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post #1 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I know this question has been asked before but I think my case is different. Here is the layout of my room



I moved the sub in many places and finally last weekend I moved it to where it is in the picture. There, it produces best sound. It is klipsch rw-12d. When it comes to subs, my knowledge is very limited. Even though the base is there, it sounds loud and loose. I like the loud part but its quality is not great. Yes I can distingish the base and don't feel like it is coming from a spicific direction but the quality is not that good. It's more like dum dum dum instead of dhub dhub dhub with tightness ( I hope I'm making sense here).

Is it because my room is too big for my sub or its not a good quality sub?
Sub volume is in center and I mode is set to Depth. I'm using Marantz SR6007 as my receiver. Front and Central are Definitive bp7006 tower speakers.
After calibration, receiver sets my sub to -7.5 db.

Should I get a better subwoofer or get another klipsch rw-12d sub (which as of now is discontinued)?

Thanks a lot.
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post #2 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 11:19 AM
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I think you are completely discarding the space on the left side of open entrance. What are the dimensions of that? Also, your current placement of couch puts you in almost null or very weak bass region.

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post #3 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I think you are completely discarding the space on the left side of open entrance. What are the dimensions of that? Also, your current placement of couch puts you in almost null or very weak bass region.
I believe the empty space is also 14 ft long. Why is that so important? almost all my speakers are poiting to my couch. You also mentiond that my couch is in almost null/weak bass region. How did you figure that out? I moved my subs in many places and finally that was the only spot it bacame alive.
One very common option is to place sub in the front but I can' t do that either. The sub doesn't fit there becasue of the screen.
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post #4 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 11:39 AM
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I believe the empty space is also 14 ft long. Why is that so important? almost all my speakers are poiting to my couch.

For a subwoofer you need to take every inch into account coz of longer wavelengths involved in bass frequencies. At 20Hz the wavelength is over 50 ft. A sub thrives on room gain. Larger the listening area; lesser the room gain and vice versa. For higher frequencies, which are pretty much directional and have very small wavelength, there is no issue.
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You also mentiond that my couch is in almost null/weak bass region. How did you figure that out? I moved my subs in many places and finally that was the only spot it bacame alive.

For bass frequencies, the more you are closer to the middle of the room; the less pressurization you feel. It is the room modes kicking in. There are peaks and nulls in every room and the greatest null is right in the middle of room.

How do you know that your sub came alive at the spot. What did you check it on? Movies, music?

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post #5 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 11:44 AM
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That space needs to be figured into the equation for a subwoofer. Speakers don't care as much if rooms are sealed or open to other areas of the house BUT subwoofers and bass do care. In a perfect world you would have a rectangular room sealed with a door to the rest of the house. Then you would figure out the cubic feet and go from there with what subwoofers will pressurize your room. But with seeing that drawing of your room IMO you should be looking at dual subs in the $500 - $800 range each from companies like PSA, Hsu, Outlaw Audio, Rythmik, SVS. If dual subs are out of the question then I would look at a pretty big ported sub. Like Rythmik FV15HP or PSA XV30.

I have a room 15'W X 20'L X 8'H that has a 4'W opening from floor to ceiling to the rest of the house. I run 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus subs in my room. I am very happy with the way it sounds but there are several ppl on this forum that would find the bass lacking.

Also it is best to have your seating at either the 1/3rd or 2/3rd dimensions from front to back in your room. Dead center is almost a given null. BUT guess what 18' away from the front wall in a 27' L room is exactly 2/3rd.

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post #6 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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How do you know that your sub came alive at the spot. What did you check it on? Movies, music?

I checked Movie "Lord of the rings".
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There are peaks and nulls in every room and the greatest null is right in the middle of room.
I am not in the middle of the room. 13.5 puts me in the middle and i'm about 18 ft away. I'm 2/3 awa as pointed out by flickhtguru (thx for that flickhtguru).
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post #7 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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That space needs to be figured into the equation for a subwoofer. Speakers don't care as much if rooms are sealed or open to other areas of the house BUT subwoofers and bass do care. In a perfect world you would have a rectangular room sealed with a door to the rest of the house. Then you would figure out the cubic feet and go from there with what subwoofers will pressurize your room. But with seeing that drawing of your room IMO you should be looking at dual subs in the $500 - $800 range each from companies like PSA, Hsu, Outlaw Audio, Rythmik, SVS. If dual subs are out of the question then I would look at a pretty big ported sub. Like Rythmik FV15HP or PSA XV30.

dual subs are not out of question. When I was testing my sub, I placed it in the middle of 18 ft area next to left wall and it didn't sound that well there. Based on my readings for the setup of two subs, it is highly recommended to either place them against each other in rectangular area (where I had only one) or 1 in the front and one in the back. Since one sub didn't sound well, does it mean that two subs placed opposite to each other (one on left side of wall and other on right side of wall).?

What should I be looking for when I searching for a model in PSA, Hsu, Outlaw Audio, Rythmik, SVS.
Thx.
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post #8 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 12:13 PM
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I checked Movie "Lord of the rings".

If you are comfortable with REW, try and run some sweeps from your current listening position. I still think you are in less pressurization zone

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post #9 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

If you are comfortable with REW, try and run some sweeps from your current listening position. I still think you are in less pressurization zone

I'm so sorry but I don't even know what REW is. Also, should I consider putting a wall up to close that area? I mean woudl that make a huge difference?
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post #10 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Would this layout be better? I would do it only if it makes a big difference. Please let me know guys. Thx.

From


To
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post #11 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 01:58 PM
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Placing it nearfield like that can give you more tactile feel since it will be firing right into the back of the sofa but it still doesn't change the fact that it will still be trying to fill all open space.

Did you do a sub crawl when finding the best spot for the sub. Sub crawl in case you don't know is, place the sub in your main listening position and then crawl around the room and find the spot the sub is the loudest.

As for the overall sound of the sub, you can only expect so much for so little. If you want articulate, clean, flat bass you need to go up in budget and the best deals are from the internet direct sellers like SVS, Rythmik, HSU, PSA, Outlaw........ or build a DIY sub.

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post #12 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Placing it nearfield like that can give you more tactile feel since it will be firing right into the back of the sofa but it still doesn't change the fact that it will still be trying to fill all open space.

Did you do a sub crawl when finding the best spot for the sub. Sub crawl in case you don't know is, place the sub in your main listening position and then crawl around the room and find the spot the sub is the loudest.

As for the overall sound of the sub, you can only expect so much for so little. If you want articulate, clean, flat bass you need to go up in budget and the best deals are from the internet direct sellers like SVS, Rythmik, HSU, PSA, Outlaw........ or build a DIY sub.

My question was more towards the benefits of closing the space vs leaving it open. If closing walls is not going to make big difference then it's not worth it for me to go through all the trouble. I'm trying to figure out if I should spend money in making the place better for sound as compared to buying expensive equipment. If the place is not best for optimum output then I'd end up spending money in buying the equipments and won't get much out of it.

Yes I"m familiar with crawing method and I did try it and that's how I found that place.
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post #13 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

My question was more towards the benefits of closing the space vs leaving it open. If closing walls is not going to make big difference then it's not worth it for me to go through all the trouble.
It will make a major difference, literally halving the number of subs you'd need to fill the room.

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post #14 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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It will make a major difference, literally halving the number of subs you'd need to fill the room.

My apologies Bill. I didn't get your point. Are you saying that i'll make a big difference if I close the room or if I invest in multiple subs?
Thx
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post #15 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

My apologies Bill. I didn't get your point. Are you saying that i'll make a big difference if I close the room or if I invest in multiple subs?
Thx

Both. Closing off the room IMO would be the best option if done correctly.

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post #16 of 757 Old 09-11-2013, 07:06 PM
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My apologies Bill. I didn't get your point. Are you saying that i'll make a big difference if I close the room or if I invest in multiple subs?

If you close the room, you will have less area to pressurize. So, it will save you cost of buying the duals. Only one potent sub would be enough to rattle your rib cage. smile.gif Some people including myself would still go with duals to have a balanced response over a larger seating area even in the shortened room, but it jacks up the cost. But if you want to save on money, one good sub would still get you going effectively.
It is worth shortening the listening area.

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post #17 of 757 Old 09-12-2013, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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New establishment. Changing room size is not an option for now. So now we are back to one good quality sub (around 800.00) or buying another sub to have two subs setup?
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post #18 of 757 Old 09-12-2013, 10:50 PM
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SherazNJ.......I reckon you jack up your budget and go for dual Rythmik Audio LV12R subs. They are $589 per sub excluding shipping. LV12R is the cheapest ticket to high quality bass. I'm not suggesting duals to lift the roof by cranking them hard. You will have a very balanced response and enough pressurization in your listening space. You already have an RW-12D. Keep it where it already is and stash the duals up on the front wall one next to each Left/Right speakers.

If you can somehow swing the budget for duals, they will go a long long way into your movie watching experience. If you can't right now, go for a single now and save up for the other to buy later. RW-12D and Rythmik should both compliment each other as the FR and power ratings are roughly same. However, Rythmik will have a lot cleaner output esp 30Hz and below where most of the Klipsch subs distort badly when cranked hard.

If still you don't want to go with duals due to budget constraints; PSA XV15 ($799 including shipping) or SVS PB12-NSD ($769 including shipping) would serve your purpose greatly.

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post #19 of 757 Old 09-13-2013, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Also, your current placement of couch puts you in almost null or very weak bass region.

There's no way you can determine this from looking at the picture. First of all, nulls are not an all or nothing thing. They occur at some frequency range at location A and another at location B. If you have a single sub, you'll have nulls all over the place. It's just that the null will be at different frequencies at different locations.
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For bass frequencies, the more you are closer to the middle of the room; the less pressurization you feel. It is the room modes kicking in. There are peaks and nulls in every room and the greatest null is right in the middle of room.

This is a generalization that needs to be put to rest. You'll have a null in the middle of the room like you'll have everywhere, the difference is the null will be at a different frequency than the other places. The particular frequency is a function of the room dimensions, the audio reflectivity of the walls, etc... . You can model it on a computer with very specific boundary conditions, but in a random room with furniture and odd shapes. Forget it. It can only be measured. Also, the sofa is not in the middle of the room.

You need to think of subwoofers acting like nozzles filling a swimming pool. Where will the maximum pressure be? It will be right next to nozzle. Likewise the maximum SPL will be right next to the subwoofer. Will the water pressure be less in the middle of the pool than a random other location? Who knows?
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post #20 of 757 Old 09-13-2013, 01:07 PM
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There's no way you can determine this from looking at the picture.

There is a way.......experimentation!!! been there; done it. Just feeding OP the experiences.
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First of all, nulls are not an all or nothing thing. They occur at some frequency range at location A and another at location B. If you have a single sub, you'll have nulls all over the place. It's just that the null will be at different frequencies at different locations.

That's a stark truth. Who denies that? At least I don't.
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You need to think of subwoofers acting like nozzles filling a swimming pool. Where will the maximum pressure be? It will be right next to nozzle. Likewise the maximum SPL will be right next to the subwoofer. Will the water pressure be less in the middle of the pool than a random other location? Who knows?

Utterly inappropriate example.

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post #21 of 757 Old 09-14-2013, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

SherazNJ.......I reckon you jack up your budget and go for dual Rythmik Audio LV12R subs. They are $589 per sub excluding shipping. LV12R is the cheapest ticket to high quality bass. I'm not suggesting duals to lift the roof by cranking them hard. You will have a very balanced response and enough pressurization in your listening space. You already have an RW-12D. Keep it where it already is and stash the duals up on the front wall one next to each Left/Right speakers.

If you can somehow swing the budget for duals, they will go a long long way into your movie watching experience. If you can't right now, go for a single now and save up for the other to buy later. RW-12D and Rythmik should both compliment each other as the FR and power ratings are roughly same. However, Rythmik will have a lot cleaner output esp 30Hz and below where most of the Klipsch subs distort badly when cranked hard.

If still you don't want to go with duals due to budget constraints; PSA XV15 ($799 including shipping) or SVS PB12-NSD ($769 including shipping) would serve your purpose greatly.

I can't put the subs next to front speakers. My screen comes down enough that I can't fit even my current R-12D sub. Therefore placing subs in the front section is not an option for me unfortunately.
I have been reading a lot of reviews and PSA XV15 has great reviews and PSA seems to have great reputation for their customer service. I can try to sell my RW-12 and later buy another PsaXv15. My concern is how well one XV15 is going to serve for now considering the open space (please see the image in my first post)? My second concern is placing the second sub when I buy it. According to what I have read about 2 subs placement is either
1 - One in front and one in bakc
2 - opposite to each other by the side walls

Options one is not possible due to the screen. Option 2 is def possible but I have only 11 1/2 feet (not 14 as it says in image). Would it not be an overkill for two subs to be place opposite to each other with such small distaince? Or do I have option to place two subs on the back wall which is 11 feet away from the couch???
thx
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post #22 of 757 Old 09-14-2013, 11:11 PM
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2 - opposite to each other by the side walls

Yes. One each along the side opposing walls in the mid position.
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Would it not be an overkill for two subs to be place opposite to each other with such small distaince?

Bass is never enough. Just coz you have powerful subs doesn't mean you crank them so loud such that they drown your speakers + Mostly 2 subs application is more to deal with the room modes to have a balanced response over a larger listening area when the same are excited from multiple parts of the room. Extra SPL comes for free smile.gif

Another option to try is to keep both behind the couch i.e. one behind the left most seat of couch and the other behind the right most.

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post #23 of 757 Old 09-15-2013, 04:33 AM
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There is a way.......experimentation!!! been there; done it.

So, did you run your experiments in his room?
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post #24 of 757 Old 09-15-2013, 04:45 AM
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So, did you run your experiments in his room?

Laws of physics aren't location specific when sound propagation medium is air.

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post #25 of 757 Old 09-15-2013, 06:51 AM
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Laws of physics aren't location specific when sound propagation medium is air.
Yes, they are. You can use software to find the best placement, as the physics/math works the same in every room. The problem lies in that every room is different, so there are a lot of variables that must be considered, and then there's the matter of having the requisite skills to use the software. That leaves experimentation, guided by the rules of thumb, as the best option for everyone else.

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post #26 of 757 Old 09-16-2013, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I have decided to go with 2 XV15 subs. Now I need to make sure what would be the best place for them. As I have read so far that when it comes to subs, its Location Location Location. It took me a long time to figure out the right place for my current sub and still I don't think its the best place. Any recommendations? Please keep in mind that I can't place sub by the front wall because of the screen size.
thx.
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post #27 of 757 Old 09-16-2013, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

I have decided to go with 2 XV15 subs. Now I need to make sure what would be the best place for them. As I have read so far that when it comes to subs, its Location Location Location. It took me a long time to figure out the right place for my current sub and still I don't think its the best place. Any recommendations? Please keep in mind that I can't place sub by the front wall because of the screen size.
thx.

Good choice. The general recommendation with 2 subs is to place one in a corner and the other at a non corner. Something like 1/3rd of the way from a corner along a wall. You'll hear 5 different suggestions from 5 different people. Each of which is what worked best for them with their subs in their room. To achieve the best results, you'll have to do some trial and error.
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post #28 of 757 Old 09-16-2013, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Just placed the order for 2 XV 15 subs. I'll get it by Wednesday. Thanks to all of you helping me out during this process. Special thx to Braveheart123 and Tom (from Power Sound Audio) for all their guidance. I'll be getting back here soon. I'm sure I'm going to need some guidance calibrating them with my system :-)
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post #29 of 757 Old 09-16-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Just placed the order for 2 XV 15 subs. I'll get it by Wednesday. Thanks to all of you helping me out during this process. Special thx to Braveheart123 and Tom (from Power Sound Audio) for all their guidance. I'll be getting back here soon. I'm sure I'm going to need some guidance calibrating them with my system :-)

Congrats! You are in for a treat smile.gif
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post #30 of 757 Old 09-16-2013, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Just placed the order for 2 XV 15 subs. I'll get it by Wednesday. Thanks to all of you helping me out during this process. Special thx to Braveheart123 and Tom (from Power Sound Audio) for all their guidance. I'll be getting back here soon. I'm sure I'm going to need some guidance calibrating them with my system :-)

That's called manning up to the bass battle. Time for Radio Shack Analog SPL meter!!! It's a must buy.

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