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post #91 of 161 Old 10-29-2013, 05:42 AM
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For sub users with carpet over concrete (or any well-supported floor), spikes are championed for doing the exact opposite of what Ed states the SVS feet (Sorbothane) were designed to do. Ed suggests his feet "isolate" the sub from the floor. What you actually want feet to do (and spikes do it very well, though, sorry, I can't "prove" it here, so feel free to dismiss this) is "couple" the enclosure to the floor, so that it doesn't move backwards in reaction to the cone moving forward. If the box is an immovable object, the driver's output should be, all things being equal, closer to the signal, with less (in audiophile terms...don't gag yet) smearing, having instead more resolution. If this sounds farfetched to you, it's a commonly understood phenomenon in photography, hence the tripod and the cable shutter-release. No fairy dust there.
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post #92 of 161 Old 10-29-2013, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

For sub users with carpet over concrete spikes are championed ... "couple" the enclosure to the floor, so that it doesn't move backwards in reaction to the cone moving forward. If the box is an immovable object, the driver's output should be, all things being equal, closer to the signal.
Spikes are useful to keep a sub from moving on carpet, and one could call that better coupling. However, the term 'coupling' has been corrupted by some to infer that there's such a thing as mechanical coupling between a sub and the floor that results in better output and/or response, which is acoustic voodoo. Keeping the sub from moving does increase its acoustical output slightly, as energy is not wasted moving the sub about, but it's barely measurable, let alone audible. The idea that a speaker than can't move will be more accurate has theoretical validity as well, since a speaker that can move a by a significant portion of a wavelength would introduce phase issues. But sub bass wavelengths are far too long for that to occur.
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post #93 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 07:09 PM
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I paid $50 exactly for my Auralex Gramma. It did reduce some rattle in my room. If these do the same, and look nicer, why the big fuss? Tons of owners have placed their speakers and/or subs on Grammas and have noticed improvements.

Maybe some have a gripe with the wording of the copy on the SVS press release, but it seems the underlying product should not be so controversial. Also, at $50 a set, it is hardly the same as thousands for a crazy speaker cable etc., so I think accusing them of snake oil or whatever is a bit harsh.

They also claim their T-shirt is stylish and comfortable. I will need scientific proof of those claims, please!

https://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/subwoofer-accessories/svs-t-shirt

I have a front firing sub, not one with dual opposed drivers, FWIW.

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post #94 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 07:23 PM
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When I see your comment about having a front firing sub it made me wonder: is there a difference in how a down firing vs front firing sub affects these devices (both foam/board thingies like Auralex and these suspension feet from SVS), at least in environments that these devices seem to help in?

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post #95 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CV580DRVR View Post

Folks!

Several weeks, and many, many hours of listening into the whole situation...with my young Son "Conducting" Cello at the Dinner Table.....I profess that the SVS Soundpath Isolation feet have been a Wonderful Success in our home. Built up, Suspended flooring, and a House FULL of rattley bits.....

SVS pulled the plug on my "Wack-a-Rattle" game, and I can pay attention to the music, and NOT some rattling object.

Success!!!!

CV

Be careful, someone is likely to tell you that you are not actually experiencing the improvement you now perceive. Better get your data ready biggrin.gif

In all seriousness, glad to hear you are happy.
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post #96 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

Maybe some have a gripe with the wording of the copy on the SVS press release
If you see no issues with their claims then this site should be right up your alley, as their claims are just as valid:
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/acoustic-art/acoustic-art-system/

And they have plenty of positive reviews too. rolleyes.gif

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post #97 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 07:38 PM
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For who ever is using the gramma for a front firing sub. Does it actually help in any way?
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post #98 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 07:38 PM
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$55,000/11’pr. Speaker Cable; $33,000/2.5m pr. Interconnect eek.gif lol

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post #99 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 08:58 PM
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Come on, Steve, it's worth it to someone whose golden ears are sure of their "investment" in pure audio nirvana as pictured by the "artist" and all the salesmen in between smile.gif

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post #100 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 09:11 PM
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lovin> and all the salesmen in between smile.gif

Yeah I want my commision on those, I'll say pretty much anything for my reg 12% smile.gif

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post #101 of 161 Old 10-30-2013, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If you see no issues with their claims then this site should be right up your alley, as their claims are just as valid:
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/acoustic-art/acoustic-art-system/

And they have plenty of positive reviews too. rolleyes.gif

Um, they claim that the pads reduce vibrations from the sub to the floor. Your might argue that they might not be needed, because most vibrations are through the air, but I hardly think that the claims they make are snake oil. Clearly in some cases subs do vibrate and floors do shake from the coupling, that is why a company like Auralex exists. I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Now, if the pads failed to reduce vibrations to the floor, then I would have an issue.
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For who ever is using the gramma for a front firing sub. Does it actually help in any way?

I noticed less rattling of the pictures on my wall and some glasses over in my bar area. It is not gone totally gone, especially on bass heavy movies at loud volumes. Also, my wife gets woken up less often...priceless!

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post #102 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

Um, they claim that the pads reduce vibrations from the sub to the floor. Your might argue that they might not be needed, because most vibrations are through the air, but I hardly think that the claims they make are snake oil. Clearly in some cases subs do vibrate and floors do shake from the coupling, that is why a company like Auralex exists.
A sub that transmits low frequency vibrations directly to the floor is defective; if it is not defective the cabinet panels do not vibrate within the subwoofer pass band. The only vibration that a sub can mechanically impart to the floor is if it's 'dancing', which can be cured with a number of very inexpensive devices. Auralex exists for the same reason that every product exists: to make a profit for the manufacturer.
As for the SVS product, to claim it has 'soundproofing' qualities verges on magic.

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post #103 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

A sub that transmits low frequency vibrations directly to the floor is defective; if it is not defective the cabinet panels do not vibrate within the subwoofer pass band. The only vibration that a sub can mechanically impart to the floor is if it's 'dancing', which can be cured with a number of very inexpensive devices. Auralex exists for the same reason that every product exists: to make a profit for the manufacturer.
As for the SVS product, to claim it has 'soundproofing' qualities verges on magic.

He might have one of those shaker subs Bill.. you know the ones that are louder/spl than the bass/LFE itself. smile.gif

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post #104 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 06:29 AM
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Another thing that has been done to keep a sub enclosure from moving (if that's what you are trying to achieve) is put a bag of sand (it's cheaper than lead shot) on top of the sub. The sand might absorb some enclosure wall resonance as well. If the box is built right it will be out-of-band resonance, but what the hell, it doesn't cost extra! About $7 for a hundred pound bag of Silica #60 at the building supply yard by my house.
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

Another thing that has been done to keep a sub enclosure from moving (if that's what you are trying to achieve) is put a bag of sand (it's cheaper than lead shot) on top of the sub. The sand might absorb some enclosure wall resonance as well. If the box is built right it will be out-of-band resonance, but what the hell, it doesn't cost extra! About $7 for a hundred pound bag of Silica #60 at the building supply yard by my house.

Or sit the sub on top of it....cheaper solution than the feet or the pad things. smile.gif Maybe not so good aesthetically.....

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post #106 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 08:33 AM
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The post WWII companies who made very large-enclosure loudspeakers built empty chambers into some of their models, the chambers designed to be filled with sand after the speakers had been delivered and positioned in the customers home. The sand was to, yes, absorb resonances created by large unbraced enclosure walls.
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post #107 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 08:42 AM
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The post WWII companies who made very large-enclosure loudspeakers built empty chambers into some of their models, the chambers designed to be filled with sand after the speakers had been delivered and positioned in the customers home.
That was mainly done by Wharfedale. It worked, but no better than using internal bracing that accomplishes the same result with a cab less than half the weight. A secondary advantage to that style of construction is eliminating cab dancing, via sheer mass, but a better way of accomplishing that is via dual opposed drivers, which makes Newton's Second Law work for you rather than against you.

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post #108 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 08:57 AM
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That was mainly done by Wharfedale. It worked, but no better than using internal bracing that accomplishes the same result with a cab less than half the weight. A secondary advantage to that style of construction is eliminating cab dancing, via sheer mass, but a better way of accomplishing that is via dual opposed drivers, which makes Newton's Second Law work for you rather than against you.

I must say, the most successful of the dual-opposed driver subwoofer companies is Seaton, and his enclosures do not appear to me to have very good bracing, the kind of bracing Bill keeps telling everyone about.
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post #109 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 09:04 AM
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You're delusional.

It seems science is witchcraft.
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post #110 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 09:10 AM
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I must say, the most successful of the dual-opposed driver subwoofer companies is Seaton, and his enclosures do not appear to me to have very good bracing, the kind of bracing Bill keeps telling everyone about.


You opened one up? Or do you have pics?

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post #111 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 09:19 AM
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You opened one up? Or do you have pics?

There are pictures of a Submersive being assembled on a couple of sites. Between the two baffles to which the drivers are mounted are two full panels, parallel to the baffles, with a big hole cut-out of the center of each. That's it.
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post #112 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 09:23 AM
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So what's insufficient about those panels bracing the interior of the cabinet? Links or pics please.

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post #113 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

I must say, the most successful of the dual-opposed driver subwoofer companies is Seaton, and his enclosures do not appear to me to have very good bracing, the kind of bracing Bill keeps telling everyone about.
Bracing and dual opposed serve different purposes. Bracing keeps panels from vibrating. Dual opposed keeps the sub from moving about. What Seaton uses for bracing I can't say, I've never looked inside of one. This video, albeit from an electric bass cab company, explains how bracing works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJy3TscsL-U&feature=player_embedded

From an engineering standpoint a single brace connecting the middles of two opposing panels has the same stiffening effect as doubling the panel thickness.

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post #114 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

A sub that transmits low frequency vibrations directly to the floor is defective; if it is not defective the cabinet panels do not vibrate within the subwoofer pass band. The only vibration that a sub can mechanically impart to the floor is if it's 'dancing', which can be cured with a number of very inexpensive devices. Auralex exists for the same reason that every product exists: to make a profit for the manufacturer.
As for the SVS product, to claim it has 'soundproofing' qualities verges on magic.

Wait, so any speaker or sub that has cabinet resonance is defective? Is that what you are saying? I guess we all need Magico stuff made out of aluminum. Also, the amount of skepticism is verging on paranoia.

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He might have one of those shaker subs Bill.. you know the ones that are louder/spl than the bass/LFE itself. smile.gif

PB10. A quality sub. Look back at mark Seatons post regarding front firing subs moving about and vibrating. Sarcasm is not appreciated. If you don't have something intelligent to say, just keep your mouth shut.

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Another thing that has been done to keep a sub enclosure from moving (if that's what you are trying to achieve) is put a bag of sand (it's cheaper than lead shot) on top of the sub. The sand might absorb some enclosure wall resonance as well. If the box is built right it will be out-of-band resonance, but what the hell, it doesn't cost extra! About $7 for a hundred pound bag of Silica #60 at the building supply yard by my house.

Really, a bag of sand on my sub. That is much better than some cheap rubber feet. Genius!

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Wait, so any speaker or sub that has cabinet resonance is defective? Is that what you are saying?

He's trying to sway the laws of physics with his opinion.
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post #116 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 10:22 AM
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PB10. A quality sub. Look back at mark Seatons post regarding front firing subs moving about and vibrating. Sarcasm is not appreciated. If you don't have something intelligent to say, just keep your mouth shut.

LOL I don’t care what Mark says or you for that matter. You might not, but I see much humor with this thread/topic. We’re talking about such a low level of buffer and induced vibration that I consider anything you have to say about the issue as total misguided ignorance. So if you don’t change your stance, I would appreciate you keep your mouth shut regarding the matter. rolleyes.gif

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post #117 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 10:40 AM
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LOL I don’t care what Mark says or you for that matter. You might not, but I see much humor with this thread/topic. We’re talking about such a low level of buffer and induced vibration that I consider anything you have to say about the issue as total misguided ignorance. So if you don’t change your stance, I would appreciate you keep your mouth shut regarding the matter. rolleyes.gif

I guess you are entitled to your on opinion, but I suggest you go back and read Ed and Mark's posts. I trust their expertise a lot more than yours. Plus, as I previously posted, there was an easily observable change when I put my sub on a Gramma. So why should I change my stance? (Again, I am assuming the SVS feet are equivalent to a gramma. Obviously, I have not actually tried out their new product yet.)

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post #118 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

I must say, the most successful of the dual-opposed driver subwoofer companies is Seaton, and his enclosures do not appear to me to have very good bracing, the kind of bracing Bill keeps telling everyone about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

There are pictures of a Submersive being assembled on a couple of sites. Between the two baffles to which the drivers are mounted are two full panels, parallel to the baffles, with a big hole cut-out of the center of each. That's it.

If you are going to call out a company for not having very good bracing, you really should give your reasons why and how it should be better. Seaton uses a similar bracing scheme as the DIYsoundgroup flat pack and almost every other DO sub build I've seen.
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So what's insufficient about those panels bracing the interior of the cabinet? Links or pics please.

Here is the link to pics.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/submersive-enclosures-in-the-making-behind-the-scenes-5999693

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post #119 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

I guess you are entitled to your on opinion, but I suggest you go back and read Ed and Mark's posts. I trust their expertise a lot more than yours. Plus, as I previously posted, there was an easily observable change when I put my sub on a Gramma. So why should I change my stance? (Again, I am assuming the SVS feet are equivalent to a gramma. Obviously, I have not actually tried out their new product yet.)

If you knew me, you would know I’m not a SVS basher, but I’m not a mickey mouse blind follower either. (Not saying you are)When it comes to isolation feet system, I say bs when challenged or asked about them. Ed is being Ed, he likes a few other things I don’t like also.. no biggie. I also consider him as a go-to guy, but not when it comes to this. I could hang any SVS option I’ve had in the past from the ceiling and it would make such a negligible affect (if any) that I wouldn’t pay for the rope to do so. Anyway in my case I like the sp effect even if it did magically help..

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post #120 of 161 Old 10-31-2013, 12:23 PM
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Wait, so any speaker or sub that has cabinet resonance is defective? Is that what you are saying?
Did you read my post, or are you only interested in arguing for its own sake?
Quote:
if it is not defective the cabinet panels do not vibrate within the subwoofer pass band.
The panel resonances of a well made sub lie above 500Hz. 500Hz and higher vibrations do not cause floors to resonate. Vibrations below 100Hz may. Their source? The acoustical output of the speaker.

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