2 SVS SB12-NSD or 1 Rythmik F12 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 09-18-2013, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking to replace an old Velodyne F1500 (a borrowed sub) that is a nearly perfect 20 inch cube. Unfortunately, to my wife, size DOES matter, but in this case smaller is better. She has seen the SVS SB12-NSD and is okay with me getting 2 because individually they are less “intrusive” than the Velodyne. I might be able to convince her to get one Rythmik F12 (only one because it is bigger), but that may be too big for her.

These will be going in my family room which is about 15 x 20 feet with a 9 foot ceiling. It is open to a kitchen and the rest of the house on the left. The TV is on the 20 foot wall and the couch is about 11 feet from the wall. The sub(s) will be along the wall that the TV is on, and possibly in the right front corner of the room. I know that I will never pressurize the entire area, but I have to live with that. We will use it for about 60% TV / movies and 40% music. We don’t listen at loud levels, nowhere near reference, so I am just looking for the best bass that I can get in a small size at a reasonable cost of around $900 to $1,200.

I am leaning towards the 2 SB12’s for a more balanced response, but wanted to get some of your thoughts on whether the single R12 with it’s lower frequency would be better. Or any other ideas considering size and cost.
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post #2 of 29 Old 09-18-2013, 06:17 PM
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Tough choice...

You could always
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"What do you mean, your not going to take back this big @$$ subwoofer even it it twice as expensive as the one I paid for !!!"
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"You mean I dont need to pay for the difference"
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post #3 of 29 Old 09-18-2013, 06:28 PM
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Get two pb1000's and tell her she will get used to them. cool.gif


Seriously though. They are not big at all. They are smaller than that velodyne. And with your space I think you would appreciatte the output.


Out of those two I would get the dual svs's. I have owned he f12. Great sub but not enough for your space IMO. I'm also a big fan of multiple subs.

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post #4 of 29 Old 09-18-2013, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Even the pb1000 is too big. We actually stopped by the showroom on a trip from Detroit to Philadelphia and the "boss" saw all the SVS options. All the vented subs are too big. I would really love the SB13 Ultra but - too big. mad.gif I know I should just get it and let her live with it, but that has consequences of its own - and those aren't good. frown.gif It is looking like the dual sb12's are the way to go.
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post #5 of 29 Old 09-18-2013, 08:43 PM
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What about a single PSA XS15? Slightly smaller than your Velodyne.

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post #6 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 04:31 AM
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I'd go with the dual SVS in this case.
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post #7 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

What about a single PSA XS15? Slightly smaller than your Velodyne.
I know that is a great sub, but still too big, and the velodyne is way, way to big for her - I just borrowed it to let her know what a sub would add to the sound. I have read about other small subs, but I don't know if anything would be better for the price and size than the sb12-nsd, especially since she okayed 2 of them. She thinks 2 smaller subs would be less intrusive than 1 big sub.
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post #8 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post

I'd go with the dual SVS in this case.
That's the way I am leaning unless I hear of a better option.
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post #9 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 05:59 AM
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The SVS SB12-NSD is the better sub of your two options, anyway. It has smooth response up to 200Hz, and doesn't have that cockamamie servo nonsense. Also, nobody as SVS is daft enough to tell you that changing the wire between your sub out and sub amp will change the sub's performance.

Multiples are basically always better than one, too, if deployed well.

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post #10 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 07:17 AM
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^^
Really, SB12 is better than F12? Got proof? It should be the other way around. I have the sb12nsd and it is a good sub for its size but I think the F12 is better. You might not hear the difference what servo drive can do but lots of folks here can. With that said, I would take 2 sb12's over a single f12 though.
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post #11 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickx View Post

I know that is a great sub, but still too big, and the velodyne is way, way to big for her - I just borrowed it to let her know what a sub would add to the sound. I have read about other small subs, but I don't know if anything would be better for the price and size than the sb12-nsd, especially since she okayed 2 of them. She thinks 2 smaller subs would be less intrusive than 1 big sub.

Oh well. I think the SB12s would be your best bet.

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post #12 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

^^
Really, SB12 is better than F12? Got proof? It should be the other way around. I have the sb12nsd and it is a good sub for its size but I think the F12 is better.

Just look at the frequency response of both. The SB12, with its excellent Peerless XXLS12, goes much higher. People who care about fidelity understand that crossovers aren't brick walls, and FR of a sub an octave or more above the nominal passband is important.

Bottom line is that the servo is a solution looking for a problem to solve.

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post #13 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 08:35 AM
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... She has seen the SVS SB12-NSD and is okay with me getting 2 because individually they are less “intrusive” than the Velodyne. I might be able to convince her to get one Rythmik F12 (only one because it is bigger) ...

These will be going in my family room which is about 15 x 20 feet with a 9 foot ceiling. It is open to a kitchen and the rest of the house on the left. ... I know that I will never pressurize the entire area, but I have to live with that. We will use it for about 60% TV / movies and 40% music. We don’t listen at loud levels, nowhere near reference, so I am just looking for the best bass that I can get in a small size at a reasonable cost of around $900 to $1,200.

I am leaning towards the 2 SB12’s for a more balanced response, but wanted to get some of your thoughts on whether the single R12 with it’s lower frequency would be better.
You have a large room open to an even larger space. IMO, it is unlikely that you'll get 14Hz at any meaningful level of output from a single Rythmik F12. I'd go with dual SVS SB-12NSDs for good output, extension* and smoother FR across the listening position.

(*Duals + some room gain should provide meaningful output down to or just under 20Hz.)
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post #14 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 08:38 AM
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The LFE in stretches the Rythmik's response to 200 Hz.
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post #15 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Just look at the frequency response of both. The SB12, with its excellent Peerless XXLS12, goes much higher. People who care about fidelity understand that crossovers aren't brick walls, and FR of a sub an octave or more above the nominal passband is important.

Bottom line is that the servo is a solution looking for a problem to solve.
Huh? The F12 frequency response is 14-200hz with LFE input so it digs down a lot deeper than the sb12.
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The LFE in stretches the Rythmik's response to 200 Hz.
that is correct.
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post #16 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 11:08 AM
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Huh? The F12 frequency response is 14-200hz with LFE input so it digs down a lot deeper than the sb12.
that is correct.

14 Hz is certainly overstating the F12's response. It's a sealed 12 with not a lot of power or a really long excursion driver. It isn't going to do any better at 14 Hz than the SB12. Between them I would go for the F12, but not for reasons of output or extension.
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post #17 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all your input. This has confirmed my initial thoughts that were only based on reading other threads. I will be placing my order today for 2 sb12's and then the real fun begins - placement and sub crawls.
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post #18 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

14 Hz is certainly overstating the F12's response. It's a sealed 12 with not a lot of power or a really long excursion driver. It isn't going to do any better at 14 Hz than the SB12. Between them I would go for the F12, but not for reasons of output or extension.
I know. I just listed the FR to point out to DS21 as I don't understand what he was talking about.
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post #19 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Huh? The F12 frequency response is 14-200hz with LFE input so it digs down a lot deeper than the sb12.

I'll believe that see an actual 3d party measurement showing it. All of the real measurements of Rythmik boxes I've seen have shown top end rolloffs way before 200Hz. And I don't trust Ding's measurements in the least. The flake thinks that swapping interconnects can change the sound of a sub, so his technical competence is highly lacking. (I'm using the data-bass measurements for my claims about the SVS.)

As for down low, yes a larger closed box will be more efficient than a smaller closed box. The louder one will be the one with more throw, which might be either one. But anyone who believes that any 12" woofer in a closed box can deliver 14Hz at perceptually relevant levels in a domestic living room is ignorant of the relevant science. In a car, sure. But at home, not a chance. Keep in mind that a given level at 14Hz requires 4x the excursion of the same level at 28Hz, and the human auditory system is also markedly less sensitive to sounds down that low.

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post #20 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 03:37 PM
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post #21 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 08:36 PM
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I would go dual sb-12's.
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post #22 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I'll believe that see an actual 3d party measurement showing it. All of the real measurements of Rythmik boxes I've seen have shown top end rolloffs way before 200Hz. And I don't trust Ding's measurements in the least. The flake thinks that swapping interconnects can change the sound of a sub, so his technical competence is highly lacking. (I'm using the data-bass measurements for my claims about the SVS.)

As for down low, yes a larger closed box will be more efficient than a smaller closed box. The louder one will be the one with more throw, which might be either one. But anyone who believes that any 12" woofer in a closed box can deliver 14Hz at perceptually relevant levels in a domestic living room is ignorant of the relevant science. In a car, sure. But at home, not a chance. Keep in mind that a given level at 14Hz requires 4x the excursion of the same level at 28Hz, and the human auditory system is also markedly less sensitive to sounds down that low.

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post #23 of 29 Old 09-19-2013, 09:34 PM
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Never heared the sb12nsd, but I had a PB1000 and now I have the Rythmik F15. I would go for the Rythmik, it made the PB1000 seem like a boom box in comparison... And the PB1000 was a great sub!
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post #24 of 29 Old 09-20-2013, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Never heared the sb12nsd, but I had a PB1000 and now I have the Rythmik F15. I would go for the Rythmik, it made the PB1000 seem like a boom box in comparison... And the PB1000 was a great sub!
I can understand how the 15" F15 would sound better than the 10" PB1000. But I am looking at both 12" versions.
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post #25 of 29 Old 09-20-2013, 07:01 AM
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If you want an alternative and can stand to do a little assembly yourself, you might check out this 12" sealed Dayton Titanic 4 Kit. It's using a pretty good driver, I wouldn't be surprised if it punched a bit harder than the SB12.
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post #26 of 29 Old 09-20-2013, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you want an alternative and can stand to do a little assembly yourself, you might check out this 12" sealed Dayton Titanic 4 Kit.

Not sure that's really worthwhile; you save $20, but the return policy is far less generous (you build it, you keep it), as is the warranty (5 year bumper to bumper vs 5 year on the driver, 1 on the amp).
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post #27 of 29 Old 09-20-2013, 12:51 PM
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I think there is a good chance it could substantially outperform the SVS, given the SVS's pretty strict limiters. It's xmax would be significantly more than the SB12 anyway, depending on how close the NSD driver is to the peerless XXLS-12.
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post #28 of 29 Old 09-20-2013, 12:55 PM
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Order all of them and return the one you don't like then smile.gif I would recommend investing in a measurement mic from cross spectrum, placement is super important when it comes to subwoofers, more so than the subwoofer themselves.
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post #29 of 29 Old 09-20-2013, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I think there is a good chance it could substantially outperform the SVS, given the SVS's pretty strict limiters. It's xmax would be significantly more than the SB12 anyway, depending on how close the NSD driver is to the peerless XXLS-12.

I wouldn't bet the farm, at least depending on your definition of substantial. The Titanic driver isn't particularly sensitive, so even with a 500W amp driving it, the kit isn't likely to deliver much more output up high. There's some added potential down low, but the translation from modeling to real world could very well eat into that. Suffice it to say, from what I see, you aren't buying SB13U performance for SB12NSD prices.
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