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post #271 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I was reading up more on Acoustic treatment since fiberglass panels are arriving on Tuesday, I came across this video on youtube from Ethan Winer who sells professional Acoustinc panels.
He said that the best listening position is 38% from front wall of room. 2nd best is 38% from rear wall.
Mine room is 27 feet long and 38% of that is 10.26. I'm sitting at 16 feet distance. Way off the best acoustic location :-(.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbLVjHfHahg

Following are some very interesting points he mentioned.

1 - Most important bass frequency range is from 60 or 80 to 300.
2 - Install rear reflector only if rear wall is 10 feet or less closer. Another interesting point he
3 - Install Broadband (not tuned) bass traps. I don't know the diff b/w Broadband vs tuned yet.
4 - The more bass traps, the better it is.
5 - Bass traps are semi reflector to absorb bass as much as possible and reflect mid-higher frequencies.

Your opinion guys?
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post #272 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

I was reading up more on Acoustic treatment since fiberglass panels are arriving on Tuesday, I came across this video on youtube from Ethan Winer who sells professional Acoustinc panels.
He said that the best listening position is 38% from front wall of room. 2nd best is 38% from rear wall.
Mine room is 27 feet long and 38% of that is 10.26. I'm sitting at 16 feet distance. Way off the best acoustic location :-(.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbLVjHfHahg

Following are some very interesting points he mentioned.

1 - Most important bass frequency range is from 60 or 80 to 300.
2 - Install rear reflector only if rear wall is 10 feet or less closer. Another interesting point he
3 - Install Broadband (not tuned) bass traps. I don't know the diff b/w Broadband vs tuned yet.
4 - The more bass traps, the better it is.
5 - Bass traps are semi reflector to absorb bass as much as possible and reflect mid-higher frequencies.

Your opinion guys?

I'm curious why he considers 60-300hz the most important bass range? Personally I find the entire bass range important for a satisfactory experience. Perhaps if only listening to music, and depending on the kind, you could do without frequencies below 40hz or so.

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post #273 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 08:12 AM
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I'm curious why he considers 60-300hz the most important bass range?

Coz he's a mid-bass lover. biggrin.gif

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post #274 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Coz he's a mid-bass lover. biggrin.gif

Crap! does that make me/us a bass whore then wink.gif

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post #275 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 08:27 AM
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More like bass porn stars biggrin.gif

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The best EQ is no EQ ...

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post #276 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

More like bass porn stars biggrin.gif

Lol..

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post #277 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

I was reading up more on Acoustic treatment since fiberglass panels are arriving on Tuesday, I came across this video on youtube from Ethan Winer who sells professional Acoustinc panels.
He said that the best listening position is 38% from front wall of room. 2nd best is 38% from rear wall.
Mine room is 27 feet long and 38% of that is 10.26. I'm sitting at 16 feet distance. Way off the best acoustic location :-(.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbLVjHfHahg

Following are some very interesting points he mentioned.

1 - Most important bass frequency range is from 60 or 80 to 300.
2 - Install rear reflector only if rear wall is 10 feet or less closer. Another interesting point he
3 - Install Broadband (not tuned) bass traps. I don't know the diff b/w Broadband vs tuned yet.
4 - The more bass traps, the better it is.
5 - Bass traps are semi reflector to absorb bass as much as possible and reflect mid-higher frequencies.

Your opinion guys?

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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

I'm curious why he considers 60-300hz the most important bass range? Personally I find the entire bass range important for a satisfactory experience. Perhaps if only listening to music, and depending on the kind, you could do without frequencies below 40hz or so.
Ethan considers the 60 - 300 Hz the most important range for 2 reasons:
1. Because 60 - 80 Hz is the lowest range that his bass traps can affect, (and it is a stretch to get to 80, much less 60 Hz.)
2. Because 250 - 300 Hz is the maximum "modal" range of most residential sized rooms. 250 - 300 Hz is the higher limit of the "Schroeder frequency," (or "transition frequency"). http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/2012/3/14/the-schroeder-transition-frequency-explained.html Above the Schroeder frequency, the wavelengths become so short that they no longer "resonate" between the room dimensions. Instead, above the Schroeder frequency, the response becomes "reflective." Ethan sells acoustic panels that absorb higher frequency reflections, but they're differentiated from "bass traps" that are used to absorb bass frequencies from 80, (barely) to 250 Hz and reflect frequencies above that.

An acoustic panel that is thick enough to absorb the lower range, (Schroeder/modal frequencies), and does not have a reflective surface to reflect the higher frequencies, is considered a "broadband" absorber, (but most of those need a significant airspace behind them to be effective at low frequencies.) Also, broadband absorbers *can* make a room sound overly dead by absorbing too much of the higher frequencies.

Sherez, in terms of your listening position, calculate 38% from the rear wall, which is Ethan's 2nd best LP. You're VERY close to that. Moving forward to 38% from the front wall would put you too close to your very large screen. (How big is your screen, anyway? It looks like it's about 12' wide or about 165" diagonal.)

Craig

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post #278 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Ethan considers the 60 - 300 Hz the most important range for 2 reasons:
1. Because 60 - 80 Hz is the lowest range that his bass traps can affect, (and it is a stretch to get to 80, much less 60 Hz.)
2. Because 250 - 300 Hz is the maximum "modal" range of most residential sized rooms. 250 - 300 Hz is the higher limit of the "Schroeder frequency," (or "transition frequency"). http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/2012/3/14/the-schroeder-transition-frequency-explained.html Above the Schroeder frequency, the wavelengths become so short that they no longer "resonate" between the room dimensions. Instead, above the Schroeder frequency, the response becomes "reflective." Ethan sells acoustic panels that absorb higher frequency reflections, but they're differentiated from "bass traps" that are used to absorb bass frequencies from 80, (barely) to 250 Hz and reflect frequencies above that.

An acoustic panel that is thick enough to absorb the lower range, (Schroeder/modal frequencies), and does not have a reflective surface to reflect the higher frequencies, is considered a "broadband" absorber, (but most of those need a significant airspace behind them to be effective at low frequencies.) Also, broadband absorbers *can* make a room sound overly dead by absorbing too much of the higher frequencies.

Sherez, in terms of your listening position, calculate 38% from the rear wall, which is Ethan's 2nd best LP. You're VERY close to that. Moving forward to 38% from the front wall would put you too close to your very large screen. (How big is your screen, anyway? It looks like it's about 12' wide or about 165" diagonal.)

Craig

Thx for very valuable information as usual. Yes I was very close to 38% of room length. My romm is 27 feet and 38% is 10.26 feet. I was sitting at 11+ feet. I adjusted that to 10.2 now. My screen is 130" diagonal. I don't think moving a feet away from screen is going to make a big difference but it can make a big difference in sound. I'm going to take some reading at that distance now :-)
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post #279 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 03:25 PM
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Thx for very valuable information as usual. Yes I was very close to 38% of room length. My romm is 27 feet and 38% is 10.26 feet. I was sitting at 11+ feet. I adjusted that to 10.2 now. My screen is 130" diagonal. I don't think moving a feet away from screen is going to make a big difference but it can make a big difference in sound. I'm going to take some reading at that distance now :-)
Just to be thorough... smile.gif

... there is another "transition frequency." When the wavelengths get to be *longer* than the room dimensions, the room transitions from "modal" response to "Pressure Vessel Gain." At the "PVG" frequencies, the room still reinforces the sound, but not the same way it does at modal frequencies. Instead, the room evenly reinforces the sound and it increases the in-room SPL's at a rate of 12 dB/octave, (in most residential sized rooms.) The smaller the room, the higher the frequency of PVG. Also, the more tightly sealed the room, the more PVG that is realized.

This is how a sealed sub system generates more output in the lowest, (infrasonic), octaves. The sub rolls off at 12 dB/octave, but the room adds back 12 dB/octave. The net result is flat in-room response to much lower frequencies than would be possible for the same sub without PVG.

A ported/vented sub rolls off at 24 dB/octave and only gets 12 back from PVG, so a ported/vented sub will have a much harder time developing as much SPL at the very lowest frequencies than a sealed sub. The ported sub will have more output at its' "tune point" than the sealed sub, and if it's tuned low enough, it can stall have excellent output into the deepest audible range. It's just the infrasonics where the sealed sub has the edge.

Anyway, just thought I would add that in the interest of "full disclosure." smile.gif

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post #280 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the final reading after putting subs in the very center (they are hugging center speaker). The whole graph comes out very nice besides 2 points (44,72). This graph is after Audyssey with Front L/R attached in Auto mode.
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post #281 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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And this one is after running full Audyssey 8 points.

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post #282 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 10:16 PM
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And this one is after running full Audyssey 8 points.


Audyssey 8 point measurements apply an average curve that is the average of 8 points. You cannot compare it to single point curve. Anyway, the 80Hz dip should go away with delaying the mains i.e. add more distance to sub in avr.

For 42Hz dip, tinker with the phase knob.

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post #283 of 757 Old 09-29-2013, 10:23 PM
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I don't remember exactly in that example. I usually start by adding about 3.5 ft. which is approximately 1/4 wavelength of 80 Hz. I then fine tune from there.

Craig

But if you have subs in the front and rear, Audyssey XT32 sets the distance for the front ones and the rear ones in relation to the MLP. Why would you increase the distance that XT32 found for both sets?
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post #284 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Audyssey 8 point measurements apply an average curve that is the average of 8 points. You cannot compare it to single point curve. Anyway, the 80Hz dip should go away with delaying the mains i.e. add more distance to sub in avr.

For 42Hz dip, tinker with the phase knob.

I did try to add more distance but then it effects other things. For example, it increases 100hz by 10db if I increase distance say by 2 feet. Initially I was getting a low 20-50hz, so I turned the phase knob of one of the subs 180 degress which gave be much better lower frequencies. Then I started playing around with it a little bit to get what you see in the graph. I think on complete 180, it was a decent graph. After seeing what a complete 8 point Audyssey does, I think its best to just try a few things (180 degrees or change of distance) to see what happens.
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post #285 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Braveheart + basshead: both of you pointed out that this whole process will become very easy if I could use Room EQ. Well, it is arriving today :-). By the time I get home, it should be there. I don't think hooking it up will be hard. So I'll do that and take reading (hopefully). I'm very sure that you guys will be more interested in just the subs for reading.
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post #286 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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My experience watching some scenes of War of the worlds. The bass sounds great. It didn't shake my legs but it was good. I could hear the low deep bass. The quality of bass was also very good. The light striking was amazing. I'm not blown away yet (with whole system)and its not because of subs but the whole setup. In many scenes if felt that the sound (again not bass) was very weak. One thing I know I need to do is increase the volume know on the back of Definitive BP6007 speakers. They all have knob which I was told to keep at 10 o'clock. But now since I have inceased the distance (sitting at 38% from rear wall), I also need to increase the power of speakers. But I did feel like in certain scenes there should be louder sound but it was dull. Could be just me.

But overall the bass was very pleasant. My wife even asked if it could crack our walls. She was very concerned :-)
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post #287 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 06:28 AM
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Braveheart + basshead: both of you pointed out that this whole process will become very easy if I could use Room EQ.

Room EQ?? Are you getting some sort of sub eq device e.g. BFD, SMS-1??

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post #288 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

My experience watching some scenes of War of the worlds. The bass sounds great. It didn't shake my legs but it was good. I could hear the low deep bass. The quality of bass was also very good. The light striking was amazing. I'm not blown away yet (with whole system)and its not because of subs but the whole setup. In many scenes if felt that the sound (again not bass) was very weak. One thing I know I need to do is increase the volume know on the back of Definitive BP6007 speakers. They all have knob which I was told to keep at 10 o'clock. But now since I have inceased the distance (sitting at 38% from rear wall), I also need to increase the power of speakers. But I did feel like in certain scenes there should be louder sound but it was dull. Could be just me.

But overall the bass was very pleasant. My wife even asked if it could crack our walls. She was very concerned :-)
Definitive BP6007? Are you sure that's the right model number?

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post #289 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Room EQ?? Are you getting some sort of sub eq device e.g. BFD, SMS-1??

No. The Room EQ Wizard software which is free to use but requires a Mic. I bought usb Mic that basshead recommended and its arriving today.
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post #290 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 06:55 AM
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If you meant Room EQ Wizard; that doesn't require receiving. It is free and you can download it.

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post #291 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Definitive BP6007? Are you sure that's the right model number?
Sorry. Wrote it in reverse order. Its Def BP 7006
http://www.definitivetech.com/products/bp7006
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post #293 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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If you meant Room EQ Wizard; that doesn't require receiving. It is free and you can download it.
But it does need a usb mic to work with (unless one has an external sound card). That's what arriving today.
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post #294 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 07:22 AM
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Sorry. Wrote it in reverse order. Its Def BP 7006
http://www.definitivetech.com/products/bp7006

Oh boy... those speakers have built-in powered woofers. That's gonna complicate your setup significantly. eek.gif

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post #295 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh boy... those speakers have built-in powered woofers. That's gonna complicate your setup significantly. eek.gif

Yes they do. I bought these about 2 years ago thinking that I will never need subs since these speakers already do. I didn't know any better. If I knew what I know now, I would have bought good satellite speakers and save that money towards better subs (which I already do now).
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How are they connected now... speaker level or line level?

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post #297 of 757 Old 09-30-2013, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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How are they connected now... speaker level or line level?
I don't know the difference but I can explain how they are connected (which I think makes them speaker level). These speakers are connected to receiver without any RCA. They all have rca input if I wanted to connect with with sub line as well but I"m only connecting them as speaker.
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post #298 of 757 Old 10-01-2013, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I made a post last night and its gone :-(. May be I didn't post it.
Yesterday I received mic. Hooking it up with computer and avr was a breeze. I following the guideline from avsforum "Step by step guide to Room EQ". I haven't tried taking measurement yet but I don't think that'd be a challenge. I just have to calibrate REW with SPL at 80 hz and then put away SPL for a while :-).

I have been trying to findout how to take measurement for REW. I mean the locations and combinations of speakers.
Assuming avr is set to sterio and all audyssey features are off
1 - Should I take measurement with subs only.
a - Subs in front hugging center speaker
b - Subs in front hugging center speaker with one of them having phase 180.
c - Subs on corners
2 - Subs with L/R speakers

What measurements do I need to take and what are we looking for in the graph? If someone has a link that explains how to use REW (not configure), it'd be a great help.
Thx.
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post #299 of 757 Old 10-01-2013, 11:02 AM
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You will have tons of help on home theatre shack on REW. Do some reading there coz it will easily go off track here.

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post #300 of 757 Old 10-05-2013, 11:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I was just going to post reading from REW but then realized that I needed to setup level appropiately. Readings coming tomorrow.
SherazNJ is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Rythmik Audio , Svs Pb12 Nsd Black Vinyl 12 Inch Powered Subwoofer

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