Tutorial: Dual sub integration using the MiniDSP - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 06:20 AM
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MiniDSP unbalanced / balanced / RevA / RevB

Thanks so much for this awesome resource! I just received my miniDSP 2x4 RevB and have begun fooling around with REW. Turns out I have a couple of really nasty nulls in my room (bad dimensions) that aren't fixed with relocating the MLP or sub.

I'm contemplating buying another sub to fill the null(s), but am making bass traps first.

My question--and this has me kind of worried--did I buy the correct miniDSP? I'm assuming I wanted the unbalanced version, as I'm using it for sub use, not mains, and I chose RevB because...I thought I read something about some subs requiring more V? But then I think they're talking about OUTPUT, not input...

I have an SVS PB-2000 and can't seem to find what V it is expecting.

My room is dismantled right now to build traps (insulation everywhere!!) so I can't "just hook it up and see".

Can someone straighten this out for me? Will my miniDSP 2x4 RevB work between my Onkyo 805 and my SVS PB2000?

Thanks so much! REW is loads of fun--I can't wait to delve into the miniDSP!
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post #182 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 07:19 AM
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This is great -- flagged for if/when I get a miniDSP.

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post #183 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by McStyvie

I meant auto Rew EQ. Same page you are talking about from what I can tell.
Where do you upload the filters on your dsp? I use the 2-way advanced, which allows me to add peq on input 1 and or 2, and in addition on each out... 1-4.
I use input 1 and 2 for the filters from Rew for the response from 15-90hz. Where can I add the house curve on top of that?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

What you would do then is rerun your eq for your basic response in REW and adjust the settings as I outlined. This will cause REW's eq filters to eq to the house curve. I don't know how to add one after you already have your eq in place. The only other way I know of, other than incorporating the house curve into your eq settings from the start, would be to click on the parametric eq on the miniDSP audio settings tab. For filter type, select low shelf, set frequency to 40, gain to 6 db, q to .7 See what that does for you and adjust/measure from there. If you want to incorporate the house curve into the base eq setting that you download to the miniDSP, see post 159.

Here is my un-eq'd response, and my response after the house curve that I put in. This is for non reference level listening:


Are you concerned about amp power and headroom with those big low frequency lifts? I read from some of the senior posters here in the forum that a 3db lift below 30hz effectively consumes half of your amps rated power. It doesn't look like you have a lot of offsetting cuts. You might want to look into whether you might risk overdriving the amp or sacrificing headroom.

I am no expert -- but this is what I have gleaned from a lot of the experts on this forum.

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post #184 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
Thanks so much for this awesome resource! I just received my miniDSP 2x4 RevB and have begun fooling around with REW. Turns out I have a couple of really nasty nulls in my room (bad dimensions) that aren't fixed with relocating the MLP or sub.

I'm contemplating buying another sub to fill the null(s), but am making bass traps first.

My question--and this has me kind of worried--did I buy the correct miniDSP? I'm assuming I wanted the unbalanced version, as I'm using it for sub use, not mains, and I chose RevB because...I thought I read something about some subs requiring more V? But then I think they're talking about OUTPUT, not input...

I have an SVS PB-2000 and can't seem to find what V it is expecting.

My room is dismantled right now to build traps (insulation everywhere!!) so I can't "just hook it up and see".

Can someone straighten this out for me? Will my miniDSP 2x4 RevB work between my Onkyo 805 and my SVS PB2000?

Thanks so much! REW is loads of fun--I can't wait to delve into the miniDSP!
Yes, you have the correct MiniDSP.

If you can't fix a null by moving the MLP, it's probably not a null. Do you have a graph you can post?
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post #185 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Are you concerned about amp power and headroom with those big low frequency lifts? I read from some of the senior posters here in the forum that a 3db lift below 30hz effectively consumes half of your amps rated power. It doesn't look like you have a lot of offsetting cuts. You might want to look into whether you might risk overdriving the amp or sacrificing headroom.

I am no expert -- but this is what I have gleaned from a lot of the experts on this forum.
Typically, a 10db boost at 15hz is a big no-no, but if you read McStyvie's post he points out that "This is for non reference level listening." He knows what he's doing in regards to headroom, and only listens below reference with his extreme house curve engaged.
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post #186 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Typically, a 10db boost at 15hz is a big no-no, but if you read McStyvie's post he points out that "This is for non reference level listening." He knows what he's doing in regards to headroom, and only listens below reference with his extreme house curve engaged.
Fair enough -- I am always learning from you all. Thanks!

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post #187 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 07:47 AM
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Slightly off topic .... but about miniDSP and sub integration.

If I made a move from using a Velodyne SMS-1 to a MiniDSP 2x4 for sub integration and eq'ing ... am I gaining anything? I have a Seaton SubM HP+ Master and Slave setup (so while it operates as a dual system -- it is really one sub from the POV of my preamp). I also will be using REW to set filters in either case.

As a pure eq'ing device -- is there anything that MiniDSP can do that the SMS-1 cannot do (or not do well).

Just for reference -- here is what I accomplished by just just playing around with the SMS (which is pretty new to me). My USB mic (a UMM-6) arrives today -- so I can see what REW can do to help. First pic is with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 engaged but no SMS EQ'ing. Second is with SMS EQ'ing. MVC is set at -17db (my typical listening level), LFE is +3db hot at the preamp versus Audyssey setting, DynamicEQ is on and set to 0db offest.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20140720_102144.jpg (186.9 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20140719_205449.jpg (196.8 KB, 12 views)

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post #188 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 07:59 AM
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Well Skrill, I don't know how you could get a much flatter response than that!

I'm not familiar with the SMS, but once you have REW up and running I'll be curious to know how close the response reported by the SMS is to your actual response. Until you measure with REW and your UMM-6 I can't really answer your question on whether or not the MiniDSP would do a better job.

Just an observation - you say you have Dyn EQ on, and it looks to be in your first graph. However, in the second graph it looks like you EQ'ed out all of the bass effects of Dyn EQ. Is there a reason you would want to do that??

You should be calibrating with the SMS with Dyn EQ off and then turn it on for listening, that way you will benefit from Dyn EQ's intended effects.
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post #189 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well Skrill, I don't know how you could get a much flatter response than that!

I'm not familiar with the SMS, but once you have REW up and running I'll be curious to know how close the response reported by the SMS is to your actual response. Until you measure with REW and your UMM-6 I can't really answer your question on whether or not the MiniDSP would do a better job.

Just an observation - you say you have Dyn EQ on, and it looks to be in your first graph. However, in the second graph it looks like you EQ'ed out all of the bass effects of Dyn EQ. Is there a reason you would want to do that??

You should be calibrating with the SMS with Dyn EQ off and then turn it on for listening, that way you will benefit from Dyn EQ's intended effects.
Alan -- thank you for the tip -- I will try that. Turn off DEQ -- EQ to flat as possible, then turn it back on and let it set the house curve. I am still climbing the learning curve on this stuff. I really did not know what I was doing other than just trying to make the curve flat -- I never thought about that maybe the reason it wasn't flat was because DEQ was trying to do what it's supposed to do.

One note -- any thoughts on that dip just above the 80hz crossover point. I know that is out of the control of my parametic EQ'ing -- but could I get that flatter by playing with phase perhaps? L/R mains are B&W Nautilus 803s.

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post #190 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Are you concerned about amp power and headroom with those big low frequency lifts? I read from some of the senior posters here in the forum that a 3db lift below 30hz effectively consumes half of your amps rated power. It doesn't look like you have a lot of offsetting cuts. You might want to look into whether you might risk overdriving the amp or sacrificing headroom.

I am no expert -- but this is what I have gleaned from a lot of the experts on this forum.
My dual subs have around 105-108 dB peak output capability around 16 Hz, and over 110 from 20 Hz on up. Probably more with real source material rather than a sine wave sweep. I listen at 15 below reference, which normally means maximum peaks of 100 dB. Of course, with subs running hot and a house curve, that level could be closer to 110 dB, which is still pretty close in line with the subs output capabilities. If I listened at full reference, such a house curve while running the subs 6 dB hot would overdrive them at times. When you exceed a subs output capabilities, they don't suddenly shut down or turn off and stop producing bass. If you exceed their output, they are either going to stumble a little bit, in the form of driver noise or port noise, or just stop getting louder due to the built in limiters. I have watched WotW pod scene at -5 with this eq and it sounded clean.

Also, that was my first, and rather hurried, eq. I have since improved the non eq response a bit and slightly toned down the low end...still flat/slightly elevated to just under 16 Hz.

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post #191 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Alan -- thank you for the tip -- I will try that. Turn off DEQ -- EQ to flat as possible, then turn it back on and let it set the house curve. I am still climbing the learning curve on this stuff. I really did not know what I was doing other than just trying to make the curve flat -- I never thought about that maybe the reason it wasn't flat was because DEQ was trying to do what it's supposed to do.

One note -- any thoughts on that dip just above the 80hz crossover point. I know that is out of the control of my parametic EQ'ing -- but could I get that flatter by playing with phase perhaps? L/R mains are B&W Nautilus 803s.
You can take care of that in short order with the sub distance tweak.

Basically (after you get REW up and running) you adjust the sub distance in the AVR until you get the smoothest transition through the crossover region. The correct sub distance is almost never the actual physical distance.

I will adjust the distance in 1 foot increments until I get the smoothest transition, then fine-tune with .1 foot increments.
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post #192 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You can take care of that in short order with the sub distance tweak.

Basically (after you get REW up and running) you adjust the sub distance in the AVR until you get the smoothest transition through the crossover region. The correct sub distance is almost never the actual physical distance.

I will adjust the distance in 1 foot increments until I get the smoothest transition, then fine-tune with .1 foot increments.
I will try it again. Audyssey sets the distance at 18.2 in my system (several feet more than actual, probably close to 5' more -- which is expected with the SMS-1 in the signal chain). When I add or subtract in 1' increments -- the dip gets worse. I can move it a few 0.1's.

But I will re-run Audysseey, turn off DEQ, use REW and SMS-1 to get a pretty flat base, then add back in DEQ and see how it looks (and most importantly sounds).

Thanks again for the tips!

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post #193 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 11:59 AM
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You may have to go a few feet out to see a difference - even 5 or 6 feet in either direction.

If it doesn't get better, than yours is the rare case where Audyssey got it right and you may be sitting in a null. The only cure for that is moving the sub or moving your MLP.
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post #194 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 01:07 PM
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Looking again at your "before" graph, that 80hz dip isn't really much of a dip at all, it's more of a hump around 70hz....I think the dip is being exaggerated by you pulling down the lower frequencies. I think if the distance tweak doesn't fix it for ya, REW + MiniDSP surely will.

You'll be able to pull down the hump at 70hz and should end up with a almost perfect house curve. Heck, you could probably do it now since you now know to do your EQ'ing with Dyn EQ off.
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post #195 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, you have the correct MiniDSP.

If you can't fix a null by moving the MLP, it's probably not a null. Do you have a graph you can post?
Thanks for putting my mind at ease. I mispoke about the null. I can affect it by moving the MLP, but moving the *sub* seems to have very little effect.

I am somewhat unwilling to deviate from the center of the room width-wise, and the MLP is best around 38% of the length (from the rear of the room).

I'm quite busy ATM so it'll be a bit before I can post a graph--but appreciate your offer and will take you up on it.
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post #196 of 206 Old 07-24-2014, 08:53 PM
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HDGaming - yeah, the only way you're going to fix a null with sub placement is with multiple subs. If you're unwilling to move the MLP, you're just gonna have to live with it I'm afraid.

What are the dimensions of your room, and is it sealed or open to other rooms? Where is the sub currently placed?

Pics and/or a diagram of your room would be helpful.
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post #197 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
HDGaming - yeah, the only way you're going to fix a null with sub placement is with multiple subs. If you're unwilling to move the MLP, you're just gonna have to live with it I'm afraid.

What are the dimensions of your room, and is it sealed or open to other rooms? Where is the sub currently placed?

Pics and/or a diagram of your room would be helpful.
Room is 120" by 196.5" by 88". The room is sealed--double walled--double solid core doors. The "room layout.jpg" below doesn't show the window on the top wall, the door on the bottom wall left, or the closet for the equipment rack on the bottom right. I'm working on it.

Running REW I found the best height for my MLP was around 39" from the floor. Got steadily worse until 50" was abysmal. Moving the MLP forward and backward "move MLP depth.png" I found 64" from the back wall (top green) to be the smoothest. Then weeks later I continued my testing at 74" (38% rule perhaps?) though I'm now not sure why as 64" was superior...

"Move Sub along wall" had me running the sub toward me along the right wall until it was comically close to the MLP--perhaps not doable. It ended up looking the flattest at 64" off the front wall "sub along side wall right".

Fearing this didn't seem a very viable placement I found the flattest response along the front wall placing the sub at about 31.5" off the left wall, and 48-52" into the room "best along front wall".

Finally I temporarily placed 3 bags of Roxul safe n sound in the corners. Front left and right and back left "adding roxul".

Adding the Roxul did some pretty funky stuff from 60Hz upward that I don't understand. I've also included a waterfall comparison "adding roxul waterfall".
Gear: UMIK-1 with horizontal orientation and calibration file
Onkyo 805
SVS PB-2000 at 75dB

So.....what insight does any of this provide--if any? How close could I get this response to flat without a second sub and just using placement and the miniDSP do you think? Would dual subs in such a small room (damn you ceiling!!!) even be beneficial?

I wish I hadn't blown my budget on a single sub! Doh!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg room layout.jpg (131.9 KB, 7 views)
File Type: png move sub along wall.png (182.8 KB, 6 views)
File Type: png move mlp depth.png (96.6 KB, 9 views)
File Type: png best along front wall.png (49.7 KB, 7 views)
File Type: png adding roxul.png (57.4 KB, 7 views)
File Type: png adding roxul waterfall.png (574.8 KB, 9 views)
File Type: png sub on right wall.png (40.6 KB, 7 views)
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post #198 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 10:10 AM
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Well HD, you got a serious problem there...one that people smarter than me are going to have to help you with.

Have you posted these graphs in this thread? How about over in the REW section at HTS?

Seems like no matter what you do, you've got a 15-25db null centered around 45-50hz...and it's a nasty one for sure. Something is amiss here, whether it be your measurement setup (doesn't seem to be), your AVR settings (unlikely) or the sub itself is hard to say.

Post your graphs up in those two places above and you should find some smart folks to help you out!
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post #199 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 10:14 AM
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HD,

Phase on sub set to "0"?

Crossover set as high as it will go?

Sub cable going into "LFE"?


Basic questions I know, but I gotta ask.
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post #200 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
HD,

Phase on sub set to "0"?

Crossover set as high as it will go?

Sub cable going into "LFE"?


Basic questions I know, but I gotta ask.
No worries--I'll answer (nearly) anything you ask me!

Phase is 0. Crossover is set to 120Hz (highest) and cable is indeed going to LFE. Anything else I could have missed?

This is the first time I've combed through all my tests to collect pictures--I will have to look at posting in the other threads you've mentioned as well.

What do you think the likelihood is that the sub is not performing properly? It is brand new and under warranty. I suppose hooking up my old sub and running a test (never bothered) could confirm if it is indeed the room or the sub, now wouldn't it? Or I guess I could measure the sub in a different room...

Would that rule out the sub?
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post #201 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 10:55 AM
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Is your old sub respectable? If so, then yes, it should definitely tell you whether or not it's the sub or the room. Moving the new sub to a different room would probably show some results as well....whatever's easier for you.

Since you measured at very different MLP positions and basically got the same response, I suspect it's not the room. I could be wrong...like I said, someone a lot smarter than me should be diagnosing here.
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post #202 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 10:56 AM
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Also, it would help if this wasn't buried in a "MiniDSP" thread. You should post your issue in either of the places I linked to above or start your own thread in the subwoofer forum here on AVS.
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post #203 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Also, it would help if this wasn't buried in a "MiniDSP" thread. You should post your issue in either of the places I linked to above or start your own thread in the subwoofer forum here on AVS.
Fair enough. I will return here when I've sorted things out and am ready to use the miniDSP. Moved my woes over here:

Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
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post #204 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 11:38 AM
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Good deal, HD. The first thing they're going to do is yell at you about your graph limits.

See here:
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs

The only thing I think you've got wrong is that it should go to 200hz, not 120hz.

Good luck!
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post #205 of 206 Old 07-25-2014, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Good deal, HD. The first thing they're going to do is yell at you about your graph limits.

See here:
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs

The only thing I think you've got wrong is that it should go to 200hz, not 120hz.

Good luck!
Too funny--I've read that thread quite a bit in the past, and thought I'd set up my graphs correctly! Thanks for the heads up--I'll make them 200Hz in the future...
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post #206 of 206 Old 08-23-2014, 08:23 AM
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Thanks neutron for your dual sub write-up,
I ordered a MiniDSP 2x4 and 2 way advanced plugin, should be here next week.
I will be working with two HSU subs and a Yamaha AVR.
I have the latest version of REW. I have an older laptop with Windows 7 but no HDMI
I have a Behringer UCA222 USB audio interface instead of using the laptop soundcard
have a Parts Express USB OmniMiv V2 with cal file


I hope I can get all this to work....
Thanks,
Tom

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