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post #1 of 29 Old 09-14-2013, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I just ordered 4 of the same subs. And was thinking of taking out my SMS-1 out of the chain when I setup the new subs. I also thinking of going with a 2x4 mini dsp with rew. But then since I'm gonna run 2 up front and 2 at back is a sub EQ really necessary? I would rather spend on room treatments instead. I dunno what you guys think?
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post #2 of 29 Old 09-14-2013, 08:24 PM
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Does your avr or pre/pro have any type of EQ like Audyssey?

Although spreading out four subs will help eliminate nulls, you will still need some EQ to cut some frequencies.

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post #3 of 29 Old 09-14-2013, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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My avr has MCACC so it does nothing to EQ the sub. It only adjust distance and phase. Then I goin manually to level match.
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post #4 of 29 Old 09-14-2013, 08:55 PM
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I would keep the SMS then. Unless you want the flexibility of minidsp. You would still want to EQ them as one though so I'm not sure you would see a real benefit over the SMS. Although I have never used an SMS so take that into consideration.

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post #5 of 29 Old 09-14-2013, 08:55 PM
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Best bet is to measure first and see if you are going to need any eq. 4 subs evenly placed can effectively smooth all modes.
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post #6 of 29 Old 09-14-2013, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Best bet is to measure first and see if you are going to need any eq. 4 subs evenly placed can effectively smooth all modes.

Yes. Measure before you go sell anything but I can almost guarantee you will still need to EQ some peaks.

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post #7 of 29 Old 09-14-2013, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Guess I'll run the SMS 1 first and see what the results will be. I now there is a preset in my SMS that cancels all eq that was done so I can compare. Any thanks bro' s
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post #8 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 12:06 AM
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I have four SVS SB13-ULTRA subs up the front and Four Velodyne 10" in the rear connected to the SMS-1, I also have DSP Antimode 2.0 and Audyssey XT-32

First I run the SMS-1 on the four rear Velodynes and save the manual adjusted best flat response. I then run the four front SVS subs combined with the four rear Velodyne (EQ'd subs) with DSP Antimode 2.00 with five mic positions and save that EQ.
After that I run Audyssey XT-32 with eight mic positions, by this stage most of the hard work has been done before Audyssey EQ. I also have plenty of good room treatments, I have gone as far as I can to really improve the bass in the room.wink.gif
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post #9 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 12:09 AM
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Forgot to mention, don't get rid of the SMS-1 use all the tricks in the books to get the best possible bass you can, but don't leave room treatments out of the equation.
EQ can only go so far, room treatments have proven to me the icing on the cake, EQ does the last bit that EQ cant.
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post #10 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 01:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Forgot to mention, don't get rid of the SMS-1 use all the tricks in the books to get the best possible bass you can, but don't leave room treatments out of the equation.
EQ can only go so far, room treatments have proven to me the icing on the cake, EQ does the last bit that EQ cant.



Alright! Thanks bro.. Don't know why I was thinking of taking SMS-1 out of the chain. It's a keeper. Thanks for the encouragement for room treatments. I've been doing a lot of research on them. Wasn't to sure if they'll make a great impact on sound. Btw bro, that is a lot of sub you got there. Nice setup. I have 4 JTR S2's coming. And It should be more then enough for my 20x20x10 room. I just sold my dual SC Reference today. Gonna miss those. Ok now room treatments is my next upgrade..
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post #11 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I would keep the SMS then. Unless you want the flexibility of minidsp. You would still want to EQ them as one though so I'm not sure you would see a real benefit over the SMS. Although I have never used an SMS so take that into consideration.


I think the only reason I wanted to go with the minidsp because it has inputs for a L/R LFE. Because my AVR has a L/R LFE outs. And it does do the distance and phase for each channel if 2 subs are connected. SMS-1 only has one signal going out.
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post #12 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

I think the only reason I wanted to go with the minidsp because it has inputs for a L/R LFE. Because my AVR has a L/R LFE outs. And it does do the distance and phase for each channel if 2 subs are connected. SMS-1 only has one signal going out.

The 2 x 4 models have only 2 inputs.

When you say your avr has left and right outputs are you sure they are not just for a second zone? If you have only left and right outputs and not the center, surround etc. it's probably just for second zone only.

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post #13 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I'm sure..when MCACC runs the test tones, there's seperate test tone go through each sub. In sequence. And my LFE outs are labeled L/R.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-09tx-av-receiver

This is the receiver I have. Its kind of old like 4 1/2 years old. But still a solid avr.
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post #14 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 05:42 PM
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MCACC does address the subwoofer performance down to 63 Hz. If you look in the GUI menu under standing wave, there are 3 filters for the sub that 1.) target a frequency, 2.) adjust the bandwidth, and 3.) gain or attenuation. This is identical to a PEQ. The problem frequencies under 63 Hz are address in the 2nd or 3rd harmonic above 63 Hz. The frequencies above 63 Hz are more what we hear. I have PEQ and DEQ to use with my subs and Pioneer Elite SC 35. There is only two//// things to do under 63 Hz, cut one peak or a bass boost near 20-25 Hz. Most subs have a built in bass boost and the peak between 35-60 Hz is address has I have previously stated. It is amazing how the misinformation spreads concerning MCACC and subwoofer bass management. Check the Pioneer thread, you don't see a lot of the people rushing out to buy some form of sub EQ.

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post #15 of 29 Old 09-15-2013, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

MCACC does address the subwoofer performance down to 63 Hz. If you look in the GUI menu under standing wave, there are 3 filters for the sub that 1.) target a frequency, 2.) adjust the bandwidth, and 3.) gain or attenuation. This is identical to a PEQ. The problem frequencies under 63 Hz are address in the 2nd or 3rd harmonic above 63 Hz. The frequencies above 63 Hz are more what we hear. I have PEQ and DEQ to use with my subs and Pioneer Elite SC 35. There is only two//// things to do under 63 Hz, cut one peak or a bass boost near 20-25 Hz. Most subs have a built in bass boost and the peak between 35-60 Hz is address has I have previously stated. It is amazing how the misinformation spreads concerning MCACC and subwoofer bass management. Check the Pioneer thread, you don't see a lot of the people rushing out to buy some form of sub EQ.


Funny for some reason when I take the SMS-1 out of the chain and recalibrate. It sounds...how should I say this, louder and more punchier. I don't know, it could be a me listening to hard. Any way, I have quad JTR S2's coming. And I was gonna just use 2 y-splitter for each of my LFE outs from the avar for L/R order. 2 S2's up front L/C. And 2 S2's at the rear L/R.
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post #16 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

Funny for some reason when I take the SMS-1 out of the chain and recalibrate. It sounds...how should I say this, louder and more punchier. I don't know, it could be a me listening to hard. Any way, I have quad JTR S2's coming. And I was gonna just use 2 y-splitter for each of my LFE outs from the avar for L/R order. 2 S2's up front L/C. And 2 S2's at the rear L/R.

When you remove the SMS-1 it probably does sound louder and punchier, that's if the EQ on the SMS-1 was done properly. A proper EQ on the SMS-1 would have pulled down the peeks and improved some of the nulls making the subs have a flatter response. Remove the SMS-1 and you return the peaks making the bass much louder, punchier, but far from a flat response. You have to decide what you want, louder, puncher with lots of peeks, or a flatter response with smoother more pleasant bass.....

I know the one I like....
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post #17 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

When you remove the SMS-1 it probably does sound louder and punchier, that's if the EQ on the SMS-1 was done properly. A proper EQ on the SMS-1 would have pulled down the peeks and improved some of the nulls making the subs have a flatter response. Remove the SMS-1 and you return the peaks making the bass much louder, punchier, but far from a flat response. You have to decide what you want, louder, puncher with lots of peeks, or a flatter response with smoother more pleasant bass.....

I know the one I like....


I guess I'm gonna experiment with the EQ and without it when my new subs arrive. But until it comes in, I'll be looking into room treatments.
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post #18 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 05:04 AM
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With 4 subs, eq isn't as important as if you had one sub. I suggest setting up your 4 subs and see how it sounds. If it doesn't sound right, then look at placement, room treatment, dsp, etc... . My hunch is the 4 subs will sound great without having to do anything.
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post #19 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

I guess I'm gonna experiment with the EQ and without it when my new subs arrive. But until it comes in, I'll be looking into room treatments.

Use the eq as a last resort...experiment with placement. EQ,ing eats headroom, however now that you have quad S2's on the way, that probably wont be a issue. 4 subs properly placed can effectively smooth all room modes. So chances are you will need very little eq'ing if any, which will make for one kick ass sub system!
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post #20 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 12:51 PM
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I personally don't strive for a completely flat response, MCACC preserves a great mid bass slam for that kick in the chest. I tried flat and did not like the cut in the mid bass using PEQ. I have a 7db peak around 45 Hz. This way it sounds great for movies and music. My concern is not with looking at a graph but, enjoying the movies and music. Most room will have a peak under and 80 Hz XO in the 45-70 Hz region which is not bad in many cases. MCACC's reverb function will kept things nice and tight if everything is setup correctly. It is like my doctor told me, treat the whole patient and not the lab values, lol. Experiment and see what you like. MCACC is one of the best system for total system integration and allows more tweaking options post calibration.

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post #21 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

I guess I'm gonna experiment with the EQ and without it when my new subs arrive. But until it comes in, I'll be looking into room treatments.

Definitely keep your SMS-1 until you get the new subs. Even if you don't use it as an EQ, it's a very nice, real-time measurement system. You can use it to install and integrate the subs. THEN you can decide if you need EQ or not.

Another poster cautioned that EQ reduces headroom. EQ only reduces headroom if you use boost. If you only use cuts in the EQ, it will actually INCREASE headroom. With 4 subs properly placed, you should be able to eliminate all the nulls. Then, if you still have peaks left, you can use a few bands of parametric EQ to knock them down.

Another nice feature of the SMS-1 is that you can set up different curves for different applications. If you like a house curve for movies, you can add one and save it as a preset. If you like a little extra at 40 Hz for music, you can dial that in and save it as a preset. Etc. Etc.

Finally, the SMS-1 gives you a separate, independent Volume Control just for the subs, and it has its' own remote control.

Good luck.

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post #22 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Definitely keep your SMS-1 until you get the new subs. Even if you don't use it as an EQ, it's a very nice, real-time measurement system. You can use it to install and integrate the subs. THEN you can decide if you need EQ or not.

Another poster cautioned that EQ reduces headroom. EQ only reduces headroom if you use boost. If you only use cuts in the EQ, it will actually INCREASE headroom. With 4 subs properly placed, you should be able to eliminate all the nulls. Then, if you still have peaks left, you can use a few bands of parametric EQ to knock them down.

Another nice feature of the SMS-1 is that you can set up different curves for different applications. If you like a house curve for movies, you can add one and save it as a preset. If you like a little extra at 40 Hz for music, you can dial that in and save it as a preset. Etc. Etc.

Finally, the SMS-1 gives you a separate, independent Volume Control just for the subs, and it has its' own remote control.

Good luck.

Craig

If you pull down a peak by more than 6db it can and will eat up headroom because other frequencies around that peak will need boosted to some degree. Also it tends to degrade the sound quality some too. its better to use the eq as a last resort function from what I understand.
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post #23 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

If you pull down a peak by more than 6db it can and will eat up headroom because other frequencies around that peak will need boosted to some degree. Also it tends to degrade the sound quality some too. its better to use the eq as a last resort function from what I understand.
It depends on how you use the parametric EQ. The SMS-1 has a "Q" adjustment that allows the user to select how wide the EQ band is. If you're just pulling down a narrow peak, you use a narrow EQ band. If it's a wide peak, you use a wide EQ band. If you use an appropriately wide EQ band, the effect on adjacent frequencies can be minimized.

I agree it is best to use EQ as the "last resort." Adjustments should be made in the following order:

1. Adjust in-room positioning, (this includes BOTH the subwoofer placement(s) AND the listening position.)
2. Adjust the room acoustics, (this includes bass traps, but bass traps have limited benefit at the lowest frequencies.)
3. Tweak the final result with EQ.

I recently turned this response:



...into this response:



This was with a combination of an SMS-1 and Audyssey XT32. The owner of that system described the sound as:
Quote:
Then... Something magical happened. We started to just listen to some clips and do some fine tuning. What I heard was probably the BEST sound I had EVER had in my room.

His room has bass traps and acoustic treatments. We spent considerable time positioning his subwoofer. But the EQ was the icing on the cake that allowed the sound to really open up.

Craig

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post #24 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

But then since I'm gonna run 2 up front and 2 at back is a sub EQ really necessary?
Yes. Multiple subs will smooth room modes, but that in and of itself won't give flat response at the LP.

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post #25 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

It depends on how you use the parametric EQ. The SMS-1 has a "Q" adjustment that allows the user to select how wide the EQ band is. If you're just pulling down a narrow peak, you use a narrow EQ band. If it's a wide peak, you use a wide EQ band. If you use an appropriately wide EQ band, the effect on adjacent frequencies can be minimized.

I agree it is best to use EQ as the "last resort." Adjustments should be made in the following order:

1. Adjust in-room positioning, (this includes BOTH the subwoofer placement(s) AND the listening position.)
2. Adjust the room acoustics, (this includes bass traps, but bass traps have limited benefit at the lowest frequencies.)
3. Tweak the final result with EQ.

I recently turned this response:



...into this response:



This was with a combination of an SMS-1 and Audyssey XT32. The owner of that system described the sound as:
His room has bass traps and acoustic treatments. We spent considerable time positioning his subwoofer. But the EQ was the icing on the cake that allowed the sound to really open up.

Craig

I have a mini dsp that has the same adjustments. Read graphs from bottom up.

3 xv15's no eq



2 XV15's eq'd flat


2 XV15's no eq


the graph in the middle had the least amount of headroom and less sound quality at higher volumes...but sounded great down low. I will admit maybe I did something wrong and the slight boost in the low end can attribute for loss of headroom.
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post #26 of 29 Old 09-16-2013, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks bro's. I really thought when running up to 4 subs would smooth FR a lot without EQ. Oh well, won't be able to know till the subs come in. This what my current setup looks like now with the dual SC Reference..





I just got these subs 5 months ago brand new. And the SMS-1 maybe 4 months ago also brand new. I didn't play the SMS-1 much. I know, the low end needs some major boost. But don't think these SC Reference can go that low. That's probably one of the reasons I'm already upgrading. So now my brother is gonna buy these Reference from me.
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post #27 of 29 Old 09-17-2013, 05:58 AM
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Eq'ing can reduce headroom but it doesn't necessarily reduce headroom.

For example, if you have a dip, you can try and boost the frequencies in the dip to get an even FR, but if the dip is very deep, like a null, you probably won't be able to boost it away, so your only option is to lower the other frequencies. In this case, eq'ing will reduce your headroom.

If you have minor dips and peaks, you can probably eq it and not effect headroom much at all.
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post #28 of 29 Old 09-17-2013, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Eq'ing can reduce headroom but it doesn't necessarily reduce headroom.

For example, if you have a dip, you can try and boost the frequencies in the dip to get an even FR, but if the dip is very deep, like a null, you probably won't be able to boost it away, so your only option is to lower the other frequencies. In this case, eq'ing will reduce your headroom.

If you have minor dips and peaks, you can probably eq it and not effect headroom much at all.

agreed...I think my issue was having to knock down such a big peak. Adding the third was a major improvement in response. Now I can use the mini-dsp to further tweak without effecting headroom. Also it may not bother some folks to loose a little headroom. I find myself feeling a bit spirited at times and call for 120db + out of my subs.
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post #29 of 29 Old 09-17-2013, 08:12 AM
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Thanks bro's. I really thought when running up to 4 subs would smooth FR a lot without EQ. Oh well, won't be able to know till the subs come in. This what my current setup looks like now with the dual SC Reference..





I just got these subs 5 months ago brand new. And the SMS-1 maybe 4 months ago also brand new. I didn't play the SMS-1 much. I know, the low end needs some major boost. But don't think these SC Reference can go that low. That's probably one of the reasons I'm already upgrading. So now my brother is gonna buy these Reference from me.

I wouldnt boost the low end with those subs...wait till the Caps come in and get rid of those SC reference before your brother gets a chance to listen to the them. Its going to be a whole different ball game.
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