Please help me decide between Rythmik LV12R, SVS PC12-NSD and PSA XV15 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 53 Old 09-13-2013, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

It's the other way i.e. extension for movies and spl for music.

Spl for music and you'll have hearing damage smile.gif Most people want loud boom for movie special effects.
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post #32 of 53 Old 09-13-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by coli View Post

Spl for music and you'll have hearing damage smile.gif Most people want loud boom for movie special effects.

Then how come pro audio subs roll off before 30hz, but hit 130+dB? Meanwhile, our HT subs dig into the teens or lower, but struggle to hit 120dB.
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post #33 of 53 Old 09-13-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tenderchkn View Post

Then how come pro audio subs roll off before 30hz, but hit 130+dB? Meanwhile, our HT subs dig into the teens or lower, but struggle to hit 120dB.

Keep in mind that pro audio gear is designed for massive spaces like movie theatres or auditoriums.
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post #34 of 53 Old 09-13-2013, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tenderchkn View Post

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Originally Posted by coli View Post

Spl for music and you'll have hearing damage smile.gif Most people want loud boom for movie special effects.

Then how come pro audio subs roll off before 30hz, but hit 130+dB? Meanwhile, our HT subs dig into the teens or lower, but struggle to hit 120dB.

struggle to hit 120dB? yes - none of the subs in this thread's title will hit 120dB in a room of any typical size at any frequency - and no where NEAR 120hz at 20dB. --- but there are ways to get there...

Let me introduce you to the JTR 2011 captivators for example:
They bridge the gap between pro and home sub utilization.
Using the wayback machine - I link to the 2011 model specs

http://web.archive.org/web/20110419165505/http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/captivator-pro/

from the spec page -
Useable Output **
136db at 60hz (127db at 20hz)
That's with a 4,000 watt RMS, 7,200 watt peak amp.


Probably optimistic - as I understood these were simulation figures - rather than actually tested figures. To date - the Caps have not been tested by a professional reviewer --- but clearly there are subs that bridge that gap between pro and home theater use! You just need a large and proper ported or horn enclosure with a massive driver, and plenty of power to produce ridiculous output at 20hz or so. Typical pro driver have sharp roll offs at about 30hz because they don't have the magnet/motor structure to support the excursion required for lower frequency reproduction. This allows them to be affordable, and lighter for easier mobile DJ transport. And the fact of the matter is typical pro subs sound great on most any type of music - they don't need to dig to 15hz for Top 40 type music tracks. I had a Yamaha CW-218V (dual 18's) that I loved for music listening - tuned to about 35hz - but it was lacking for home theater. The caps give me pro sub's great music playback at ridiculous volume levels - and a top tier home theater experience to boot that absolutely bests any commercial theater I've ever heard of!

The most powerful sub in the thread title is the PSA XV15 and it measured just under 103dB at 20hz as max output according to data-bass.com Quite the difference (but then the price is too.)

You can buy a passive captivator for $1500. Supply your own HPF, AMP, EQ. Your getting close to 2K through the cheaper paths - using an EP4000 amp or equivalent - but it is nothing short of fantastic!


Try moving this much air with a $500 - $700 sub.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlpqBoQ1hoQ

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #35 of 53 Old 09-13-2013, 06:52 PM
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Archea, not trying to argue but the XV15 will hit 120db in room in the upper bass region...you need to add 6db to the data bass numbers for a average of what the in room output will be. Then it can be more depending on room gain. Im sure most do not hit those numbers after eq'ing because it usually takes alot of eq to get a single sub flat in most rooms.

I am pushing 130db+ with 3 XV15's in the upper bass according to my rat shack meter, so it may be even more. I measured 113db @ 15hz at the main LP(2m) with a REW sweep...that was only dual XV15's, have not ran a sweep after adding the third.

Point being, I would rather have multiple subs to smooth the FR across the seats without needing EQ. Sure a passive Cap may match or exceed my 3 subs, but my 3 subs will have a better response across the room which is just as important if not more then output. I think the OP needs to figure out a budget and go with 2-4 of whatever he can afford. If he can afford dual Caps then more power to him.
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post #36 of 53 Old 09-13-2013, 08:11 PM
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FWIW, I liked a single JTR captivator significantly more than my dual SVS pb 13 ultra. As in not even comparable. At my listening position with a rat shack meter the pb 13s double stacked in the most advantageous corner could hit about 115 dB before sounding strained on various dubstep songs. I a/b'ed the caps and svs for a couple weeks. The cap pair not co-located could hit 125dB before I ran out of amp on a single ep4000 powering one cap per channel. Note, ran out of amp... not driver. The crown xls5000 amp I'm using now boogies into the 130dB territory and still isn't maxing out the drivers on anything but the stuff below port tune. Not everyone gets gain from their room. I get very close to 0 gain from mine, as evidenced by comparing ground planes Riccis and others have taken to measurements taken off various same model subs at the two subwoofer meets I've hosted. I've compared graphs on this topic in a couple older threads to prove this. It's not ideal, but my room does not provide the typical assist. Some rooms provide crazy gain. Scrappydues room who we recently eq'ed gives him 6-8 dB gain down to about 10hz with four sealed SI 18" subs. He literally has to cut that much towards 20hz to be flat with subs that in most rooms typically roll off around 35hz without eq. Carp has eight of the same 18" driver and has a more typical room gain profile. He has to boost multiple dB to be flat to 20hz with double the identical 18" subs in identical diy assembly group pre fab boxes.

Multiples rock, there is no doubt. But there are clear advantages to a beasty sub too. I hope you get to hear a captivator or orbit shifter or similar powerhouse setup. They are in a different league than the $500-$1000 subs. I've got a thread going over in the diy section on filling four sealed cabs, but trying to do it with drivers that will potentially best or match the captivator pair to port tune so I can have some fun comparing the two setups in depth. The guys who know more than me are basically saying that by the math I can't do that with four sealed subs even if I go with four $950 lms 5400 drivers and double the amps.

I dont think every one gets a free lunch on room gain. Having compared all the subs I have in my room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425179/the-subwoofer-recommendation-by-pricepoint-thread
there are no midline duals I'd take over a single submersive, cap, or orbit shifter - if you enjoy an occassional spirited demo session as I do.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #37 of 53 Old 09-13-2013, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

FWIW, I liked a single JTR captivator significantly more than my dual SVS pb 13 ultra. As in not even comparable. At my listening position with a rat shack meter the pb 13s double stacked in the most advantageous corner could hit about 115 dB before sounding strained on various dubstep songs. I a/b'ed the caps and svs for a couple weeks. The cap pair not co-located could hit 125dB before I ran out of amp on a single ep4000 powering one cap per channel. Note, ran out of amp... not driver. The crown xls5000 amp I'm using now boogies into the 130dB territory and still isn't maxing out the drivers on anything but the stuff below port tune. Not everyone gets gain from their room. I get very close to 0 gain from mine, as evidenced by comparing ground planes Riccis and others have taken to measurements taken off various same model subs at the two subwoofer meets I've hosted. I've compared graphs on this topic in a couple older threads to prove this. It's not ideal, but my room does not provide the typical assist. Some rooms provide crazy gain. Scrappydues room who we recently eq'ed gives him 6-8 dB gain down to about 10hz with four sealed SI 18" subs. He literally has to cut that much towards 20hz to be flat with subs that in most rooms typically roll off around 35hz without eq. Carp has eight of the same 18" driver and has a more typical room gain profile. He has to boost multiple dB to be flat to 20hz with double the identical 18" subs in identical diy assembly group pre fab boxes.

Multiples rock, there is no doubt. But there are clear advantages to a beasty sub too. I hope you get to hear a captivator or orbit shifter or similar powerhouse setup. They are in a different league than the $500-$1000 subs. I've got a thread going over in the diy section on filling four sealed cabs, but trying to do it with drivers that will potentially best or match the captivator pair to port tune so I can have some fun comparing the two setups in depth. The guys who know more than me are basically saying that by the math I can't do that with four sealed subs even if I go with four $950 lms 5400 drivers and double the amps.

I dont think every one gets a free lunch on room gain. Having compared all the subs I have in my room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425179/the-subwoofer-recommendation-by-pricepoint-thread
there are no midline duals I'd take over a single submersive, cap, or orbit shifter - if you enjoy an occassional spirited demo session as I do.

I agree that a Cap or subM in my room would be absolutely insane...actually there is no need for it until I get a dedicated HT. However the free lunch my room is giving allows my mid line subs to really do work. Btw I read your DIY thread already...I dont think 4 sealed 18's will get you what you want either.

Are those first gen passive caps still for sale that are 6th order bandpass with the 18" radiator? those might be a great option for the op.
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post #38 of 53 Old 09-20-2013, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys wanted to provide a quick update - I finally ended up picking a pair of 18" Triad subs from a member on here. Yes I went way over the budget that I had set for myself (definitely agree with the AVS effect now!) but hopefully I made the right choice given my large space. I haven't had a chance to set them up yet but will be doing it over the weekend, I am excited.

Thanks again for all you that took the time to share your thoughts with me, really appreciate it! Now off to threads to read and learn about getting most out of your sub! smile.gif
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post #39 of 53 Old 09-20-2013, 06:23 AM
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Dang you upped the budget 2k...lol. That should help keep the upgraditis at bay for a while anyway. smile.gif
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post #40 of 53 Old 09-20-2013, 06:34 AM
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(definitely agree with the AVS effect now!)

wink.gif Congrats on your new sub! Might I ask about your speakers and amp though biggrin.gif lol

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post #41 of 53 Old 09-20-2013, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Dang you upped the budget 2k...lol. That should help keep the upgraditis at bay for a while anyway. smile.gif

Yeah! I was going to get one and then I figured if I wanted to add another one, which from all the feedback I received seemed likely, I would be hard pressed to find another Triad or something that similar that could work with it or go an entirely different route . so decided to bite the bullet and get both....
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wink.gif Congrats on your new sub! Might I ask about your speakers and amp though biggrin.gif lol

Are you trying to get me divorced Steve? :-)
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Are you trying to get me divorced Steve? :-)

LOL.. NO! the cost is to expensive, it’s best to put up with the wife you have unlike our sw’s. smile.gif

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The trick is to creep on these things by saying things like.....yes, I am going need to upgrade this receiver in the near future. I'm not going to it today but I want to say, it is "needed" to make things right with what I have.

Repeat the above in various forms and resistance wise, it softens the wife.

Yes, wife of mine, the credit cards are paid in full, the car and home needs have been taken care of. You enjoyed the visit with your family. It's time to get that AVR I've been going on about for the last six months or year.

Slowly the resistance melts away.

If you bring the upgrade up, out of the blue, then it's like an financial explosion but if it's brought up in the light of ongoing expenses, and has been mentioned many times, she might even say something like: if it will get you to shut up about it, buy the stupid thing. Where upon, in the heat of the moment, you say......"Okay."

The key to successful spousal negotiation is to make it their idea.

"But honey, you told me to buy it."

...biggrin.gif
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post #45 of 53 Old 09-21-2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The trick is to creep on these things by saying things like.....yes, I am going need to upgrade this receiver in the near future. I'm not going to it today but I want to say, it is "needed" to make things right with what I have.

Repeat the above in various forms and resistance wise, it softens the wife.

Yes, wife of mine, the credit cards are paid in full, the car and home needs have been taken care of. You enjoyed the visit with your family. It's time to get that AVR I've been going on about for the last six months or year.

Slowly the resistance melts away.

If you bring the upgrade up, out of the blue, then it's like an financial explosion but if it's brought up in the light of ongoing expenses, and has been mentioned many times, she might even say something like: if it will get you to shut up about it, buy the stupid thing. Where upon, in the heat of the moment, you say......"Okay."

The key to successful spousal negotiation is to make it their idea.

"But honey, you told me to buy it."

...biggrin.gif

Dead on accurate biggrin.gif

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post #46 of 53 Old 09-21-2013, 09:06 AM
 
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Dead on accurate biggrin.gif

...biggrin.gif
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post #47 of 53 Old 09-21-2013, 11:22 AM
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Two 18's? She won't even notice them wink.gif
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post #48 of 53 Old 09-21-2013, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The trick is to creep on these things by saying things like.....yes, I am going need to upgrade this receiver in the near future. I'm not going to it today but I want to say, it is "needed" to make things right with what I have.

Repeat the above in various forms and resistance wise, it softens the wife.

Yes, wife of mine, the credit cards are paid in full, the car and home needs have been taken care of. You enjoyed the visit with your family. It's time to get that AVR I've been going on about for the last six months or year.

Slowly the resistance melts away.

If you bring the upgrade up, out of the blue, then it's like an financial explosion but if it's brought up in the light of ongoing expenses, and has been mentioned many times, she might even say something like: if it will get you to shut up about it, buy the stupid thing. Where upon, in the heat of the moment, you say......"Okay."

The key to successful spousal negotiation is to make it their idea.

"But honey, you told me to buy it."

...biggrin.gif

Lol .. this reminds me of the scene from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" where the women are talking and one of them says "Men think they are the head but we are the neck, we can turn the head any way we want while making them think its their idea" .. so the same thinking is happening from both sides wink.gif
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post #49 of 53 Old 09-21-2013, 05:02 PM
 
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Lol .. this reminds me of the scene from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" where the women are talking and one of them says "Men think they are the head but we are the neck, we can turn the head any way we want while making them think its their idea" .. so the same thinking is happening from both sides wink.gif

......biggrin.gif

I stay out of the battle of the sexes but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do and due to my wife being so fiscally conservative, in an acceptable way, I have to find ways to make my hobby needs acceptable. I can go for the whiny, mopey angle but I think she's on to me. tongue.gif
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post #50 of 53 Old 09-21-2013, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The trick is to creep on these things by saying things like.....yes, I am going need to upgrade this receiver in the near future. I'm not going to it today but I want to say, it is "needed" to make things right with what I have.

Repeat the above in various forms and resistance wise, it softens the wife.

Yes, wife of mine, the credit cards are paid in full, the car and home needs have been taken care of. You enjoyed the visit with your family. It's time to get that AVR I've been going on about for the last six months or year.

Slowly the resistance melts away.

If you bring the upgrade up, out of the blue, then it's like an financial explosion but if it's brought up in the light of ongoing expenses, and has been mentioned many times, she might even say something like: if it will get you to shut up about it, buy the stupid thing. Where upon, in the heat of the moment, you say......"Okay."

The key to successful spousal negotiation is to make it their idea.

"But honey, you told me to buy it."

...biggrin.gif

And then there is Rhed from Honolulu who's wife told him to order quad Captivator S2's!

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post #51 of 53 Old 09-22-2013, 05:35 AM
 
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And then there is Rhed from Honolulu who's wife told him to order quad Captivator S2's!

Now that's a man with a talent.
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post #52 of 53 Old 09-22-2013, 09:39 AM
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Now that's a man with a talent.

It brings a whole new meaning to WAF eek.gif

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post #53 of 53 Old 09-22-2013, 09:42 AM
 
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It brings a whole new meaning to WAF eek.gif

...eek.gif

...biggrin.gif
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