Upgrading for new HT...dual sub advice. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 09-05-2013, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Its been a while but I'm back in the obsession. I'm just about done with the HT build...12'x18'x9'.
I've been using a couple old ULW10's with the replacement amps in a living room setting with some Sierra-1's for the past 4-5 years. Fine...but I want a dedicated HT with LFE that doubles as a listening room.

I've talked myself into and out of the Rythmik F25 a few times. Same with the Dual SB12- NSD. Read all the reviews back and forth. Looked at lots of options...but can't seem to pull the trigger.

I'm limited to screen wall placement and am wired for duals just on either side of the center but could use the Rythmik F25 under my center channel laying on its side.

I've gone over the DIY route but just not sure all the work is worth the savings. I like to keep the sub amps in the rack which is why I keep the DIY thought going. (HTD's subs have detached amps...not sure on the SQ)

I'm really a SQ guy at heart but would like a sub capable of HT and Music. Heard good things on the Rythmik and am leaning that direction (would consider the 15" single driver Rythmik but the F25 just seems like a better value)

Opinions appreciated.
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post #2 of 25 Old 09-05-2013, 09:02 PM
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What is your budget?
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post #3 of 25 Old 09-05-2013, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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$1000-1500. I'd spend less if I thought I could get a capable SQ sub for less..
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post #4 of 25 Old 09-05-2013, 09:30 PM
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The F25 would be great, no doubt. I would lean toward a version that used the Rythmik 1510 drivers though, that would pack a bigger punch than the regular version. You might check out some of these Parts Express kits, the dual woofer kit, or maybe consider a couple of these Titanic 4 kits. The Dual woofer kit will have very high sound quality, it is using some very tight drivers (you can see its specs here) and has an absolutely inert cabinet with plenty of power. It's a kit so a little bit of assembly is required, but its not a big project like a real DIY project. It is very easy and simple and wouldn't even take an hour. Just watch the video on the product page. Same with the Titanic 4 kit, which would pack a big punch, thanks to the new driver which is pretty heavy duty. That would definitely hit harder than the Sb12, and cost less too.
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post #5 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post

$1000-1500. I'd spend less if I thought I could get a capable SQ sub for less..

I would go with dual subs if you have the room.
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post #6 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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The dual kits are interesting. I've used Dayton drivers in car audio subs...very nice subs. I wonder about the dual 12 kit with opposing drivers, whether that would smooth out the response the way duals do?
I've got room for duals or a big single with no problem. Now its a matter of deciding which way to go.
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post #7 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 05:54 AM
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Rythmik would be my choice.
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post #8 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post

The dual kits are interesting. I've used Dayton drivers in car audio subs...very nice subs. I wonder about the dual 12 kit with opposing drivers, whether that would smooth out the response the way duals do?
I've got room for duals or a big single with no problem. Now its a matter of deciding which way to go.
read the reviews....some have had vibrations from lack of internal bracing. no dual driver subs do not smooth out the fr anymore than a single. you need the subs seperated to effectively smooth the response.
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post #9 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 07:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post

Looked at lots of options...but can't seem to pull the trigger.

And your hesitation is?

Based on your original post, my recommendation would be to acquire room analyzing capability. Download a freeware copy of REW, purchase a measuring microphone and learn how to measure your room so what ever your choice in subwoofers might be, having room measuring capability will allow you to integrate the subwoofer system into your room's acoustics.

Placement of subwoofers is based on how well a subwoofer system integrates with a room's acoustics. There is no placing subwoofers based on one's sense of aesthetics and then expecting to get the best performance out of their subwoofer system. Subwoofers are like cats, if you're going get along with them, you'll understands, other then on furniture and counter tops or tables, if you expect to be successful in getting along with them, they go where they want, not where you want.

Without room measuring capability, there is no hope. One cannot be a sound quality type of guy and then post things like: "I'm limited to screen wall placement and am wired for duals just on either side of the center but could use the Rythmik F25 under my center channel laying on its side."

If one wants sound quality, they're going have to be more flexible then the above indicates. If one is interested in sound quality, the issue is going have to be further explored. In the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how many of them one has to throw at this type of problem.

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post #10 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 07:21 AM
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I agree with basshead81. Duals are the way to go, particularly since you are already used to that. Do you like how your listening room setup sounds with only one sub? A lot of people that do dual subs aren't happy again with just one.

In addition to the SB12-NSD, also look into the PSA XS-15 for another sealed sub option.

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post #11 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

read the reviews....some have had vibrations from lack of internal bracing. no dual driver subs do not smooth out the fr anymore than a single. you need the subs seperated to effectively smooth the response.

Plus, Kpilk said he likes the idea of having a dedicated sub amp. Might as well look into the flatpacks and build dual single driver subs. Then get a Crown amp.

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post #12 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Well the old system has been in boxes for a year while we are building the new house. The old system was in a big open area and the ULW10's didn't really have a chance to produce much LFE in a space that large (open to the stairs, kitchen, hallways, dining room, vaulted ceiling...pretty much the entire main floor.

I'll have to live with the screen wall placement as the rest of the room is full of seating and all the walls are taken. What about the cheaper rythmik 12...duals for about $1000. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/lv12r.html
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post #13 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post

What about the cheaper rythmik 12...duals for about $1000. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/lv12r.html

Those would be a really good option, and they would have plenty of output for your room. The SQ is supposedly as good or better than the more expensive 12" Internet direct ported subs.

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post #14 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 10:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post

Well the old system has been in boxes for a year while we are building the new house. The old system was in a big open area and the ULW10's didn't really have a chance to produce much LFE in a space that large (open to the stairs, kitchen, hallways, dining room, vaulted ceiling...pretty much the entire main floor.

I'll have to live with the screen wall placement as the rest of the room is full of seating and all the walls are taken. What about the cheaper rythmik 12...duals for about $1000. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/lv12r.html

Personally, if one has a choice, buying 12" subwoofers is a good way to encourage dissatisfaction with their subwoofer system. There are too many quality 15" driver based subwoofer choices available to be looking at 12" driver based subwoofer solutions. As encouragement, anything that was happening six or more years ago, price/comparison, pales to what one can buy, for less, today.

As to placement, you do have alternative choices. Again, no room measuring capability, you'll be clueless how any chosen subwoofer system is going interact with the room's acoustics and poorly place subwoofers, will quite literally, kill the best subwoofer's output.

(based on what you're posting, you're telling me you're doing your best to sabotage your subwoofer efforts and I support your right to do this)

Allow me to encourage you to reconsider your posted subwoofer strategy.

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post #15 of 25 Old 09-06-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Personally, if one has a choice, buying 12" subwoofers is a good way to encourage dissatisfaction with their subwoofer system. There are too many quality 15" driver based subwoofer choices available to be looking at 12" driver based subwoofer solutions. As encouragement, anything that was happening six or more years ago, price/comparison, pales to what one can buy, for less, today.

What??? He has a 12'x18'x9' room. It's a 2,000 cubic feet room. Dual 12's will have plenty of output to make most people happy with their HT setup rolleyes.gif

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post #16 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm really down to two LV12R's or the F25. I like the idea of the 15's in the F25 but by the time shipping hits its an extra $500. Not sure its about the money really, but about the value. The house will be ready by the end of the month and there's a lot going on between now and then...so the I've got time before I have to decide. Do I dare bring up my tower search?smile.gif
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post #17 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 09:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post

I'm really down to two LV12R's or the F25. I like the idea of the 15's in the F25 but by the time shipping hits its an extra $500. Not sure its about the money really, but about the value. The house will be ready by the end of the month and there's a lot going on between now and then...so the I've got time before I have to decide. Do I dare bring up my tower search?smile.gif

Always buy the biggest house that one can afford and in the same light, budget for the best subwoofers. Why? Moving is like upgrading subwoofers, a pain in the eek.gif

Fifteen inch drivers vs twelve inch drivers? One fifteen inch driver approximates the output of two twelve inch drivers. So one F25 will equal the output of four LV12R's. You do the math as to your needs and if you see the F25 as a value.

(and the F25 has it all over the LV12R in cool factor)

Let me help, I want you to look at this image of a F25 and then, with a straight face, say for the camera, "No, I do not want that subwoofer gracing the floor of my Home Theater."

And if you wish, less expensive, not as romantic, easier on shipping costs, there's always the Rythmik, E15

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post #18 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post

Do I dare bring up my tower search?smile.gif

You should start a thread for that in the AVS speakers forum area smile.gif

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post #19 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kpilk View Post

I'm really down to two LV12R's or the F25. I like the idea of the 15's in the F25 but by the time shipping hits its an extra $500. Not sure its about the money really, but about the value. The house will be ready by the end of the month and there's a lot going on between now and then...so the I've got time before I have to decide.

Well, and there might be other things you could use for your subwoofer performance. What kind of receiver do you have? Some room correction software in receivers EQs subs. Some does not, some does it better than others, and subwoofers need it.

And you probably want to pick up a measurement mic, like the UMIK-1, so you can get best placement out of the subs. Plus the UMIK-1 can be combined with mini-DSP so that you can better EQ your subs.

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post #20 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Let me help, I want you to look at this image of a F25 and then, with a straight face, say for the camera, "No, I do not want that subwoofer gracing the floor of my Home Theater."


-

You really shouldn't have done that...eek.gif
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post #21 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, and there might be other things you could use for your subwoofer performance. What kind of receiver do you have? Some room correction software in receivers EQs subs. Some does not, some does it better than others, and subwoofers need it.

And you probably want to pick up a measurement mic, like the UMIK-1, so you can get best placement out of the subs. Plus the UMIK-1 can be combined with mini-DSP so that you can better EQ your subs.

Pretty basic setup...Yamaha RXV-2700, Oppo CD/DVD player. I have the mic that came with the Yamaha. I've was pretty satisfied with the old setup but it didn't have the dynamics for HT and it wasn't the ideal music setup (mainly do to the room). I've just decided the move is a reasonable reason to upgrade a few things. The Yamaha and the Oppo stay. The Sierra's are being set aside for future use (not sure where but hate to part with them and then need them later).
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post #22 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 10:45 AM
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YPAO in Yamaha receivers only EQs the speakers, not the sub. So it would be worth considering some kind of EQ solution. You can get a mic, measure it, and do it yourself with something like REW and the mini-DSP. Or you can get an Antimode 8033c if you want something very automatic. Works like YPAO. Run the sub LFE out from the receiver to it, plug in the mic, let it run it's tone tests, and then it EQs the line out which you would split and run to the subs.

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post #23 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 11:23 AM
 
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You really shouldn't have done that...eek.gif

...biggrin.gif
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post #24 of 25 Old 09-07-2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

YPAO in Yamaha receivers only EQs the speakers, not the sub. So it would be worth considering some kind of EQ solution. You can get a mic, measure it, and do it yourself with something like REW and the mini-DSP. Or you can get an Antimode 8033c if you want something very automatic. Works like YPAO. Run the sub LFE out from the receiver to it, plug in the mic, let it run it's tone tests, and then it EQs the line out which you would split and run to the subs.

I believe the higher end rxa2020 and 3020 AVR's eq the sub...but yes most yamaha models do not eq the sub.
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post #25 of 25 Old 09-10-2013, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Update...was thinking about the F25 but wasn't sure of the wood finish. For LRC I'd been fixated on a couple brands but then got wind of the ARX A5 towers and evidently they are well received. I think they'd look great with the F25. Still a bit more research before I get out the CC but thanks for the advice guys.
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