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post #91 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 08:56 AM
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^well said! I still think he should try setting the phase @ 180 on the rear sub just to see if it makes any difference. I run 2 of my XV15's nearfield at 0 on the phase and the 3rd XV15(mid room on adjacent wall) @ 180... it really smooths the bass out. I suppose I could leave them all at 0 and use the mini dsp to adjust the delay, but the response is pretty good this way. At this time I am doing more listening and less tweaking which tells me it must be close. smile.gif

+1......Any which way OP can. The end result should flex the rib cage wink.gif

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post #92 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

A powerful sub is not a a huge hose that can fill up a swimming pool in no time. Bass frequencies are large enough to bounce back and forth several times in a room before they finally dissipate. And every room has certain spots where these frequencies collide constructively creating peaks and certain spots where they meet destructively creating dips and nulls. This is regardless of how powerful a sub is. If you are sitting in a null, you will have very weak or no bass. Sitting in peaky response area gives boomy bass.

The idea to spread your subs across the room is to deal with the room modes effectively in order to have balanced sound over a larger listening area with as less peaks and dips as possible.

Oh woww. I had similar experience last night. I started testing my sub with Lords of the Ring (Fellowship version) and it soulds good when scene has how base but if a scene has high base (explosion etc), it did should very boomy. So I think I am sitting in an area where its boomy.
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post #93 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Ideal is to first dial all the three subs properly and then run audyssey. But since you are not conversant with REW, it becomes difficult. To get things going without REW for now, all you need is the ISO frequencies test tones from 20Hz-100Hz. Copy them on a flash drive, disengage all the speakers, and play them with only the subs hooked up to your avr. Just write down the spl against the frequencies in excel, and it will plot your in-room response. The test tones and RS analog spl meter correction files are available on the web. We can then adjust the phase between all three subs.

Once we are done removing the dips and peaks from the subs' raw response, audyssey will perform a lot better integrating your subs with the mains during calibration.

This is what I'm assuming I need to do to perform this
1- Move XV15s to side wall tunnel facing the wall and RW-12 behid middle seat by rear wall and took them up with receiver.
1 - Place SPL meter i the central listening area on a tripad.
2 - Connect USB to receiver that contains ISO frequencies test tones files from 20-100 hz.
3 - Disconnect all speakers but subs (all three subs)
4 - Run each frequency and write down the SPL Meter reading for each frequency.
5 - You said:
Quote:
it will plot your in-room response
. What is that it?


Sorry for so many questions. I'm a newbie but hopefully will following the instructions as we move along.
Thanks
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post #94 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

^well said! I still think he should try setting the phase @ 180 on the rear sub just to see if it makes any difference. I run 2 of my XV15's nearfield at 0 on the phase and the 3rd XV15(mid room on adjacent wall) @ 180... it really smooths the bass out. I suppose I could leave them all at 0 and use the mini dsp to adjust the delay, but the response is pretty good this way. At this time I am doing more listening and less tweaking which tells me it must be close. smile.gif
Can you plz post a pic of your room? You have a similar situation as I do.
Thx.
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post #95 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

+1......Any which way OP can. The end result should flex the rib cage wink.gif
Oh that's what I'm hoping for :-). Can't wait to get home to try all these.
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post #96 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 09:26 AM
 
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If I have my xs30 against the right wall,and my Jamo 15" against the adjacent wall,does one of them need to be at 180 phase?
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post #97 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

A powerful sub is not a a huge hose that can fill up a swimming pool in no time. Bass frequencies are large enough to bounce back and forth several times in a room before they finally dissipate. And every room has certain spots where these frequencies collide constructively creating peaks and certain spots where they meet destructively creating dips and nulls. This is regardless of how powerful a sub is. If you are sitting in a null, you will have very weak or no bass. Sitting in peaky response area gives boomy bass.

The idea to spread your subs across the room is to deal with the room modes effectively in order to have balanced sound over a larger listening area with as less peaks and dips as possible.



I have a 15 year HTIB with a 10 " sub and I do get a "good" bass in my 12' W x 20' L x 8' H living room when playing at max volume, with that said I am upgrading my system and the XV15 is on the top of my list (beating HSU VTF-15 because of PSA's 5 year bumper to bumper coverage). I sit 13' from the screen wall, would you consider 13' in a 20' long room a null position?


SherazNJ I'm following your thread closely, might drive over there to listen to your to your set up smile.gif .
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post #98 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by booga24 View Post

I have a 15 year HTIB with a 10 " sub and I do get a "good" bass in my 12' W x 20' L x 8' H living room when playing at max volume, with that said I am upgrading my system and the XV15 is on the top of my list (beating HSU VTF-15 because of PSA's 5 year bumper to bumper coverage). I sit 13' from the screen wall, would you consider 13' in a 20' long room a null position?


SherazNJ I'm following your thread closely, might drive over there to listen to your to your set up smile.gif .

Absolutely. Just can't guarantee if they are going to sound well since they are not calibrated yet. Also please keep in mid that your room is much shorter than mine (and might be closed as compared to mine). I think in your room, they are going to sound even better :-).

I just wish if braveheart was in NJ now a days.
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post #99 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

If I have my xs30 against the right wall,and my Jamo 15" against the adjacent wall,does one of them need to be at 180 phase?

Try it and see...it is normally recomended to set one sub 180 if its opposite end of the room from the other sub. Nothing is set in stone with subwoofers. Best bet is to exhaust all options and pick the setup that works best.
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post #100 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Can you plz post a pic of your room? You have a similar situation as I do.
Thx.



Pic is taken from standing in the front left corner....my room is 20x15. The sub on the left is directly in middle of the room. Directly across is a 6x7 opening into the foyer and den.

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post #101 of 757 Old 09-20-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Pic is taken from standing in the front left corner....my room is 20x15. The sub on the left is directly in middle of the room. Directly across is a 6x7 opening into the foyer and den.

Thx.
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post #102 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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After getting a lot of help from braveheart (thanks so much), here is what we got so far
1 - XV15 moved closed to seating location opposite to each other and 6" away from side walls.
2 - RW-12 place behind middle seat by rear wall.
3 - Matched all subs volumns at 73db on SPL.
4 - disconnected all speakers from receiver besides subs. Set db level to 0. Disabled all Audyssey features (EQ, etc)
5 - Set receiver volume to 70 and took readings on tests waves and here is the result



No reinforcement with 24Hz and below with huge dips and peaks spread all over the passband. Now I need to change the locations of subs. Don't know where but I'm going to move XV15 to closer to screen side now and take readings again.
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post #103 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 02:12 PM
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Those duals can dig a lot lower than 24Hz. I think you should get close to 15Hz with careful placement coupled with room gain. Change the locations and measure. Compare different plots by changing location. The flattest response is what you should be shooting for. +/-3dB from median is actually flat. Happy measuring....it's all fun wink.gif

If you can learn REW, which is not difficult, this all would be a breeze.

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post #104 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 04:54 PM
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I dont see him getting alot of room gain with the 27ft long span. still should dig alot lower then 24hz...probably 16-18hz range in this room. keep moving and measuring...i dont even want to think about all the hours i had moving and measuring the subs before finding the sweet spot. smile.gif
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post #105 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Those duals can dig a lot lower than 24Hz. I think you should get close to 15Hz with careful placement coupled with room gain. Change the locations and measure. Compare different plots by changing location. The flattest response is what you should be shooting for. +/-3dB from median is actually flat. Happy measuring....it's all fun wink.gif

If you can learn REW, which is not difficult, this all would be a breeze.

Don't I need an external soundcard to use REW and also a seperate mic?
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post #106 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I dont see him getting alot of room gain with the 27ft long span. still should dig alot lower then 24hz...probably 16-18hz range in this room. keep moving and measuring...i dont even want to think about all the hours i had moving and measuring the subs before finding the sweet spot. smile.gif
can you please explain how to read this graph? What is it we are looking for? What's good and what's bad?

thx
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post #107 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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some more experiments.
This one is when subs are in front 1 (feet away from ) and six inches from side walls. Phase 0. I did bring SPL to 80 on 50.1 before running tests.

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post #108 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Here I have one sub on one side of wall 7/12 away from front facing side wall and another one on the other side but behind the seat facing towards screen in the corner where its port is firing corner

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post #109 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 09:47 PM
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Don't I need an external soundcard to use REW and also a seperate mic?

Yes you would need an external sound card if your pc doesn't have dedicated Line-In and Line-Out. Mic-In won't work coz it has inherent noise, which will influence actual readings.
You don't need separate mic. RS meter will work just fine down to 10Hz with its correction values added in REW.

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post #110 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Don't I need an external soundcard to use REW and also a seperate mic?

If you use a usb mic such as the umik-1 or umm6 then you do not need to worry about the sound card.

My setup:

windows 7 laptop
cross spectrum labs umm-6 usb mic( got it from parts express)
8ft hdmi cable

plug the mic into the usb slot on the laptop, then plug the hdmi cable from the laptop to the hdmi input on the avr. I use aux hdmi input on the front of my avr.

when you open rew you need to plug in the mic calibration file under the mic cal tab.

then i used a radio shack spl meter to verify rew was calibrated to the mic.

there is a rew youtube tutorial floating around that will help guide you.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De4uSR3cUUSY%26desktop_uri%3D%252Fwatch%253Fv%253De4uSR3cUUSY&ei=jnY-Up23K4OA9QSin4HQAg&usg=AFQjCNGYVtCj2tJqBrnGjnpq-I8N-LHsZw
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post #111 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

some more experiments.
This one is when subs are in front 1 (feet away from ) and six inches from side walls. Phase 0. I did bring SPL to 80 on 50.1 before running tests.


this looks like apretty good graph! I would work with this setup if you have tried all other placement options. this graph looks to be +/-5db and has no nulls with sub 20hz extension. I would go ahead pic up a mic, watch the rew tutorial and take some measurements...
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post #112 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 10:10 PM
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can you please explain how to read this graph? What is it we are looking for? What's good and what's bad?

Ideally in an HT arrangement your graph should look like a straight line with no ripples and should gradually be rising from 70Hz down to 20Hz. This is called a House Curve. Think of it like the roof of a house.

Your sub's response should, rather, MUST be aided by the room gain such that the low end is naturally raised. This is room dependent and looking at the plots you've made thus far shows your room is offering very less.

While ripple free response is what all the bass-heads shoot for, it is not possible in real-world coz of room acoustics. But, +/-3dB is very much possible and that comes with careful placement of the subs. Rarely do acoustics and aesthetics go hand in hand. You may have to compromise on aesthetics for sub placement in order to get +/-3dB.

50.1Hz is in the middle of 0Hz to 100Hz passband. So if your SPL meter reads 80Hz at 50.1Hz, it should be either +3dB (83dB) or -3dB (77dB) on either side to have a flat response. Visually it will be ripples, but sonically it would sound to have same SPL across the entire passband.

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post #113 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

some more experiments.
This one is when subs are in front 1 (feet away from ) and six inches from side walls. Phase 0. I did bring SPL to 80 on 50.1 before running tests.


That is a far better looking response with the low-end naturally rising. That 10dB peak at 80Hz is due to 1/4 wavelength reflection off the front wall. Move the subs forward about 3.5 feet into the room and you should be able to get rid of it. Your subs are already 1 foot apart from the front wall. Pull them further 2.5 feet towards you and re-measure.

Also you can place the subs 2-3 inches from the side walls. This way they won't block the screen. The ports should be firing into the front wall and not the side walls with this placement.

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post #114 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

That is a far better looking response with the low-end naturally rising. That 10dB peak at 80Hz is due to 1/4 wavelength reflection off the front wall. Move the subs forward about 3.5 feet into the room and you should be able to get rid of it. Your subs are already 1 foot apart from the front wall. Pull them further 2.5 feet towards you and re-measure.

Also you can place the subs 2-3 inches from the side walls. This way they won't block the screen. The ports should be firing into the front wall and not the side walls with this placement.
I'd be very happy to move them forward. The more I can move them forward, the more they are out of viewing angle from screen. In fact, moving them 2.5 feet might get them out of screen way. What about the front speakers then? If I were to place them, they'd be behind the subs. This will make subs port firing towards the speakers rather than walls. Also front speakers will have subs in front of them. I can't yet visualize but will find out tomorrow.
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50.1Hz is in the middle of 0Hz to 100Hz passband. So if your SPL meter reads 80Hz at 50.1Hz, it should be either +3dB (83dB) or -3dB (77dB) on either side to have a flat response. Visually it will be ripples, but sonically it would sound to have same SPL across the entire passband.

Great. Now I know what I need to look for. Feels so much better when you know the target. Thx for that. So basically we are looking for a graph that dones't go beyond 3db fluctuation. Either highest of 83 or lowest to 77. Based on that, the values that gave me the closest graph has only a few values going out of that range. Making them bold. Besides the bold one, there are a few that are 4 or max 5 off.

20Hz 77
21.1Hz 76
22.4Hz 72
23.7Hz 75
25.1Hz 78
26.6Hz 80
28.2Hz 81
29.9Hz 80
31.6Hz 82
33.5Hz 79
35.5Hz 78
37.6Hz 77
39.8Hz 80
42.2Hz 82
44.7Hz 82
47.3Hz 79
50.1Hz 80
53.1Hz 80
56.2Hz 78
59.6Hz 77
63.1Hz 77
66.8Hz 76
70.8Hz 75
75Hz 79
79.4Hz 84
84.1Hz 82
89.1Hz 73
94.4Hz 67
100Hz 72
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post #115 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 10:51 PM
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These are your 2 graphs superimposed for better analysis. The red circular area is a huge problem. You are giving away extension with placing one sub up front and one in the back. It should be rising all the way down to at least 20Hz. Seems like you are wasting the potential of those bad boys. In your case it's on a nose dive after 24Hz. Try and reverse the phase to 180 on the rear sub and measure again. If still it doesn't solve your problem, both subs placed up front is a better option.



It's all room acoustics. Scary!!! eek.gif

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post #116 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 10:58 PM
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What about the front speakers then? If I were to place them, they'd be behind the subs. This will make subs port firing towards the speakers rather than walls. Also front speakers will have subs in front of them. I can't yet visualize but will find out tomorrow.

We can work that out. First you integrate the subs as best as you can. We can put them on top of each sub if the need be wink.gif

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post #117 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

These are your 2 graphs superimposed for better analysis. The red circular area is a huge problem. You are giving away extension with placing one sub up front and one in the back. It should be rising all the way down to at least 20Hz. Seems like you are wasting the potential of those bad boys. In your case it's on a nose dive after 24Hz. Try and reverse the phase to 180 on the rear sub and measure again. If still it doesn't solve your problem, both subs placed up front is a better option.



It's all room acoustics. Scary!!! eek.gif

ok. Sticking to 2 front settings. Will take reading tomorrow for front subs at 3 1/2 feet from front wall. Going to get some sleep now :-) See you guys tomorrow.
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post #118 of 757 Old 09-21-2013, 11:45 PM
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So basically we are looking for a graph that dones't go beyond 3db fluctuation. Either highest of 83 or lowest to 77. Based on that, the values that gave me the closest graph has only a few values going out of that range. Making them bold. Besides the bold one, there are a few that are 4 or max 5 off.

20Hz 77
21.1Hz 76
22.4Hz 72
23.7Hz 75
25.1Hz 78
26.6Hz 80
28.2Hz 81
29.9Hz 80
31.6Hz 82
33.5Hz 79
35.5Hz 78
37.6Hz 77
39.8Hz 80
42.2Hz 82
44.7Hz 82
47.3Hz 79
50.1Hz 80
53.1Hz 80
56.2Hz 78
59.6Hz 77
63.1Hz 77
66.8Hz 76
70.8Hz 75
75Hz 79
79.4Hz 84
84.1Hz 82
89.1Hz 73
94.4Hz 67
100Hz 72

That's right. Once we get to within +/-3dB down to 20Hz, at least, for sub response then Audyssey will have far easier job calibrating the whole system. Audyssey is not magic. You feed it junk; it will pump out junk. Feed it a good starting curve and it will do great job for you. Merely relying on EQ with poor placement will destroy sound. EQ must complement placement not supplement it.
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post #119 of 757 Old 09-22-2013, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

That's right. Once we get to within +/-3dB down to 20Hz, at least, for sub response then Audyssey will have far easier job calibrating the whole system. Audyssey is not magic. You feed it junk; it will pump out junk. Feed it a good starting curve and it will do great job for you. Merely relying on EQ with poor placement will destroy sound. EQ must complement placement not supplement it.
+1. I never thought that way before. I have good speakers and still my room can't produce great sound. My friend has a dedicated room but its smaller and completely closed. I wouldn't say that its a complete rectangular room but its not square either. He has basic speakers (not tower like mine) and still it sounds great in his room (Just like theater room). Not only it has good base but also great sound. You feel like completely surrounded with sound in that room. In my room, it feels like it wants to escape you (if that makes a sense). In other words it doesn't resonate.
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post #120 of 757 Old 09-22-2013, 06:56 AM
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In other words it doesn't resonate.

I know exactly what you mean, but resonance is not the correct word. In fact, resonating sound is bad.

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