Thinking of upgrading my Paradigm Sub 25.....suggestions? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Dual subs don't have to be harder than a single sub to setup. They just take more work to perfect, but right off the bat, if you just want to set it up and forget about it, they could easily give you a better response than a single sub right away. As opposed to a single sub, they take less work to get a good, but more work to get perfect. If you want the best sound right away and don't want to tweak stuff, duals actually make more sense.

HAHAHA ... I see where this is going, you're thinking "crap now he's thinking about getting a Triax so I'll stop recommending the Funk and start pushing a dual FV15HP setup".....LOL

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post #92 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 11:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Lol....well that didn't take long to remove the Triax from you list. Honestly I think most would agree other then shadyj that the Triax will have more output then all three subs you have listed.

I have said the Triax would likely have the most output overall, except possibly around the tuning points of dual FV15HPs or the 18.3. However, I think sound quality may be a different story.
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post #93 of 168 Old 09-27-2013, 11:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

HAHAHA ... I see where this is going, you're thinking "crap now he's thinking about getting a Triax so I'll stop recommending the Funk and start pushing a dual FV15HP setup".....LOL

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Tell me am I wrong about dual subs?
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post #94 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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If I am going to consider dual subs as an option still, can someone help me at least narrow it down to one choice between the FV15HP and F25? In the overall grand scheme of movie listening only, which dual combination will out-do the other?
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post #95 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:23 AM
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The FV15HP will have a slight advantage around port tune, the F25 should extend lower in your room with around 4db more output above 40hz. I personally would go with the F25's, but either will be great.

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post #96 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The FV15HP will have a slight advantage around port tune, the F25 should extend lower in your room with around 4db more output above 40hz. I personally would go with the F25's, but either will be great.

I love the idea of dual F25's.....but without having (or wanting) to get something like REW and messing around with placement for a whole day, is there a surefire "quick" setup method for dual subs? Besides the two spots available at the front of the room (between Left/Center and Right/Center), I also have a spot in the back left corner of the room. Would it just be fool-proof to place both in the front of the room, opposite sides of the center speaker, or is one in the front right corner and one in the back left corner a better "fool proof" idea?

Also, once duals are placed, all I do is level match them manually to my MLP before running any EQ software like ARC or Audyssey, correct?
Do I need to worry about the phase settings? And what's the "Damping" setting for?


Again, I have been spoiled (or ignorant) to the setup and forget method of Paradigm subs with PBK.....dual sub setup done correctly is something newish to me.
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post #97 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:41 AM
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If you have the space, using multiple large subwoofers like the F25's is certainly a respectable choice. Looking at your photos, do you have enough room?

*
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post #98 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:48 AM
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Well Tom V. just posted the new numbers with the updated drivers on the Triax. Average output from 20-63hz 2m open ground is 125.39db!! Thats a 3.4db increase over the original drivers. Not to mention That is within 1.8db of the Gjallahorn and 2.6db of the Othorn in the 20-80hz region...those numbers would put it in the Top 4 most powerful subs on data-bass.

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post #99 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I love the idea of dual F25's.....but without having (or wanting) to get something like REW and messing around with placement for a whole day, is there a surefire "quick" setup method for dual subs? Besides the two spots available at the front of the room (between Left/Center and Right/Center), I also have a spot in the back left corner of the room. Would it just be fool-proof to place both in the front of the room, opposite sides of the center speaker, or is one in the front right corner and one in the back left corner a better "fool proof" idea?

Also, once duals are placed, all I do is level match them manually to my MLP before running any EQ software like ARC or Audyssey, correct?
Do I need to worry about the phase settings? And what's the "Damping" setting for?


Again, I have been spoiled (or ignorant) to the setup and forget method of Paradigm subs with PBK.....dual sub setup done correctly is something newish to me.

There is no fool proof method with multiple subs. Multiple subs take time to set up correctly most of the time...there is no way around it. If you do not want to put in the work then just go with a single sub. However I do prefer multiple subs and I put in alot of time dialing my 3 in, but it was worth it in the end.

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post #100 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Well Tom V. just posted the new numbers with the updated drivers on the Triax. Average output from 20-63hz 2m open ground is 125.39db!! Thats a 3.4db increase over the original drivers. Not to mention That is within 1.8db of the Gjallahorn and 2.6db of the Othorn in the 20-80hz region...those numbers would put it in the Top 4 most powerful subs on data-bass.

OK, OK. I give up!

- Dual F25's
- PSA Triax

Does anyone have any numbers on the Paradigm Sub 25 to compare to, just so I have an idea of how much more powerful one of these future subs would be?
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post #101 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

If you have the space, using multiple large subwoofers like the F25's is certainly a respectable choice. Looking at your photos, do you have enough room?

*
*

The screen is 133" diagonal (124" wide with border, plus L and R speakers are a little further out past sides of screen) so there is enough space between the L/C and C/R speakers to lay two F25's on their sides, if need be.
There is also room to stand up an F25 in the back left corner of the room also.
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post #102 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 10:22 AM
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I am in a similar spot as the OP as I am lookjng to replace a older Paradigm Servo 15. So lots of good choices for high output but how do they sound? Is there a winner here compared to the Paradigm?

Also surprised to not hear much love for the Seaton subs in this discussion.

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post #103 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 10:32 AM
 
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Any measurements you would find on the Sub 25 wouldn't been have made in a comparable way to the measurements that exist for these other subs. A single sealed 15 with a healthy amount of excursion, my guess is it's on the level of something like the Velodyne DD15+, maybe a bit more. I think it would probably get close to a single F25. As for dual F25s vs dual FV15HPs, if you are interested in extension, the FV15HPs would probably be better. It is using a higher excursion driver in a large ported box, that will give it a substantial advantage from 15 Hz to probably the mid 30s.
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post #104 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 10:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avtexan View Post

I am in a similar spot as the OP as I am lookjng to replace a older Paradigm Servo 15. So lots of good choices for high output but how do they sound? Is there a winner here compared to the Paradigm?

Also surprised to not hear much love for the Seaton subs in this discussion.

A Seaton +slave option would be killer. Don't know why it isn't being discussed. It wouldn't be much larger than two F25s but it would be a lot more powerful and still have very high sound quality. At $4k it is a wee bit more expensive, but still huge amount of bang for your buck right there. I guess there isn't as much interest in them because Seaton isn't interested in an SPL drag race, which is what this is basically turning into.
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post #105 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

OK, OK. I give up!

- Dual F25's
- PSA Triax

Does anyone have any numbers on the Paradigm Sub 25 to compare to, just so I have an idea of how much more powerful one of these future subs would be?

Paradigm claims 125db in room average for the Sub25 and 126db in room for the Sub2 @ 60hz. So its a safe bet that they are fairly similar in output. The Triax will have significantly more output then both. Add 6db for In room numbers on the Triax.

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The difference is more than that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

Here's a more complete description of the differences:


1. Two subwoofers have advantage of pressurizing room more evenly vs one sub.


2. Two Sub 25s have higher overall output than one Sub 2 (not by much though).


3. Sub 2 has lower distortion at any level.


4. Sub 2 has better LF extension at any level.


In other words, two Sub 25s have main advantages of being able to play a little louder and less chance of room resonances whereas Sub 2 has main advantages of more refined and deeper sound.


As for Sub 2 production date, it should start in a month (*almost* all the raw parts have arrived) but I have no idea about how any one order translates to a delivery date.


For further info please contact Paradigm... I'm only somewhat involved as far as PBK is concerned.
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post #107 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

The difference is more than that:

Ok so you just further supported my point that the sub25 does not have as much output as the Sub2 and neither come close to the Triax...Thanks! wink.gif

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post #108 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Ok so you just further supported my point that the sub25 does not have as much output as the Sub2 and neither come close to the Triax...Thanks! wink.gif

I am just trying logical compare/contrast to knock out some choices from this list. From what I am gathering, going from a single Sub 25 to a single SUB 2 will obviously be an *upgrade* but, from what I am seeing, not by much (the single major advantage is it will play lower than the Sub 25).
However, I am also gathering that going from a Sub 25 to either a) Dual F25's or b ) a single Triax will provide a more significant difference, correct?

I am trying to walk a fine line of asking something that cannot be 100% answered due to each room being different.....but on a level playing field, how much better is going from Sub 25 to SUB 2, Sub 25 to Triax, and Sub 25 to Dual F25's? Even a simplified "X% overall sound increase should be heard going from A to B" is perfect, just to give my mind something simple to grasp for expected improvement of this upgrade purchase.

Thanks for everything so far guys!
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post #109 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 12:33 PM
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Yes going from a sub25 to dual F25's will be a significant upgrad over upgrading to a sub2. However stepping up to a Triax will more then likely be a HUGE upgrade being Its going to take 2.5-3 sub2's to equal the triax from 20hz on up. For 10hz output the Triax will still have a significant advantage, how much is hard to say.

Like myself and others have already mentioned, Dual subs is the best option for smoothing the response and providing even bass coverage across multiple seats, but be prepared to put some work in. I only mentioned this because of your previous posts. If you are not willing to put in the effort then go with a single Triax, SubM, or Funk 18.3.

Again I would go with 2-3subs of whatever fits the budget, but thats jmo. I really like the sound of 2-3 F25's, but if you have your mind set on a Supersub, then you may always have that "what if " in the back of your mind. The ball is in your court, the info and opinions have been given, now its simply up to you. Good Luck! smile.gif

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Something else to keep in mind is how loud do you normally listen? If you never tapped the Sub 25's full potential, than getting something merely louder isn't going to do you any good. At that point, the only real upgrade would be simply higher quality bass. It will be hard to top a Sub 25 in that respect. One setup that would put a premium on pure sound quality would be a couple Rythmik F15HPs. The absence of ports would lessen group delay, although it will diminish its low frequency output. Another great sub for sound quality would be a Funk 18.0. Again, as opposed to the 18.3, the absence of passive radiators will lessen group delay at the cost of low frequency output, but it still has a lot of deep frequency output.
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post #111 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

A Seaton +slave option would be killer. Don't know why it isn't being discussed. It wouldn't be much larger than two F25s but it would be a lot more powerful and still have very high sound quality. At $4k it is a wee bit more expensive, but still huge amount of bang for your buck right there. I guess there isn't as much interest in them because Seaton isn't interested in an SPL drag race, which is what this is basically turning into.

Without a doubt, 4k for a Seaton master/slave combo would be WAY better value over a Sub 2. It's also available in either the SubM HP or F2 version.
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post #112 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Something else to keep in mind is how loud do you normally listen? If you never tapped the Sub 25's full potential, than getting something merely louder isn't going to do you any good.

The Anthem MRX calibrates 0dB Master Volume to be 85dB, and I usually have it at -15dB, sometimes -12dB depending on the movie. So that translates to 70-73dB as my normal listening level.
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post #113 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

The Anthem MRX calibrates 0dB Master Volume to be 85dB, and I usually have it at -15dB, sometimes -12dB depending on the movie. So that translates to 70-73dB as my normal listening level.

If that is all the louder you listen then there is no point in changing subs...all the subs we mentioned will have excellent sound quality, and at those low of levels you wont notice anything below 20hz anyway. I would say keep what you got, invest in a mic, download Rew, and maximize the sub you have. The sub25 is a great sub.

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Another great sub for sound quality would be a Funk 18.0. Again, as opposed to the 18.3, the absence of passive radiators will lessen group delay at the cost of low frequency output, but it still has a lot of deep frequency output.

I expected GD, or should I say was looking for it with my last build using PR’s. I have not noticed any along with my perception of the bass being between reg vented and sealed. I don’t know why I exactly expected GD, but I did have a bias against PR’s to be sure! I guess it boiled down to I knew nothing about them and had no experience with them. After doing much searching I now see that would have alleviated my bias alone without the personal experience aspect.

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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I expected GD, or should I say was looking for it with my last build using PR’s. I have not noticed any along with my perception of the bass being between reg vented and sealed. I don’t know why I exactly expected GD, but I did have a bias against PR’s to be sure! I guess it boiled down to I knew nothing about them and had no experience with them. After doing much searching I now see that would have alleviated my bias alone without the personal experience aspect.

Supposedly group delay isn't audible under 30 ms. At lower frequencies I would guess the audibility would be even less perceptible than that. Since passive radiators would mostly only deal with those lower frequencies of the subwoofer's frequency range, I really don't think group delay should be any kind of issue at all. The same should hold true for ports. Do they have more group delay than sealed subs, yes, but if it is beyond the sensitivity of human hearing, who cares. What might give passive radiators a bad reputation is those little over-powered mini subs, like the Velodyne minivee, Polk, and Deftech subs which uses passive radiators but are tuned so high it could actually be a problem.
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What might give passive radiators a bad reputation is those little over-powered mini subs, like the Velodyne minivee, Polk, and Deftech subs which uses passive radiators but are tuned so high it could actually be a problem.

Yeah I think that's it too. Has a Sunfire ever used a PR? seems like it might have??

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post #117 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

If that is all the louder you listen then there is no point in changing subs...all the subs we mentioned will have excellent sound quality, and at those low of levels you wont notice anything below 20hz anyway. I would say keep what you got, invest in a mic, download Rew, and maximize the sub you have. The sub25 is a great sub.

What level do you listen at? Reference (75dB right)?
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post #118 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

What level do you listen at? Reference (75dB right)?


Reference is 105db for the main speakers, 115db with the subs. I run my subs hot, so the mains usually run around 95db and the subs 110-115. When I demo the system, mains will go up to 105-110db, subs 130db for short bursts. That is really obnoxious volume levels.

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post #119 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Reference is 105db for the main speakers, 115db with the subs. I run my subs hot, so the mains usually run around 95db and the subs 110-115. When I demo the system, mains will go up to 105-110db, subs 130db for short bursts. That is really obnoxious volume levels.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but when a sound system is first calibrated, SPL levels are all matched to 75dB using an accurate SPL meter (which corresponds to the 0db Master Volume number on the AVR). During playback, if one was listening at 0dB Master Volume, the movie is then playing back at reference level (105dB peaks for mains, 115dB peaks for sub). Correct?

Isn't that the 101 of matching levels on a new setup/AVR, to ensure that if one has the volume at 0dB MV on the AVR they are in fact listening at reference level during movie playback?
That is what I meant by listening at 70-73dB (which would correspond to 100-103dB for mains, 110-113dB for sub).
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post #120 of 168 Old 09-28-2013, 08:06 PM
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When you utilize bass management, the bass is re-routed to the subwoofer. So while the lfe channel is spec'd up to 115, the subwoofer can get more adding in the other channels. For example the movie Skyfall expects your bass-managed system to put out a continuous 121.4dB at one point if you are listening at reference.

Personally in your space I would go with dual F25's or the subm m/s pair. If you set them up both up front, just use a y-splitter and gain match if F25's. Even just on each side of the center laying down, you should be at 25% room width and therefore cancel those modes. Bass will be a bit smoother and non-directional.

If you are spending this kind of $, whats a hundred bucks+ for measuring gear and a some time spent to get the most out of your system? TIme domain and frequency response are proven to have high correlation with sound quality, and our ears are terrible measurement devices. Then if you want to move a sub to the back for possible better results, add delay, eq... you are prepared.

If I had to go with one, I would get the Triax at its current deal. Tough to beat, but adding another one later may be too much $, and I just can't settle with a single sub myself.

You can't wrong with the sub choices you have been given. Going from a single to 3-4 15" drivers will be worth the change IMO. Good luck!smile.gif
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