What sub would you like to see tested next? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: What sub would you like to see tested next by Josh Ricci?
PSA XS30 11 9.91%
PSA Triax 29 26.13%
HSU ULS 15 6 5.41%
Rythmik F25 13 11.71%
Captivator 1000 3 2.70%
Captivator S2 13 11.71%
Seaton SubM 29 26.13%
Seaton SubM F2 7 6.31%
Voters: 111. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-12-2013, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Starting a Poll to see what sub you guys would like tested next? This does not mean that Josh Ricci is willing to test anymore subs. However maybe if one sub generates enough interest, he might entertain the idea. smile.gif
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Old 09-12-2013, 10:25 PM
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I would also suggest we comp him for his time as part of the crowd sourcing for potential shipping costs.
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Old 09-12-2013, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed!
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:09 AM
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I would like to see the triax, but any or all would be great.

I know there are issues measuring subs with 2 opposed drivers. How can you get an accurate reading from 3 sort-of opposed drivers?
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I know there are issues measuring subs with 2 opposed drivers. How can you get an accurate reading from 3 sort-of opposed drivers?

In cases such as the Triax or a XS30, one would need an anechoic chamber. This as opposed to the quasi-anechoic chamber tests as is the case with ground plane readings.

Subs I'd like to see tested, would be subs with wider financial (universal) appeal. Subs like the Rythmik, F25 or the PSA line such as the XS30, XV30 or XV30f, which have wider purchasing appeal. Measuring Top Dog beasts, is always a great thing to read about but the larger and more expensive a unit (group appeal), those who incorporate these beasts into their Home Theater, becomes fewer and fewer.

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Old 09-13-2013, 07:53 AM
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An article on data-bass about measuring dual or triple opposed subs:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=77

The Epik Empire has already been tested, and that's dual opposed. The Paradigm Sub 2 has also been tested and that's a triple opposed unit (with six drivers).

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Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

An article on data-bass about measuring dual or triple opposed subs:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=77

The Epik Empire has already been tested, and that's dual opposed. The Paradigm Sub 2 has also been tested and that's a triple opposed unit (with six drivers).

Thank-you. Yes, I'm aware of this information on Data-Bass.

In my incompetent, foolish, old man opinion, "REAL" anechoic chamber tests are in order as opposed to trying to knit things together with compensation files. That's what people do when they don't have a "REAL" anechoic chamber at their disposal. If people are happy with quasi-anechoic, compensated, ground plane readings and don't find fault with the results, that's on them. I guess anechoic chambers are not needed and are just for show. The sarcasm is intended as I can't see it any other way.

Because I can't incorporate a set of Triax's into our Home Theater room, we're not going be buying a Triax based subwoofer system and when we do buy, I won't be buying what we buy, based on anybody's quasi-anechoic test information. Why? I'm buying for no other reason then, based on user input, the faith I have in Rythmik or PSA products. And besides, everybody knows, once a subwoofer enters a person's Home Theater sound reproduction room, anechoic or quasi-anechoic graphed measurements aside, none of these well planned tests have any meaning. Why? Because the room of choice is going eat those sound waves up as if life itself doesn't exist.

If anybody wants to know the truth about any subwoofer, look to posted REW graphed measurements, made by "REAL" consumers as those are "REAL" world measurements one can hang a "REAL" hat on. Nothing matters until one has taken the time to dial their system in, so as to compliment the acoustics of their Home Theater listening environment.

I can't wait to read the posts which post something along the lines of: "Hi, I just took delivery of a Triax and my $300.00 subwoofer sounds better."

-
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thank-you. Yes, I'm aware of this information on Data-Bass.

In my incompetent, foolish, old man opinion, "REAL" anechoic chamber tests are in order as opposed to trying to knit things together with compensation files. That's what people do when they don't have a "REAL" anechoic chamber at their disposal. If people are happy with quasi-anechoic, compensated, ground plane readings and don't find fault with the results, that's on them. I guess anechoic chambers are not needed and are just for show. The sarcasm is intended as I can't see it any other way.

Because I can't incorporate a set of Triax's into our Home Theater room, we're not going be buying a Triax based subwoofer system and when we do buy, I won't be buying what we buy, based on anybody's quasi-anechoic test information. Why? I'm buying for no other reason then, based on user input, the faith I have in Rythmik or PSA products. And besides, everybody knows, once a subwoofer enters a person's Home Theater sound reproduction room, anechoic or quasi-anechoic graphed measurements aside, none of these well planned tests have any meaning. Why? Because the room of choice is going eat those sound waves up as if life itself doesn't exist.

If anybody wants to know the truth about any subwoofer, look to posted REW readings made by "REAL" consumers as those are "REAL" readings one can hang a "REAL" hat on.

-
I think you miss the point of the test if everything is on an even playing field then you know what each sub is capable of and of course it will be somewhat different in everyones room but it gives you an idea of what you can expect to happen in your room armed with output specs and a description of its sound under load.
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I think you miss the point of the test ....

Thanks for the thought but no, I haven't missed the point of the tests. If I might encourage you to reread what I posted as I tried to cover everything but how I understand the concept/purpose of these types of tests. Prior to your above comment, I actually edited your point out of my comments because I considered it a defensive, ego related comment. These types of ground plane tests are not "ANECHOIC" and instead, are a compensated, quasi-anechoic substitution due to not having an "ANECHOIC" chamber at one's disposal.

The further one gets from the central idea of an anechoic chamber, the more one depends on compensation files due to the fragmented nature of multiple speaker based subwoofer systems, the further one gets from reality. As I posted, if you or anybody else is good, I'm good. I'm just saying and based on what I posted, in this case, one should keep more than just one eye open.

I remember looking at posted quasi-anechoic test data and thinking wow, now that's neat suff and I remember the slamming my head took when I graphed my first measurement sweep. "Really!" That was my "Holy crap" moment. It was then and there I realized how little these tests mean to the real world. From there I set out on literally, a one year sojourn (actually the sojourn continues) to better understand the why of it all. For the effort, I'm still an incompetent old fool but I'm my own incompetent old fool that has much more than a single eye open.

Regarding comparative performance, as to what to what one can expect, on my part, in a case of oversimplification, size of driver, amplifier, type of enclosure and Xmax, coupled with user reviews and posted REW room measurements, will give most engaged consumers what they need to know. From there enters room aesthetics, budget and WAF. None of which shows in any measurements. An example, all things equal, in our Home Theater, who's the better manufacturing choice: HSU, PSA, SVS or Rythmik? For my consumer reasons, I've narrowed the field down to Rythmik and PSA and these reason have absolutely nothing to do with third party test data.

-
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:50 AM
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ugh

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Old 09-13-2013, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Subs I'd like to see tested, would be subs with wider financial (universal) appeal.

In that case, it would probably be better to test some subs for people just getting into the hobby, some of the less expensive subs.

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:00 AM
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Who has a "real" anechoic chamber to 10hz?

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-measurements

They have their place, measuring 112 ft wavelengths isnt one of them. The rest of your posts (as usual) isnt worth the time to answer. Its a slap in the face to those doing practical, useful measurements for the benefit of the community.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In cases such as the Triax or a XS30, one would need an anechoic chamber. This as opposed to the quasi-anechoic chamber tests as is the case with ground plane readings.

Subs I'd like to see tested, would be subs with wider financial (universal) appeal. Subs like the Rythmik, F25 or the PSA line such as the XS30, XV30 or XV30f, which have wider purchasing appeal. Measuring Top Dog beasts, is always a great thing to read about but the larger and more expensive a unit (group appeal), those who incorporate these beasts into their Home Theater, becomes fewer and fewer.

-

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Yes, I'm aware of this information on Data-Bass.

In my incompetent, foolish, old man opinion, "REAL" anechoic chamber tests are in order as opposed to trying to knit things together with compensation files. If people are happy with quasi-anechoic, compensated, ground plane readings and don't find fault with the results, that's on them. I guess anechoic chambers are not needed and are just for show. The sarcasm is intended as I can't see it any other way.

I'm not going buy a Triax and when we do buy, I won't be buying what we buy, based on anybody's quasi-anechoic test information. Why? I'm buying for no other reason then, based on user input, the faith I have in Rythmik or PSA products. And besides, everybody knows, once a subwoofer enters a person's Home Theater sound reproduction room, anechoic or quasi-anechoic, none of these well planned tests have any meaning. Why? Because the room of choice is going eat those sound waves up as if life itself doesn't exist.

Can you explain why it needs to be tested in an anechoic chamber? From the DB article: "A dual opposed subwoofer will always have one or both of the drivers further away from the microphone than a more standard configuration subwoofer" How does an anechoic chamber solve this issue of measuring dual or triple opposed configurations?

I don't think you understand the purpose of an anechoic chamber and its own limitations. For testing subs, the advantages of an anechoic chamber are controlled environmental conditions and lower noise floor. The disadvantages are the problems creating a real anechoic chamber for low frequencies.

I agree there are some limitations of ground plane testing because things change when the sub is moved into a room, but there is definitely a lot of useful information in the DB tests.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In cases such as the Triax or a XS30, one would need an anechoic chamber. This as opposed to the quasi-anechoic chamber tests as is the case with ground plane readings.

Subs I'd like to see tested, would be subs with wider financial (universal) appeal. Subs like the Rythmik, F25 or the PSA line such as the XS30, XV30 or XV30f, which have wider purchasing appeal. Measuring Top Dog beasts, is always a great thing to read about but the larger and more expensive a unit (group appeal), those who incorporate these beasts into their Home Theater, becomes fewer and fewer.

-

There is a poll at the top of the thread Bee...vote and move on please. I dont want this thread to turn to muck, so lets keep it short and sweet shall we? smile.gif
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post


Can you explain why it needs to be tested in an anechoic chamber? From the DB article: "A dual opposed subwoofer will always have one or both of the drivers further away from the microphone than a more standard configuration subwoofer" How does an anechoic chamber solve this issue of measuring dual or triple opposed configurations?

I don't think you understand the purpose of an anechoic chamber and its own limitations. For testing subs, the advantages of an anechoic chamber are controlled environmental conditions and lower noise floor. The disadvantages are the problems creating a real anechoic chamber for low frequencies.

I agree there are some limitations of ground plane testing because things change when the sub is moved into a room, but there is definitely a lot of useful information in the DB tests.

please nevermind those comments and lets stay on track. smile.gif
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:13 AM
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Submersive, the one in production now, not a future super submersive. You know, the one that is the benchmark.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:13 AM
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Why
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In cases such as the Triax or a XS30, one would need an anechoic chamber. This as opposed to the quasi-anechoic chamber tests as is the case with ground plane readings.

Subs I'd like to see tested, would be subs with wider financial (universal) appeal. Subs like the Rythmik, F25 or the PSA line such as the XS30, XV30 or XV30f, which have wider purchasing appeal. Measuring Top Dog beasts, is always a great thing to read about but the larger and more expensive a unit (group appeal), those who incorporate these beasts into their Home Theater, becomes fewer and fewer.

-
nonsense. Let's start with my all in one bass module that came with my soundbar

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks for the thought but no, I haven't missed the point of the tests. If I might encourage you to reread what I posted as I tried to cover everything but how I understand the concept/purpose of these types of tests. Prior to your above comment, I actually edited your point out of my comments because I considered it a defensive, ego related comment. These types of ground plane tests are not "ANECHOIC" and instead, are a compensated, quasi-anechoic substitution due to not having an "ANECHOIC" chamber at one's disposal.

The further one gets from the central idea of an anechoic chamber, the more one depends on compensation files due to the fragmented nature of multiple speaker based subwoofer systems, the further one gets from reality. As I posted, if you or anybody else is good, I'm good. I'm just saying and based on what I posted, in this case, one should keep more than just one eye open.

I remember looking at posted quasi-anechoic test data and thinking wow, now that's neat suff and I remember the slamming my head took when I graphed my first measurement sweep. "Really!" That was my "Holy crap" moment. It was then and there I realized how little these tests mean to the real world. From there I set out on literally, a one year sojourn (actually the sojourn continues) to better understand the why of it all. For the effort, I'm still an incompetent old fool but I'm my own incompetent old fool that has much more than a single eye open.

Regarding comparative performance, as to what to what one can expect, on my part, in a case of oversimplification, size of driver, amplifier, type of enclosure and Xmax, coupled with user reviews and posted REW room measurements, will give most engaged consumers what they need to know. From there enters room aesthetics, budget and WAF. None of which shows in any measurements. An example, all things equal, in our Home Theater, who's the better manufacturing choice: HSU, PSA, SVS or Rythmik? For my consumer reasons, I've narrowed the field down to Rythmik and PSA and these reason have absolutely nothing to do with third party test data.

-

I don't believe your last sentence,. You know that the PSA and especially the Rythmik tested well over at DB! So of course they look like great choices.

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:34 AM
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To most of us we find these test very useful and appreciate the time and knowledge these people put into it because without them we would have to rely on personal experience and posters opinions with or without valid testing equipment heck its hard enough just to get posters to purchase a db meter much less software,mic and stand.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:41 AM
 
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There is a poll at the top of the thread Bee...vote and move on please. I dont want this thread to turn to muck, so lets keep it short and sweet shall we? smile.gif

Vote was put in. I made comments that are directly pertinent to the topic of this thread. It's your thread. The intent of my comments is to stimulate conversation, challenging the testing methods for multiple driver subwoofers. The intent is not to muck up a thread. I'm happy to move on.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:43 AM
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Triax! biggrin.gif

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:43 AM
 
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Idon't believe your last sentence,. You know that the PSA and especially the Rythmik tested well over at DB! So of course they look like great choices.

I've been asked by the OP to move on. I'll respond in PM.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:45 AM
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Too funny!

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:45 AM
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None of those subs are under $1k, and most people looking to buy subs aren't looking to spend that much. It would be more useful to have the performance of budget subs that are often recommended but whose performance is still not really known, like the BIC F12, Klipsch RW12d, Dayton 1200, etc. Who knows, there might be some pleasant surprises in there. Two other subs which I suspect might be real achievers for their price which I would be interested in seeing measurements: the Klipsch SW-115 and the Dayton Dual Driver kit. I would also be interested in seeing tests on that crazy 24" Stereo Integrity driver, along with the Dayton Ultimax and Titanic 4 drivers.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

None of those subs are under $1k, and most people looking to buy subs aren't looking to spend that much. It would be more useful to have the performance of budget subs that are often recommended but whose performance is still not really known, like the BIC F12, Klipsch RW12d, Dayton 1200, etc. Who knows, there might be some pleasant surprises in there. Two other subs which I suspect might be real achievers for their price which I would be interested in seeing measurements: the Klipsch SW-115 and the Dayton Dual Driver kit. I would also be interested in seeing tests on that crazy 24" Stereo Integrity driver, along with the Dayton Ultimax and Titanic 4 drivers.

I have a feeling more people would rather see subs like F25, XS30, Triax, SubM HP or F2, JTR Cap's tested then a few sub $500 subwoofers.

I think there's plenty off feed back and reviews on lower priced subs because people can afford them much easier.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:47 AM
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I have a feeling more people would rather see subs like F25, XS30, Triax, SubM HP or F2, JTR Cap's tested then a few sub $500 subwoofers.

Most people who?

Shadyj is right. Those that help out on the speaker forum know there might be as many requests for sub recommendations there as part of new HT setups as there are here in the sub forum. That $200-$500 budget area serves far more people that come to AVS for help.

Different audience, though.

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Old 09-13-2013, 12:12 PM
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I guess we will know by how the majority votes .
One can always start a poll with a different price category but the usual trend in the sub 500.00 category is the fact no matter what is recommended the OP buys whats on sale most of the time or at least most of the threads I have read.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:14 PM
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Really guys, they all need to be tested, just the subjectively better ones. I would say the best collective subs people like on AVS breaking down in ranges of price. A couple $200-$400 subs, etc... It is called Data-bass and the more data the better. The submersive has been talked about as the best for many years so it should get tested, the one getting high marks, not a new and improved one.

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Old 09-13-2013, 12:17 PM
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I think the poll should have listed the submersive/f2 on the same line. performance should be identical. i just picked the f2 since it'd be simpler to measure since it's not dual opposed and people wouldn't have to worry about any compensation smile.gif

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Old 09-13-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Really guys, they all need to be tested, just the subjectively better ones. I would say the best collective subs people like on AVS breaking down in ranges of price. A couple $200-$400 subs, etc... It is called Data-bass and the more data the better. The submersive has been talked about as the best for many years so it should get tested, the one getting high marks, not a new and improved one.

I was over at Data last night digging around checking on the weight of certain drivers and then over laying graphs of certain ID subs. That site is something else, what a nice tool for us members to use! Invaluable imo. Anyway I stepped in here to put my vote in for the PB/C+ and noticed no +! but there is the subm.. Ah that’s right, I forgot about that. Yeap! I hope it’s next. We should have a thread like this over in DIY for drivers, not that Ricci doesn’t already have plenty on his plate. Great thread imo bass and think it’s totally way cool we might get to have some input.

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