut off above 50Hz and leave the MBM-12 set open (50-150Hz). My subs are all in front with the MBM-12 in the center. My (6) main speakers are set to small with crossover either 120 or 150Hz.


I can't think of the best way to hook these subs up so looking for advise please?

-Tom

Last edited by Tom899; 12-10-2015 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 12-10-2015, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
Hello, I'm looking for advise please. I have a Denon x4000 with SubEQ HT, and wondering if I should really use SubEQ HT with my (3) subs?
I have (2) HSU regular subs and (1) MBM-12 Mid Bass module (50-150Hz). I also have a MiniDSP 4x2 Balanced.


I'm thinking maybe I should only use one sub output on the AVR and split the signal to both inputs of the MiniDSP, and then use outputs 1,2,3 on the MiniDSP.
(I'm currently using SubEQ HT (not split before the MiniDSP) but questioning if I should just split one AVR sub output as explained above)


The midbass module makes things challenging for me to wrap my head around for best configuration and setup. Currently I set the frequency knob on the regular subs so they cut off above 50Hz and leave the MBM-12 set open (50-150Hz). My subs are all in front with the MBM-12 in the center. My (6) main speakers are set to small with crossover either 120 or 150Hz.


I can't think of the best way to hook these subs up so looking for advise please?
That's what I would do, then you could set a LPF for the MBL in the MiniDSP and keep the subs running full range.
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Old 12-10-2015, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
I'm thinking maybe I should only use one sub output on the AVR and split the signal to both inputs of the MiniDSP, and then use outputs 1,2,3 on the MiniDSP.
(I'm currently using SubEQ HT (not split before the MiniDSP) but questioning if I should just split one AVR sub output as explained above)
My understanding of SubEQ HT is that it adjusts level and distance (delay) individually for each (of up to two) subs. The MiniDSP also allows delay and level adjustment but is not automated. So it all depends if you actually want to bother adjusting the levels and delays individually or if you prefer to blindly trust Audyssey. (I have no personal preference on the matter -- this is mainly a trade-off between hassle, confidence and taste).

If you want to use SubEQ HT's capabilities, you *must* use the two AVR outputs independently. If you use only one output and split it, as far as the AVR is concerned, you only use a single sub. Centralizing all delay and level settings to the MiniDSP, while not an automated option, might be conceptually appealing too. Technically, one could obtain the same results this way, too.

Quote:
The midbass module makes things challenging for me to wrap my head around for best configuration and setup. Currently I set the frequency knob on the regular subs so they cut off above 50Hz and leave the MBM-12 set open (50-150Hz). My subs are all in front with the MBM-12 in the center. My (6) main speakers are set to small with crossover either 120 or 150Hz.
I am not familiar with the MBM-12, but it's basically another crossover in the system. I guess the MBM-12 is daisy-chained to the subs? Is it only hooked to one of the two subs? If so, as far as the AVR is concerned, they are bundled into the sub subsystem. As far as the MiniDSP is concerned, if the MBM-12 is daisy-chained to a sub, it sees the MBM-12 as part of the sub it is connected to. However, you mention using the MiniDSP as a splitter to connect the MBM-12, which is another possibility. If you do so, just take care not to combine multiple crossovers (e.g. the one on the MBM-12 itself and the one on the MiniDSP). If you combine multiple crossover, the slope increases in the frequency response and this could cause a dip in overall response.

So if you use the MiniDSP as a splitter to connect the MBM-12, you should either use the MBM-12's HPF knob (if any), or the MiniDSP crossover block, but not the two simultaneously.

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Old 12-11-2015, 06:06 AM
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Thanks Alan and neutro for the great replies and advise. Within this next week I will be experimenting and report back.


neutro, yes currently the MBM-12 is hooked to one of the subs, but while experimenting I'm going try only using one AVR sub output (forget about SubEQ HT) and then run them independent out of the miniDSP. I'm also currently combining the crossovers and you suggest this might cause a dip, so now I will try leaving the subs crossovers off and only using the miniDSP crossovers to control each sub. The MBM-12 is great between 50-150Hz which is wide open/off, and I'll set the two main sub settings on the miniDSP to either 50 or 60Hz. The AVR I'll set to either 120 or 150Hz. I hope this make sense?

Thanks, I appreciate getting advise!

-Tom

Last edited by Tom899; 12-11-2015 at 06:28 AM. Reason: Add content
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Old 12-13-2015, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
Thanks Alan and neutro for the great replies and advise. Within this next week I will be experimenting and report back.


neutro, yes currently the MBM-12 is hooked to one of the subs, but while experimenting I'm going try only using one AVR sub output (forget about SubEQ HT) and then run them independent out of the miniDSP. I'm also currently combining the crossovers and you suggest this might cause a dip, so now I will try leaving the subs crossovers off and only using the miniDSP crossovers to control each sub. The MBM-12 is great between 50-150Hz which is wide open/off, and I'll set the two main sub settings on the miniDSP to either 50 or 60Hz. The AVR I'll set to either 120 or 150Hz. I hope this make sense?

Thanks, I appreciate getting advise!

I found a chance to spend some time with this today. It sounds better than it ever has!The low end is tight and defined, very pleased!
Here are some of my settings.
Denon X4000 sub output 1 split to input 1 and 2 on miniDSP
miniDSP outputs 1,2,3 for my 3 subs.
Crossover switches on subs set to off/out
Subs 1 and 2 miniDSP crossover LPF set to 60Hz
Sub 3 (MBM-12) miniDSP crossover LPF set to 160Hz
AVR speaker crossovers set to 120Hz
AVR LFE mode set to 150Hz
First turned Audyssey off
I gain matched the subs and then one at a time ran REW to calculate filters independently for each sub.
Added each filter set to Parametric EQ Outputs 1,2, and 3
Ran Audyssey.
This is where I'm at. I have a couple of dips that I could probably fix by moving the subs around, which I was prepared to do but it sounds so good that I'm good for now.
Thanks for your help!
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-Tom

Last edited by Tom899; 12-14-2015 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
I gain matched the subs and then one at a time ran REW to calculate filters independently for each sub.
You should EQ all of the subs together as one "sub system".

Anyways, your response looks pretty good, although you have a lot more swings than I'm used to seeing in a bass graph. What does the waterfall and spectrogram look like??
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Old 12-14-2015, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You should EQ all of the subs together as one "sub system".

Anyways, your response looks pretty good, although you have a lot more swings than I'm used to seeing in a bass graph. What does the waterfall and spectrogram look like??
Thanks for the feedback Alan.
At first I did EQ them as one system with the MiniDSP but the results were a little different than EQing them individually. I liked the results a little better by EQing them individually, and then EQing them as a system with Audyssey for the final result. I can still play around in the future after I listen for awhile. It seems there are many possibilities!
Here's the Spectrogram and Waterfall. I used the default parameters which I can change?
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-Tom

Last edited by Tom899; 12-14-2015 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 12:08 PM
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First of all; no smoothing on sub graphs.

Second, try to keep the steps on the left side in 5dB increments.

Waterfall lower limits should be set to the noise floor in your room (could be the 45dB you have, but have you checked?). Window should be set to 450ms.


If you can address those big dips at 35hz and 100hz (they show up really well in the spectrogram), your response would be very good.

Ringing doesn't look horrible according to the spectrogram, but I'll reserve final judgement until I see a waterfall with the correct limits.
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Old 12-14-2015, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
First of all; no smoothing on sub graphs.

Second, try to keep the steps on the left side in 5dB increments.

Waterfall lower limits should be set to the noise floor in your room (could be the 45dB you have, but have you checked?). Window should be set to 450ms.


If you can address those big dips at 35hz and 100hz (they show up really well in the spectrogram), your response would be very good.

Ringing doesn't look horrible according to the spectrogram, but I'll reserve final judgement until I see a waterfall with the correct limits.

Sounds good! Yes, noise floor is 35dB Linier weight with B&K SLM & B&K Mic. The USB UMIK-1 won't go that low. I thought the mic was faulty but found out it is not.
Yes, I do know about no filters for sub graphs, I'll remove it.
I changed the waterfall to 450ms window and 35dB noise floor.
Would the only way to get rid of the dips be to start moving the sub/subs?
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-Tom

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Old 12-14-2015, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
Sounds good! Yes, noise floor is 35dB Linier weight with B&K SLM & B&K Mic. The USB UMIK-1 won't go that low. I thought the mic was faulty but found out it is not.
Yes, I do know about no filters for sub graphs, I'll remove it.
I changed the waterfall to 450ms window and 35dB noise floor.
Would the only way to get rid of the dips be to start moving the sub/subs?
That waterfall is still set to 300ms.

If your noise floor is indeed 35dB, you have an extremely quite room. Is it especially sealed??

If your noise floor is indeed that low, it looks to me like you need to start thinking about some serious bass trapping...you have a ton of ringing going on there.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
That waterfall is still set to 300ms.

If your noise floor is indeed 35dB, you have an extremely quite room. Is it especially sealed??

If your noise floor is indeed that low, it looks to me like you need to start thinking about some serious bass trapping...you have a ton of ringing going on there.

There are two settings. 300ms is the "Time Range", I changed the "Window" setting as you requested to 450ms in the last graph.
So, this time I changed the "Time Range" to 450ms. What should the "Window" setting be?


The room is underground with separate walls built not touching the cement walls. There's 2" of foam board glued to the cement walls, then 2x6 structure, then Roxul sound deadening, and finally 5/8 drywall. It's so quiet my ears hurt. The drywall I'm sure is reflective though.


It sounds really good right now, but always striving for perfection. The bass is very tight and well defined. If it can sound better still, I'm game! Should I get some bass traps?
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Old 12-14-2015, 04:53 PM
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^^^

Yeah, sorry about that...time range is the correct setting.

I am very surprised that you would describe the bass as "very tight and well defined"...according to that waterfall, your ringing is quite bad...bordering on horrendous actually.

Can you post a spectrogram?
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Old 12-14-2015, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Yeah, sorry about that...time range is the correct setting.

I am very surprised that you would describe the bass as "very tight and well defined"...according to that waterfall, your ringing is quite bad...bordering on horrendous actually.

Can you post a spectrogram?

Even though the waterfall doesn't show, it really sounds good, the mid bass module (MBM-12) was a great addition. I always had good bass below 25hz but either lacking or boomy above that range. Now it's great! I think the MiniDSP is such a good product for such little money.
Here's a Spectrogram, I have a dip at 36Hz and 98Hz
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:24 AM
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Just to add some context, below is my waterfall....it is not perfect, but thanks to folks on the forum I was able to get to this.

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Old 12-15-2015, 07:56 AM
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Am I reading the thread correct that you run MiniDSP and then Audyssey on top?
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Just to add some context, below is my waterfall....it is not perfect, but thanks to folks on the forum I was able to get to this.

Well, to be fair...your noise floor is set to 45dB and your sweep level is about 10-15dB less.
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:29 AM
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Am I reading the thread correct that you run MiniDSP and then Audyssey on top?
Some folks like to do it that way. I like to EQ post-Audyssey, otherwise there is no way to add in a house curve or to bump a specific frequency (i.e. improving "chest slam" with a 80-100hz boost).
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, to be fair...your noise floor is set to 45dB and your sweep level is about 10-15dB less.
Yeah, I honestly get confused with all the settings all the times, now you make me want to redo these...I will dig back into the guide and get it right.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Some folks like to do it that way. I like to EQ post-Audyssey, otherwise there is no way to add in a house curve or to bump a specific frequency (i.e. improving "chest slam" with a 80-100hz boost).
Thanks
seems to make more sense to Audyssey first then fine tune using Dirac
I think I need to read post #1 again
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Yeah, I honestly get confused with all the settings all the times, now you make me want to redo these...I will dig back into the guide and get it right.
For waterfalls, you just need to set the lower limit to your noise floor (may very well be 45dB for you) and measure around 85dB. I was only pointing out why yours looked so much better than Tom899's...his noise floor is (reportedly) 35dB and he measure around 85-90dB so his ringing is going to look quite a bit worse.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:56 PM
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Thanks
seems to make more sense to Audyssey first then fine tune using Dirac
I think I need to read post #1 again
Dirac?? If you have both Audyssey and Dirac I think I would just stick with Dirac.
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:53 AM
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Hello all,
Can I use two simple splitters for the two sub pre-out in AVR for 4 subs?
Or it's better to get the MiniDSP 2x4? Thank you!
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello all,
Can I use two simple splitters for the two sub pre-out in AVR for 4 subs?
Or it's better to get the MiniDSP 2x4? Thank you!
If you don't need the equalizing, filtering or level adjustment capabilities of the MiniDSP, then there is no problem with using as many splitters as you need instead.
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:07 PM
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Hi Neutro
Thanks for the excellent write up on #1
You say you didn't use the EQ capability of the MiniDSp ( At this time that may have changed)
Can I ask your reason for buying the unit?
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Old 01-26-2016, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
You say you didn't use the EQ capability of the MiniDSp ( At this time that may have changed)
Can I ask your reason for buying the unit?
Oh, the writeup was simply on how to use the MiniDSP for other uses than EQ (EQ is quite a large topic in itself). I actually do use the MiniDSP for EQing the sub. I first use Audyssey to EQ the response flat, then add a house curve to enhance the deep-end a bit. I also once or twice tried adding a mid-bass peak during a party
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post
If you don't need the equalizing, filtering or level adjustment capabilities of the MiniDSP, then there is no problem with using as many splitters as you need instead.
Thank you for your quick respond.
How about use Audyssey from the AVR to do equalizing, filtering, level adjustment?
Is MiniDSP does a better job other than Audyssey?
I am not properly educated with these HT stuff, so please keep teach me.
Thank you for your time!
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:59 AM
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I`m sorry if this have been asked or explained before, but I did not find the answer when searching the thread.

I am using a PA-amp for my DIY subwoofers. Should I not apply a high pass filter in the Crossover block to protect my drivers..?
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Old 01-27-2016, 03:00 AM
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Double post.
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Old 01-27-2016, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Oh, the writeup was simply on how to use the MiniDSP for other uses than EQ (EQ is quite a large topic in itself). I actually do use the MiniDSP for EQing the sub. I first use Audyssey to EQ the response flat, then add a house curve to enhance the deep-end a bit. I also once or twice tried adding a mid-bass peak during a party
Thanks neutro for the quick reply
The reason I asked is that I think I have the same problem that you had, as in too much sub woofer gain to satisfy Audyssy's pre calibration 75db level.

I have 2 x Ken Kreisel DXD-808 Quattro stacks which when set at the recommended reference gain give too much output.
My solution was to buy 2 x -10db attenuators fitted into the sub inputs but this resulted in levels too low for Audyssey, even -6 db caused problems.

Your application of the miniDSP looks like the ideal solution to my gain problem with the added benefit of perhaps using EQ

There is still the question of using the mini DSP pre or post Audyssey

If you feed the input with Audyssey off,EQ with the mini DSP then run Audyssey the mini DSP input signal will surely have changed making every thing null and void?

So in my mind you should run Audyssey first then the miniDSP if so inclined,I may of course be missing something obvious?
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Old 01-27-2016, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Thanks neutro for the quick reply
The reason I asked is that I think I have the same problem that you had, as in too much sub woofer gain to satisfy Audyssy's pre calibration 75db level.

I have 2 x Ken Kreisel DXD-808 Quattro stacks which when set at the recommended reference gain give too much output.
My solution was to buy 2 x -10db attenuators fitted into the sub inputs but this resulted in levels too low for Audyssey, even -6 db caused problems.
Why not just turn down the gain on the subs?



Quote:
There is still the question of using the mini DSP pre or post Audyssey

If you feed the input with Audyssey off,EQ with the mini DSP then run Audyssey the mini DSP input signal will surely have changed making every thing null and void?

So in my mind you should run Audyssey first then the miniDSP if so inclined,I may of course be missing something obvious?
Two schools of thought on this;

  • EQ pre-Audyssey to present Audyssey with the flattest response possible requiring Audyssey to do less work - this usually is the best method if you are aiming for a flat bass response and you have very large peaks that Audyssey is having trouble dealing with.
  • EQ post-Audyssey is usually the best method if Audyssey is giving you a fairly flat response on it's own and you would like to "un-flatten" the response to your preference (i.e. adding a house curve, mid-bass bump, increase in ULF, etc.).
Alan P is offline  
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