Modestly priced subwoofer for huge space - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I live in a Villa with an open floor plan. My home theater setup is in the great room that is 22'x16' with a vaulted ceiling that peaks at 14'. Additionally, there is a 14'x10' loft upstairs and a 7'x7' opening off the great room that leads to a dining room. I'm a relative noob to all of this and I'm trying to find the best compromise between cost and performance. Compounding the problem is the fact that my mains are small bookshelf speakers (Klipsch RB-41 II + Klipsch RC-42 II Center). Right now I'm using a 12" Dayton sub tht's OK I guess, but nothing special at all. I'd like to stay under $800. Any hope of getting half way decent bass with my set up?
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post #2 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 01:14 PM
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That's a huge space to pressurize. Ported is the way to go but your budget is way low.

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post #3 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 01:53 PM
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A Pair of Premier Acoustics PA-150s will give you good output, better overall room coverage if placed properly and good sound quality for under $800. Keep in mind these are still budget subs and therefore deep bass extension will be limited to 25hz or so.

http://www.acousticsounddesign.com/core/view_BigProduct.cfm?pid=1825&sc=28

Data Bass Review

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post #4 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post

A Pair of Premier Acoustics PA-150s will give you good output, better overall room coverage if placed properly and good sound quality for under $800. Keep in mind these are still budget subs and therefore deep bass extension will be limited to 25hz or so.

http://www.acousticsounddesign.com/core/view_BigProduct.cfm?pid=1825&sc=28

Data Bass Review

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=48

+1, this. You would want to call up acousticsounddesign and ask them for a price break to get a pair for $800 shipped, but they would likely give it to you. I'd say the PA-150s are your best bet.
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post #5 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies. I know my budget is relatively low, especially for the size of my room, and I'm under no illusion that I will be able to create perfect bass with my budget and that space. I'm just looking to get the best possible within my budget. I hadn't considered two subwoofers. I only have one good place to put a sub really (behind a large chair in the front corner of the room), but I might be able to work in a second. What if it were placed at the back of the room behind the listening position? I'm assuming that might not be good since I have small bookshelves as mains which will probably require a high crossover point. Wouldn't that lead to localization of sound? Placement might definitely be an issue as I don't have a lot of places to put one let alone two. It might be an issue even with only one sub. I don't know. I'm not real knowledgeable on the best placement.

Being pretty new to all this, I'm not sure if I'd prefer extension or overall output. I've never really heard many good systems to know what the difference between the two sounds like. I'm just looking for the best bang for the buck while trying to maintain the most accurate sound possible.

I've never heard of the Premiere Acoustics. but I'll definitely check them out.
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post #6 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I should also mention that my listening habits are 60% movies and 40% music.
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post #7 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 07:02 PM
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A suggestion I would consider in your circumstances is to go one better quality SW with good extension now, and then another in the future stacked if you need more headroom. I have done this in the past and it worked out quite well considering my lack of WAF placement options. With your budget I would gravitate towards the XV15 by PSA. http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x I think this would be a much better route myself, don’t give up the low stuff.

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post #8 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 07:02 PM
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are you open to DIY at all? $800 is a pretty good budget for two good subs and an amp.
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post #9 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 07:44 PM
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Good suggestion,

Rythmik has good kits subwoofer driver and amp in the 600 range, Boxes can be ordered from Diy Sound group
I would recommend the 15 inch kit in a ported enclosure
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/DS1500ci.html

Parts express kits
http://www.parts-express.com/cat/subwoofer-system-kits/287
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are you open to DIY at all? $800 is a pretty good budget for two good subs and an amp.
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post #10 of 77 Old 08-31-2013, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockDawg View Post

My home theater setup is in the great room that is 22'x16' with a vaulted ceiling that peaks at 14'. Additionally, there is a 14'x10' loft upstairs and a 7'x7' opening off the great room that leads to a dining room.

almost the same dilemma i am in. my room is around 11,000 cubic feet, and open to an extremely large kitchen with a 18 foot ceiling. so even worse then you.
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are you open to DIY at all? $800 is a pretty good budget for two good subs and an amp.

DIY is the only way to go for that budget and requirements. can you design a box and build it ? or know a good box builder ?

thats what i did... every sub i tried, no matter how many people raved about it, was weak in my large room. ended up getting a bunch of cheap blowout sale stuff from Parts Express and MCM Electronics as an experiment, and used a few leftover Elemental Designs plate amps i had after they closed. eight T3 Audio 12 inch subs, and two 21 inch MCM Electronics subs. putting 4 each of the T3's on a 500 watt RMS amp x 2, and driving the two 21's with a 1000 watt RMS amp. the drivers were chosen for their low Fs... i like it really deep and low, dont care much about extreme loud.

mounted on my back wall, the cabinet is massive... but takes very little floor space. approx 2 feet deep, 14 wide. goes almost to the top of the 12 foot ceiling.

cost me around $700, including the guesstimate value of the amps.

i am not lacking bass anymore. in fact, it has never been cranked... i am too much in fear of my windows to do that. biggrin.gif overkill ? yup... thats why it is going to move to a friends house that has an even larger room. i will build a milder version for myself.
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post #11 of 77 Old 09-01-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

A suggestion I would consider in your circumstances is to go one better quality SW with good extension now, and then another in the future stacked if you need more headroom. I have done this in the past and it worked out quite well considering my lack of WAF placement options. With your budget I would gravitate towards the XV15 by PSA. http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x I think this would be a much better route myself, don’t give up the low stuff.

It's funny you should mention that. After checking out the dbass link kesando posted, that's exactly what I've been considering. That very sub woofer with the mind set that I would later add a second.

I am not a woodworker and don't have the tools necessary to go the DIY route. I was checking out some of those kits and I don't know... I've never been very good with stuff like that and I'd be pissed if I spent that kind of money and messed up the finish. Like I said, I don't expect my budget to adequately fill the needs of my space. I just want to get something I can build upon at least.
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post #12 of 77 Old 09-01-2013, 04:14 PM
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^^^ Hey nothing wrong with that. Go with a good vented designed sub and build upon that as you say. I can’t emphasize how good, good bass is.

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post #13 of 77 Old 09-01-2013, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Yah, that's just it. I don't know how good good bass is because I've most like likely never heard it. None of my friends or family are into audio. I've been reading a lot of threads on here and talking it over with my wife (who's surprisingly flexible about integrating a sub into our decor) and I'm considering increasing my budget. Now I'm wondering, which would be more ideal, going with two XV15's or one XV30. I mention those two just as an example. I've not yet made up my mind on which sub(s) though I have been reading good things about the XV15.
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post #14 of 77 Old 09-01-2013, 09:08 PM
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Two XV-15s will definitely be better than a single XV30. You'll get a slight boost in output, but more importantly, duals will allow you to get a flatter response than a single. Downside is that you do have to pay a bit more for a pair of XV15s though.
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post #15 of 77 Old 09-01-2013, 09:50 PM
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Two XV-15s will definitely be better than a single XV30. You'll get a slight boost in output, but more importantly, duals will allow you to get a flatter response than a single. Downside is that you do have to pay a bit more for a pair of XV15s though.

I think the OP has only one placement option but his wife is totally open to what he puts there. This is why I mentioned stacking the dual XV15’s which looks like is doable in a single swipe now. If he should move, dual would be on hand if the option of parting them was feasible.
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Yah, that's just it. I don't know how good good bass is because I've most like likely never heard it. None of my friends or family are into audio.

Been there, done that, know the feeling. I have no doubt after experiencing good bass you’re most likely going to look forward to it. It changes the whole HT experiance.

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post #16 of 77 Old 09-01-2013, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I may actually have three placement locations now after talking with the wife, but I have to layout some measurements to see how big it will actually big in the room. The third possible location would be behind the couch. Not sure if that's a wise place to put one.

After thinking about it, I now also wonder about my primary location. It is in a corner with a large "chair-and-a-half" in front of it diagnonally. The corner walls and the chair create a triangle so that the only opening is up. Is that OK?
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post #17 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 02:36 AM
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What a wife!cool.gif Check each one out and see what you come up with. All locations are future suspects until proven wrong and many find nearfeild locations a very good location especially when other locations are utilized at the same time.

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post #18 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 05:39 AM
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A couple of SVS PB-1000s will do the job, but will cost a bit over $900 shipped with SVS's dual sub discount. Also, the PC12-NSD which is basically the same sub as the PB12-NSD is on sale right now for $699 shipped. With the discount, two of these will come in a bit less than dual XV15s. That said, the XV15s do have more output particularly above 30hz.
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post #19 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 05:55 AM
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If you don't mind a large sub, you could try a horn sub or a tapped horn sub. You can build one cheap and put a cheap amp on it for about 500 bux total. The spl you get out of them is crazy!

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post #20 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 06:46 AM
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Chase has a sale for the VS 18.1 for $ 600. This is a fairly large sub and it can provide the output to fill a large space.

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post #21 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 07:01 AM
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Chase has a sale for the VS 18.1 for $ 600. This is a fairly large sub and it can provide the output to fill a large space.

Its 890.00 shipped then you need amp to power it. Still a solid sub for its price! Did you order that mic yet wink.gif
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post #22 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 07:02 AM
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A couple of SVS PB-1000s will do the job, but will cost a bit over $900 shipped with SVS's dual sub discount. Also, the PC12-NSD which is basically the same sub as the PB12-NSD is on sale right now for $699 shipped. With the discount, two of these will come in a bit less than dual XV15s. That said, the XV15s do have more output particularly above 30hz.

and below 20hz...you need 2 PC-12's to equal the output of one XV15 @ 16hz. The XV subs do not roll of as fast below port tune, so useable output down to 12.5hz can be achieved.

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post #23 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 07:21 AM
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and below 20hz...you need 2 PC-12's to equal the output of one XV15 @ 16hz. The XV subs do not roll of as fast below port tune, so useable output down to 12.5hz can be achieved.


Yeah that’s what I was going to mention. I thought up higher it was a dB difference or so? Anyway that’s a significant difference under 20hz.

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post #24 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 02:13 PM
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and below 20hz...you need 2 PC-12's to equal the output of one XV15 @ 16hz. The XV subs do not roll of as fast below port tune, so useable output down to 12.5hz can be achieved.


When you factor in distortion, the PC12 and XV15 have about an even amount of 16 Hz bass. Yes, the XV15 has double the 16 Hz bass of the PB12 (supposedly the same as the PC12), but it has more than twice as much distortion. That is particularly severe at 16 Hz, as distortion at that frequency would be much more audible than the signal frequency itself. With regards to deep bass, they are basically even.
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post #25 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 02:16 PM
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When you factor in distortion, the PC12 and XV15 have about an even amount of 16 Hz bass. Yes, the XV15 has double the 16 Hz bass of the PB12 (supposedly the same as the PC12), but it has more than twice as much distortion. That is particularly severe at 16 Hz, as distortion at that frequency would be much more audible than the signal frequency itself. With regards to deep bass, they are basically even.

Are you able to hear any of that distortion though? Just because it's measured doesn't mean someone will hear it. And you know that too.

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post #26 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

When you factor in distortion, the PC12 and XV15 have about an even amount of 16 Hz bass. Yes, the XV15 has double the 16 Hz bass of the PB12 (supposedly the same as the PC12), but it has more than twice as much distortion. That is particularly severe at 16 Hz, as distortion at that frequency would be much more audible than the signal frequency itself. With regards to deep bass, they are basically even.

It does not matter...you cant hear it. I have the sub and have tested it you have not. there is no audible difference in the sub from max output compared to turning it down 5db other than things shake more. You can preach all that bs you want, but thats all it is. If the distortion was audible jim would of set the dsp program to limit the output sooner. the sub has been tested and egineered by experts. if you know so god damn much then start building and selling your own subs.
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post #27 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Would there be much difference in output between between two XS15's and XV15's in my space? I've read that ported is better for large spaces, but how much difference does it make? The smaller size of the XS15 would be easier to integrate into my decor, but I don't that to be the determining factor.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

It does not matter...you cant hear it. I have the sub and have tested it you have not. there is no audible difference in the sub from max output compared to turning it down 5db other than things shake more. You can preach all that bs you want, but thats all it is. If the distortion was audible jim would of set the dsp program to limit the output sooner. the sub has been tested and egineered by experts. if you know so god damn much then start building and selling your own subs.

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post #29 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RockDawg View Post

Would there be much difference in output between between two XS15's and XV15's in my space? I've read that ported is better for large spaces, but how much difference does it make? The smaller size of the XS15 would be easier to integrate into my decor, but I don't that to be the determining factor.

it would take 2 xs15's to equal the output of 1 xv15 from 15-30hz but would have almost 5db more output in the 40-63 hz area.
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post #30 of 77 Old 09-02-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Are you able to hear any of that distortion though? Just because it's measured doesn't mean someone will hear it. And you know that too.

CEA-2010 output testing already has distortion limits in placed based on a *massive* amount of audibility research done over the last 2 decades. These distortion limits have been primarily developed by Don Keele over the course of many years of research. The evolution of this process is contained in his AES presentations. If you see the output data for any subwoofer measured at any frequency using the CEA-2010 method....you are reading the amount of output that was measured without concerns regarding the audibility of harmonic distortions. In this specific case you can even look at the 16hz data for both systems with and without the distortion limits in place.

XV15 with limits in place 98.1dB @16hz. With no limits in place(same----the XV15 just stopped getting louder before it exceeds any CEA-2010 threshold)
pb12 with limits in place 93.3dB @16hz With no limits in place 94.6dB with 41.6% distortion.

Having said this----one of my biggest pet peeves is focusing on a single value(freq) from CEA-2010 when comparing subwoofers. This will tell you next to nothing about how the two subwoofers will actually sound in my opinion and seems to be most often used to invoke a debating advantage. To me, this would be similar to quoting how fast the new sports car is in a *very* narrow acceleration band. What is more useful to gauge acceleration? Maybe a standard 0-30mph, 0-60mph and a 0-100mph? For subs, look at the AVERAGES---20-31hz, 40-63hz, and finally 20-63hz. (per CEA-2010). Pull one number out of a hat and you might as well be saying.....this car accelerates from 42mph to 46mph in 0.1 seconds less than that other car....who cares? That, in itself, tells me nothing about the acceleration capabilities I can expect from this vehicle in everyday usage..smile.gif


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