Thinking of upgrading my Paradigm Sub 25.....suggestions? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Can a "single sub" EQ software like ARC still have good results with dual subs or will it not account for the two interacting together correctly like Audyssey XT32 does?

Sans XT32, you'd probably want probably want to use something like MiniDSP to optimize the results with dual subs.
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post #92 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 07:29 PM
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F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
LV12R: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
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FV15HP: +9db
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post #93 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Lol....well that didn't take long to remove the Triax from you list. Honestly I think most would agree other then shadyj that the Triax will have more output then all three subs you have listed.

It's in the background as an option.....but with no definite time table on first order shipments, I don't want to sit around too long, especially given also having to wait after release for a good 3rd party review. Not saying you are wrong or that it isn't everything it says it is, but like to buy a proven product and not be one of the first to own something new. Never had good luck in such situations. lol
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post #94 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

It's in the background as an option.....but with no definite time table on first order shipments, I don't want to sit around too long, especially given also having to wait after release for a good 3rd party review. Not saying you are wrong or that it isn't everything it says it is, but like to buy a proven product and not be one of the first to own something new. Never had good luck in such situations. lol

That's too bad, you could still get in on the pre-order pricing before it goes up $500+ in the next week or so.

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post #95 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jbr11615 View Post

Lol....well that didn't take long to remove the Triax from you list. Honestly I think most would agree other then shadyj that the Triax will have more output then all three subs you have listed.



Triax 20-31hz = 116.4db, 40-63hz = 127.1db

Sub2 20-31hz = 109.8db, 40-63hz = 119.8db

Rythmik FV15HP 20-31hz = 111.8db 1 port, 112.7db 2port. 40-63hz = 117.1db 1 port, 119.1db 2 port

Funk 18.0 20-31hz = 109.1db(240 volt), 40-63hz = 120.5db(240volt)

PSA Cea2010 2m ground plane numbers were spot on with Ricci's for the XV15, so its a 99% percent gurantee its going to meet or exceed those numbers with the upgraded drivers. It would take 2 of each sub mentioned to equal the Triax and they would still fall short except dual FV15HP in the 20-31hz range. Bottom line its a ****ing beast!
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post #96 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

That's too bad, you could still get in on the pre-order pricing before it goes up $500+ in the next week or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Triax 20-31hz = 116.4db, 40-63hz = 127.1db

Sub2 20-31hz = 109.8db, 40-63hz = 119.8db

Rythmik FV15HP 20-31hz = 111.8db 1 port, 112.7db 2port. 40-63hz = 117.1db 1 port, 119.1db 2 port

Funk 18.0 20-31hz = 109.1db(240 volt), 40-63hz = 120.5db(240volt)

PSA Cea2010 2m ground plane numbers were spot on with Ricci's for the XV15, so its a 99% percent gurantee its going to meet or exceed those numbers with the upgraded drivers. It would take 2 of each sub mentioned to equal the Triax and they would still fall short except dual FV15HP in the 20-31hz range. Bottom line its a ****ing beast!

Alright, Alright, the Triax is back on the list!
Jeez guys, twist my arms with those awesome stats some more why don't ya!

Only problem is I don't have the cash for a full down payment right now, so I wouldn't be able to get the introductory price :-(
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post #97 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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As a subwoofer graph newbie (other than simple frequency vs. dB), I am having a hard time figuring out the measurement graphs for the Triax. What is the difference between the "Program Button In" and "Program Button Out" graphs? What are the three colored lines representing?
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post #98 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Does the Triax go down as low as the Sub 2?

Its +/-3db down to 15hz with single digit extension capability in room, so yes it will go everybit as low as the sub2 with much more output. Also look at the other measurements Ricci took of the Sub2. It starts to compress at 105db sweep because of the 12db eq boost centered around 14-15hz. On a 115db sweep the Sub2 shut down.
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post #99 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Its +/-3db down to 15hz with single digit extension capability in room, so yes it will go everybit as low as the sub2 with much more output. Also look at the other measurements Ricci took of the Sub2. It starts to compress at 105db sweep because of the 12db eq boost centered around 14-15hz. On a 115db sweep the Sub2 shut down.

Dang you, responded while I was mid edit on that post. lol

So I have decided it is between the Triax and the SUB 2.......I am pretty sure I know what you guys are going to recommend. Any other single sub setups to consider?
(I really do not want to deal with a dual sub setup......laziness I know).
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post #100 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post


Alright, Alright, the Triax is back on the list!
Jeez guys, twist my arms with those awesome stats some more why don't ya!

Only problem is I don't have the cash for a full down payment right now, so I wouldn't be able to get the introductory price :-(

That makes sense! I guess it’s going to have to come down to lie, steal and cheat to get one of these Triax’s. I might be asking to be bailed out of the clink though. rolleyes.gif

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post #101 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Dang you, responded while I was mid edit on that post. lol

So I have decided it is between the Triax and the SUB 2.......I am pretty sure I know what you guys are going to recommend. Any other single sub setups to consider?
(I really do not want to deal with a dual sub setup......laziness I know).

The Submersive HP+ and Funk 18.3 are other great options to consider well before the Sub2.
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post #102 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know if measurements exist for the Paradigm Sub 25 so I have a personal reference to compare the measurements of the new subs I am looking at to? Tried faithful Google, no luck.
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post #103 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 10:15 PM
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Dual subs don't have to be harder than a single sub to setup. They just take more work to perfect, but right off the bat, if you just want to set it up and forget about it, they could easily give you a better response than a single sub right away. As opposed to a single sub, they take less work to get a good, but more work to get perfect. If you want the best sound right away and don't want to tweak stuff, duals actually make more sense.
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post #104 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Dual subs don't have to be harder than a single sub to setup. They just take more work to perfect, but right off the bat, if you just want to set it up and forget about it, they could easily give you a better response than a single sub right away. As opposed to a single sub, they take less work to get a good, but more work to get perfect. If you want the best sound right away and don't want to tweak stuff, duals actually make more sense.

HAHAHA ... I see where this is going, you're thinking "crap now he's thinking about getting a Triax so I'll stop recommending the Funk and start pushing a dual FV15HP setup".....LOL

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post #105 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Lol....well that didn't take long to remove the Triax from you list. Honestly I think most would agree other then shadyj that the Triax will have more output then all three subs you have listed.

I have said the Triax would likely have the most output overall, except possibly around the tuning points of dual FV15HPs or the 18.3. However, I think sound quality may be a different story.
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post #106 of 177 Old 09-27-2013, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

HAHAHA ... I see where this is going, you're thinking "crap now he's thinking about getting a Triax so I'll stop recommending the Funk and start pushing a dual FV15HP setup".....LOL

Classic shadyj just classic...lol smile.gif

Tell me am I wrong about dual subs?
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post #107 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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If I am going to consider dual subs as an option still, can someone help me at least narrow it down to one choice between the FV15HP and F25? In the overall grand scheme of movie listening only, which dual combination will out-do the other?
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post #108 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 08:23 AM
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The FV15HP will have a slight advantage around port tune, the F25 should extend lower in your room with around 4db more output above 40hz. I personally would go with the F25's, but either will be great.
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post #109 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The FV15HP will have a slight advantage around port tune, the F25 should extend lower in your room with around 4db more output above 40hz. I personally would go with the F25's, but either will be great.

I love the idea of dual F25's.....but without having (or wanting) to get something like REW and messing around with placement for a whole day, is there a surefire "quick" setup method for dual subs? Besides the two spots available at the front of the room (between Left/Center and Right/Center), I also have a spot in the back left corner of the room. Would it just be fool-proof to place both in the front of the room, opposite sides of the center speaker, or is one in the front right corner and one in the back left corner a better "fool proof" idea?

Also, once duals are placed, all I do is level match them manually to my MLP before running any EQ software like ARC or Audyssey, correct?
Do I need to worry about the phase settings? And what's the "Damping" setting for?


Again, I have been spoiled (or ignorant) to the setup and forget method of Paradigm subs with PBK.....dual sub setup done correctly is something newish to me.
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post #110 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 08:41 AM
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If you have the space, using multiple large subwoofers like the F25's is certainly a respectable choice. Looking at your photos, do you have enough room?

*
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post #111 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 08:48 AM
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Well Tom V. just posted the new numbers with the updated drivers on the Triax. Average output from 20-63hz 2m open ground is 125.39db!! Thats a 3.4db increase over the original drivers. Not to mention That is within 1.8db of the Gjallahorn and 2.6db of the Othorn in the 20-80hz region...those numbers would put it in the Top 4 most powerful subs on data-bass.
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post #112 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I love the idea of dual F25's.....but without having (or wanting) to get something like REW and messing around with placement for a whole day, is there a surefire "quick" setup method for dual subs? Besides the two spots available at the front of the room (between Left/Center and Right/Center), I also have a spot in the back left corner of the room. Would it just be fool-proof to place both in the front of the room, opposite sides of the center speaker, or is one in the front right corner and one in the back left corner a better "fool proof" idea?

Also, once duals are placed, all I do is level match them manually to my MLP before running any EQ software like ARC or Audyssey, correct?
Do I need to worry about the phase settings? And what's the "Damping" setting for?


Again, I have been spoiled (or ignorant) to the setup and forget method of Paradigm subs with PBK.....dual sub setup done correctly is something newish to me.

There is no fool proof method with multiple subs. Multiple subs take time to set up correctly most of the time...there is no way around it. If you do not want to put in the work then just go with a single sub. However I do prefer multiple subs and I put in alot of time dialing my 3 in, but it was worth it in the end.
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post #113 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Well Tom V. just posted the new numbers with the updated drivers on the Triax. Average output from 20-63hz 2m open ground is 125.39db!! Thats a 3.4db increase over the original drivers. Not to mention That is within 1.8db of the Gjallahorn and 2.6db of the Othorn in the 20-80hz region...those numbers would put it in the Top 4 most powerful subs on data-bass.

OK, OK. I give up!

- Dual F25's
- PSA Triax

Does anyone have any numbers on the Paradigm Sub 25 to compare to, just so I have an idea of how much more powerful one of these future subs would be?
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post #114 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

If you have the space, using multiple large subwoofers like the F25's is certainly a respectable choice. Looking at your photos, do you have enough room?

*
*

The screen is 133" diagonal (124" wide with border, plus L and R speakers are a little further out past sides of screen) so there is enough space between the L/C and C/R speakers to lay two F25's on their sides, if need be.
There is also room to stand up an F25 in the back left corner of the room also.
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post #115 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 09:22 AM
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I am in a similar spot as the OP as I am lookjng to replace a older Paradigm Servo 15. So lots of good choices for high output but how do they sound? Is there a winner here compared to the Paradigm?

Also surprised to not hear much love for the Seaton subs in this discussion.
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post #116 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 09:32 AM
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Any measurements you would find on the Sub 25 wouldn't been have made in a comparable way to the measurements that exist for these other subs. A single sealed 15 with a healthy amount of excursion, my guess is it's on the level of something like the Velodyne DD15+, maybe a bit more. I think it would probably get close to a single F25. As for dual F25s vs dual FV15HPs, if you are interested in extension, the FV15HPs would probably be better. It is using a higher excursion driver in a large ported box, that will give it a substantial advantage from 15 Hz to probably the mid 30s.
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post #117 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avtexan View Post

I am in a similar spot as the OP as I am lookjng to replace a older Paradigm Servo 15. So lots of good choices for high output but how do they sound? Is there a winner here compared to the Paradigm?

Also surprised to not hear much love for the Seaton subs in this discussion.

A Seaton +slave option would be killer. Don't know why it isn't being discussed. It wouldn't be much larger than two F25s but it would be a lot more powerful and still have very high sound quality. At $4k it is a wee bit more expensive, but still huge amount of bang for your buck right there. I guess there isn't as much interest in them because Seaton isn't interested in an SPL drag race, which is what this is basically turning into.
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post #118 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

OK, OK. I give up!

- Dual F25's
- PSA Triax

Does anyone have any numbers on the Paradigm Sub 25 to compare to, just so I have an idea of how much more powerful one of these future subs would be?

Paradigm claims 125db in room average for the Sub25 and 126db in room for the Sub2 @ 60hz. So its a safe bet that they are fairly similar in output. The Triax will have significantly more output then both. Add 6db for In room numbers on the Triax.
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post #119 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 09:58 AM
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The difference is more than that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

Here's a more complete description of the differences:


1. Two subwoofers have advantage of pressurizing room more evenly vs one sub.


2. Two Sub 25s have higher overall output than one Sub 2 (not by much though).


3. Sub 2 has lower distortion at any level.


4. Sub 2 has better LF extension at any level.


In other words, two Sub 25s have main advantages of being able to play a little louder and less chance of room resonances whereas Sub 2 has main advantages of more refined and deeper sound.


As for Sub 2 production date, it should start in a month (*almost* all the raw parts have arrived) but I have no idea about how any one order translates to a delivery date.


For further info please contact Paradigm... I'm only somewhat involved as far as PBK is concerned.
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post #120 of 177 Old 09-28-2013, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

The difference is more than that:

Ok so you just further supported my point that the sub25 does not have as much output as the Sub2 and neither come close to the Triax...Thanks! wink.gif
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