Sub decision- HSU VTF15 or PSA XV30f - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 52 Old 09-16-2013, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

We don't have a test on the XS30's?

Well of course if the scenario was to have two same in the same location you'd be better off with one high end sub. That's not what I meant with two is always better then one sub.
I know what you meant and I will still say it depends on the shape and size of the room.
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post #32 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Why would you say between $1000-1500 and then just right to $1500 when saying I bet if you put up a poll if people would take two $500 subs or one $1500. I think if the choices were two $500 subs or one $1000, or even two $750 subs or one $1500 sub, most would go with two of the lesser subs.

I think you'd be surprised at how many people that understand subs would choose the two vs one sub setup.

The "people that understand subs" is a huge qualifier - are you narrowing down your target audience to bassheads and/or those with dedicated theater rooms then?

I'd bet if you sampled a general populace of real world buyers (and even educated them on the benefit's of two subs), the vast majority would take one sub simply because of WAF - not a lot of people can have multiple giant black boxes floating around their living room.

Check out my WAF approved living room theater

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1526916/my...-1-living-room
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post #33 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 06:59 AM
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I see this argument all the time. AVS is a unique place and the majority of people don't even own subs at all. Since this is the sub forum we want and have subs. Very unique from the majority, it gets even more rare going to the DIY section. OP should get that used Captivator and then buy a used pro amp and have a better sub than all mentioned with more output for his budget. The DTS-10 would be even a better choice IMHO but it is massive, requires much more tweaking, etc.
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post #34 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post

The "people that understand subs" is a huge qualifier - are you narrowing down your target audience to bassheads and/or those with dedicated theater rooms then?

I'd bet if you sampled a general populace of real world buyers (and even educated them on the benefit's of two subs), the vast majority would take one sub simply because of WAF - not a lot of people can have multiple giant black boxes floating around their living room.

This is the AVS sub forum...not for the faint at heart. I dont think most of us care or consider what the general populace of real world buyers want. Thats what Fry's and Best Buy is for. This is basshead territory, some more extreme then others...most here want a sub system that stands out from the rest of the crowd. Then you have extremists like MKtheatre...if the subs wont produce 120db @ 5hz then they are garbage. smile.gif
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post #35 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 07:36 AM
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Yes I have been thinking of going over to Bose and one of those bass modular sub kind of things. wink.gif

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post #36 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

This is the AVS sub forum...not for the faint at heart. I dont think most of us care or consider what the general populace of real world buyers want. Thats what Fry's and Best Buy is for. This is basshead territory, some more extreme then others...most here want a sub system that stands out from the rest of the crowd. Then you have extremists like MKtheatre...if the subs wont produce 120db @ 5hz then they are garbage. smile.gif
While this is true for some posters we still need to help people with limited space and budget to at least get the most their dollar will bring when asked.
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post #37 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Why would you say between $1000-1500 and then just right to $1500 when saying I bet if you put up a poll if people would take two $500 subs or one $1500. I think if the choices were two $500 subs or one $1000, or even two $750 subs or one $1500 sub, most would go with two of the lesser subs.

I think you'd be surprised at how many people that understand subs would choose the two vs one sub setup.
Actually Brian of Rythmik recommended a single FV15hp over dual LV12Rs. My single fv15hp is more than I can handle in my ~2700ft^3 seal room across my four seats but I am not as 'bass head' as most folks in this forum and never listen at reference (-10 to -15db most of the time)
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post #38 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 07:48 AM
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That is a good point, what are the goals! I listen at reference and run the subs 3 dBs hot and when having fun 10 dBs hot! I need massive headroom. So when someone asks for foundation moving bass I feel they need reference and above.
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post #39 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 08:00 AM
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I would always call the mfg and state what I expect armed with room layout and dimensions and maximum budget to see what they recommend in their product line then visit the threads for the pro's and con's.
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post #40 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Actually Brian of Rythmik recommended a single FV15hp over dual LV12Rs. My single fv15hp is more than I can handle in my ~2700ft^3 seal room across my four seats but I am not as 'bass head' as most folks in this forum and never listen at reference (-10 to -15db most of the time)

Have you measured to see what your response is?
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post #41 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

To be honest one sub is silly at best. The OP's best bet would of been to add another VTF3-MK4. 2 of these would outperform the VTF-15 and come close to the XV30 from 16hz on up... not mention the main point which is a smoother response across the seats. If one is serious about a good sub system, then they should consider 2-4 subs...especially in a 6000^3 room. One sub can not smooth room modes and nulls, so most likely alot of eq'ing will be needed to obtain a flat response, which more then likely will not happen since nulls can not be eq'd. Also Eq'ing eats headroom and depending on how much is needed that 1000-1500 dollar sub could end up sounding worse with less output then a pair 500.00 sub's. Thats why I went with 3 -XV15's because I could squeeze them in my budget and I gurantee my setup sounds better with more output then any single sub I could by under 2500.00 from 15hz on up. Sure some get hung up on deep extension, but imo no single sub under 2k is going to offer extension into the 10hz range that will be noticed compared to the rest of the FR. The FV15HP might come close but I still think you would need duals to really make use of that 10hz extension.

I believe Dr. Hsu mentioned that it would take 2-4 VTF-3 MK2s to equal the output of the VTF-15H. I don't recall the specifics or how it translates to the MK4.

The 2-sub "smoother response" suggestion gets a little attention here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/8520#post_23737739

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post #42 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 08:06 AM
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I did that exact same thing a while ago and was told I needed 8 SVS 16-46cs+ subs and 8000 watts.
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post #43 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

I believe Dr. Hsu mentioned that it would take 2-4 VTF-3 MK2s VTFo equal the output of the VTF-15H. I don't recall the specifics or how it translates to the MK4.

The 2-sub "smoother response" suggestion gets a little attention here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/8520#post_23737739

Its easy to translate...go to HSU website and look up the cea2010 numbers for each sub. The VTF-3 MK4 is only down 1db @ 16hz and down 3db the rest of the FR. So 2 VTF-3's would most like match or have slightly more output then the VTF-15. The advantage the VTF still has is 12hz extension.

Also I dont think anybody ever said it was not possible to get a good response with one sub at the main LP. However when you are trying to get a good response across the entire room or multiple seats it is almost impossible. I also would like to see some max spl graphs before and after that EQ was applied. Curious to see how much headroom was lost with Multiple 12db cuts.
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post #44 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Actually Brian of Rythmik recommended a single FV15hp over dual LV12Rs. My single fv15hp is more than I can handle in my ~2700ft^3 seal room across my four seats but I am not as 'bass head' as most folks in this forum and never listen at reference (-10 to -15db most of the time)

Sure now just show me where to get a FV15HP for a $1100 shipping included wink.gif

I know that Brian has said he would recommend a FV15HP over dual LV12R's.

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post #45 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Its easy to translate...go to HSU website and look up the cea2010 numbers for each sub. The VTF-3 MK4 is only down 1db @ 16hz and down 3db the rest of the FR. So 2 VTF-3's would most like match or have slightly more output then the VTF-15. The advantage the VTF still has is 12hz extension.

Sorry -- I was phoning it in. You know how it is. That's impressive that the VTF-3 MK4 is down 1dB @ 16 Hz in comparison to the VTF-15H. But, it looks like the 15 has a 3.4dB advantage in the 20-31.5 Hz range and a 2.8dB advantage from 40-63 Hz. So, theoretically it could be said that it would take 2+ VTF-3s to compare to 1 VTF-15 in the lower frequencies and you would hope to match its 3.1dB overall advantage by adding a second VTF-3 to gain a likely 3dB bump. Am I reading that right?

Also I dont think anybody ever said it was not possible to get a good response with one sub at the main LP. However when you are trying to get a good response across the entire room or multiple seats it is almost impossible. I also would like to see some max spl graphs before and after that EQ was applied. Curious to see how much headroom was lost with Multiple 12db cuts.

I think the point of it was that there are many that do not have a need for even response across multiple seats and even though it is often suggested as the best solution, some see it as a compromise.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/8520#post_23738520

Wouldn't the multiple -12dB filters indicate that he had headroom to spare?

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post #46 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Have you measured to see what your response is?
I have not and not planning to as I am happy with what I hear across my four seats. Honestly I do not have time to invest in measuring equipment as I barely have time to enjoy my system. I believe the fv15hp is categorized as for extra large room (>5000 ft^3) - can't think of the link on top of my head now.
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post #47 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 10:01 AM
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Here is how I handle it as an installer we try to get a sub that will fill the room for the clients needs then place it where it will work best if we need to add another to compensate for even bass on multiple seating then we do it as long as the client approves.
We have some nice test gear that we run initially before using any RC just to make our job easier in the long run.
We do so many different rooms with odd shapes furnished so different there is no standard each situation is a learning curve.
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post #48 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Sure now just show me where to get a FV15HP for a $1100 shipping included wink.gif

I know that Brian has said he would recommend a FV15HP over dual LV12R's.
The FV15hp is about $100 more than dual LV12Rs before shipping.
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post #49 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

The FV15hp is about $100 more than dual LV12Rs before shipping.

The FV15HP is $1274, which is basically $1400 shipped, while a single LV12R is $550 shipped isn't? Plus if you buy two dont you get an extra discount?

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post #50 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 11:03 AM
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^^that was introductory price. I believe it is $589 plus shipping now for the lv12r. Yes you do get discount buying two (I forgot), so the difference is about $150-$200 going with fv15hp
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post #51 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

^^that was introductory price. I believe it is $589 plus shipping now for the lv12r. Yes you do get discount buying two (I forgot), so the difference is about $150-$200 going with fv15hp

The LV12 is 589.00 shipped or 1070.00 shipped for a pair. The FV15HP is 1416.00 shipped.
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post #52 of 52 Old 09-17-2013, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

I have not and not planning to as I am happy with what I hear across my four seats. Honestly I do not have time to invest in measuring equipment as I barely have time to enjoy my system. I believe the fv15hp is categorized as for extra large room (>5000 ft^3) - can't think of the link on top of my head now.

Audioholics gave it an Extreme bassaholic rating. However all that matters is you are happy smile.gif
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