New SVS Isolation feet - Page 8 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Montucky View Post
You guys crack me up with all of the scientific debate. I just put some on a PB-1000. I played some hard hitting action scenes on a couple movies, both with and without. While I won't say there was a difference in the sound quality, there WAS a difference in how the floor below was effected. I went downstairs to hear the difference, and what was once rattling things a bit, the vibrations downstairs became practically non-existent with the feet on. So it seems to me that with your house vibrating a bit less, that it could theoretically be less distracting from the bass output itself, and thus cleaner? Not debating the sound quality itself though; but rather the acceptance factor of your neighbors downstairs. Depending on the construction of the place, these feet CAN make a difference in that regard. With the feet, you could hardly even tell anything was going on upstairs.

I'm sure you could do some DIY treatments that would be far cheaper and every bit as, if not more effective. BUT, I personally liked the feet since they are a good looking, clean and easy solution. Whether or not they're worth $50 is up to you. I'd be much more likely to recommend them if they were half the price. I still liked them either way though. Can be worth it when on hardwood or upper floors that have little to no vibration isolating properties underneath the sub-flooring.
That's just anecdotal. Hard data has to be the result of a double-blind test ;-).
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post #212 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 01:54 PM
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That's just anecdotal. Hard data has to be the result of a double-blind test ;-).
Haha. Anecdotal indeed. However, there were two other people working on the house downstairs doing some carpentry, and I had them listen (from downstairs) and tell me if they could tell a difference between test A (with the feet) and test B (without). They had no idea that I did anything differently, and they were definitely not sound guys. Both of them told me that the test (which happened to have the feet) produced far less vibration, practically none, and they could barely tell I had anything playing upstairs.

While not exactly scientific, that was blind enough for me.
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post #213 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 02:12 PM
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As a research engineer I have learned the hard way that sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and do the experiment.
I did, three years ago, after which I posted this on my forum:

Next to high priced cables and power conditioners isolation pads and spikes are the biggest scams in audio. The following quoted claims are taken straight from the websites of manufacturers of these devices.

The Isolation Claim: ‘Its purpose is to prevent sound from transmitting through your subwoofer to surrounding surfaces. Subwoofers create big vibrations (low frequencies) that you can feel in the floor and in objects placed nearby. When the source of the vibrations is coupled directly to the floor it causes these objects to vibrate or resonate…’

The Truth: The source of these vibrations is the movement of the driver cone creating pressure waves in the room. The claim would only be true if you coupled the driver cone to the floor. If the cabinet panels vibrate enough to cause the floor to vibrate the speaker is defective.

The Decoupling Claim: ‘Isolators for your speakers…will decouple your speakers from the surface they rest upon, resulting in a more pure, accurate tone. Low frequencies will be projected and will no longer lack the definition you desire. Mid and high frequencies will be crisp and intelligible. Rattles and resonances will be a thing of the past.’

The Spike Claim: ‘By rigidly coupling a loudspeaker enclosure to a floor by means of a spiking system, it is possible to dramatically improve clarity, stereo imaging and bass response. This is very apparent with subwoofer systems.’

The Quandary: These sources claim the same benefits from coupling and from decoupling. Who’s telling the truth?

The Truth: Both are lying. Isolation and coupling makes no difference. To test this I measured the response of my THT and my David with the test mic in the room, in the next room, and in the room below, with the cabinet sitting on the carpeted floor, on four inches of high density acoustic foam, on rubber feet and on spikes. I’d post the measured results for each set of comparisons, but there would be no point. In each case the measured responses of the four options were identical.
Note that this was on a carpeted floor. There may be some slight benefits to isolation devices or rubber feet on a bare floor, or on a bare shelf or stand. But you never want a bare floor, it’s an acoustical nightmare. If you only have area rugs in your listening room stick a piece of felt carpet padding, a carpet scrap or rubber feet under your speaker. If you're using bookshelves on a bare shelf or stand small rubber feet or felt pads are all you need to prevent spurious vibrations. Spikes do have one use, that's with carpeted floors. If your speakers move on carpet at high volume spikes will give them better grip, helping to stop movement.

The Endorser Claim: ‘I tried them and they work, I know what I’m hearing!’

The Truth: The first thing you learn in an acoustical engineering course is that you don’t know what you’re hearing. If you did you’d be able to listen to a speaker, take pencil and graph paper in hand, and draw a frequency response chart, THD chart and waterfall plot, all with 1/24 octave resolution and 1/10dB accuracy. Our ears just aren’t that good, not by a very wide margin. But our imagination works very well, and that clouds our audio judgment, leading to placebo effect. In short, if you think something will make a difference in the sound, it will.


One item that's always missing from both manufacturers and owners claims are measured results, before and after. We often say 'If you don't have a picture it didn't happen'. In this case that picture is measured in-room response. When virtually anyone who's really serious about their sound has REW or the like that's not a lot to ask for.

Those who make isolation devices are no different than the cable crooks or any of a hundred other outfits who are interested in one thing and one thing only: Your money. You have it, they want it. And like all snake oil merchants they know the less you understand about how audio actually works, the better a mark you are. Caveat Emptor.

For an in depth examination of why we really don’t know what we’re hearing check out this video:


If SVS had measured data to back up their claims it would be posted on their site. The same applies to Auralex. Anyone with REW or any other measurement gear could do so as well.
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post #214 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 06:35 PM
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Totally irrelevant point you attempted to make in an apples to oranges scenario. Would you rather refer to the 40 out of 42 reviews 4 and 5 star reviews at svsound.com? The lone 2 star review even stating the score had nothing to do with the product.
I am not debating whether or not the rubber feet do anything. I am saying that Amazon reviews are hardly a source to prove anything, as some of the worst performing subs/mid-bass modules get stellar reviews, including the Bose Acoustimass.
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post #215 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by morrischestnut60 View Post
Can one only be happy with a high end sub? I miss the relationship here. As for the isolation feet, I am not sure what the big deal is. Don't people feel the same about isolation platforms. To each his own. No one can claim to know every possible scenario and environment where these may actually provide some benefit.
The point is that someone claimed that, since the feet have high reviews on amazon, they must work. I am not debating whether they work or not, just stating that a product with good reviews on Amazon is hardly proof of a good performing product, as evidence by thousands of stellar reviews on horrible performing subs/mid-bass modules, and even the Bose module.

Anyways, that's the relationship...good reviews on Amazon doesn't hold much weight.
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post #216 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 06:48 PM
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See Montucky, you didn't really hear a difference; you just think you did, 'cause you wanted there to be one. The workers downstairs? They must have sensed that you wanted them to hear a difference, and since you're the boss they said they did so's not to rile you. That explains that anecdotal tall tale. Anybody else here drunk the kool-aid, or should I say snake oil?
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post #217 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 06:53 PM
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Halarious, the last subs Ive bought came with rubber feet & spikes! Sounds like a monster move!
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post #218 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 07:05 PM
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Halarious, the last subs Ive bought came with rubber feet & spikes! Sounds like a monster move!
Both serve their purpose, to keep the sub from moving on a hard and carpeted floor respectively. But that's all they'll do.
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post #219 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 07:09 PM
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Both serve their purpose, to keep the sub from moving on a hard and carpeted floor respectively. But that's all they'll do.
Im aware, like I said svs charging 50.00 for these is a Joke! When they should be included...
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post #220 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 07:44 PM
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Ever since The Mod Squad introduced their "Tip Toe", and others starting offering similar products, all of them being referred to alternately as either a coupler or an isolator, I took that as evidence that somebody, or perhaps everybody, didn't know what they were talking about. They could be, at most, one OR the other, as they are opposites. Then a friend who was (R.I.P. Brooks) a Hi-Fi dealer (it amuses me that there are both Hi-Fi and drug dealers, both available to help the addict chase his high) explained to me that spikes/Tip Toes, etc. were a mechanical diode; energy traveled through them in one direction only: from the side attached to the speaker (especially from the flat face of the Tip Toe), down through the device, and then out of it's pointed tip into the surface below. And that the small point of the spike/Tip Toe was hard for energy to get into, but was an excellent energy evacuator. And another analogy involving an impedance match between two objects. I believe those two theories were the rational for the Tip Toes/spikes being both a coupler and an isolator. I didn't and don't know about that, but looking at it from a simple common sense perspective, it seemed obvious to me that a spike's value was in keeping the speaker cabinet from rocking backwards in response to it's driver moving forward. Newton's Law of for every action etc. As for rubber feet on a sub.....rubber is not a very linear filter, to the best of my limited knowledge. I use Symposium Acoustics Roller Blocks instead---even more expensive!

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post #221 of 240 Old 05-15-2015, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
See Montucky, you didn't really hear a difference; you just think you did, 'cause you wanted there to be one. The workers downstairs? They must have sensed that you wanted them to hear a difference, and since you're the boss they said they did so's not to rile you. That explains that anecdotal tall tale. Anybody else here drunk the kool-aid, or should I say snake oil?
Umm, nope. (A) I wasn't their boss, and (B) I purposefully did the second test WITHOUT the feet. They had no clue I had done anything differently, yet both of them happened to tell me that the 1st test was better with less vibration downstairs. 2 out of 2 saying the test with the isolation feet sounded better without having a clue I did anything differently? How is this snake oil? Perhaps for many, these feet wont make a lick of difference, but in certain environments, such as wood on an upper floor, they sure can. Much of it has to do with the construction I'm sure, as well as the furnishings and other things. In this test environment, the furniture, rugs, and everything else hadn't arrived yet, so it was a very hollow environment, so lots of bass vibration transmitted right through that floor. Not so with the feet. Call it snake oil all you want, but I liked it in that particular instance. It may do nothing in your HT, so yeah, don't waste your money if it won't help. You're free to spend or save your money however you want.
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post #222 of 240 Old 05-16-2015, 01:22 AM
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Umm, nope. (A) I wasn't their boss, and (B) I purposefully did the second test WITHOUT the feet. They had no clue I had done anything differently, yet both of them happened to tell me that the 1st test was better with less vibration downstairs. 2 out of 2 saying the test with the isolation feet sounded better without having a clue I did anything differently? How is this snake oil? Perhaps for many, these feet wont make a lick of difference, but in certain environments, such as wood on an upper floor, they sure can. Much of it has to do with the construction I'm sure, as well as the furnishings and other things. In this test environment, the furniture, rugs, and everything else hadn't arrived yet, so it was a very hollow environment, so lots of bass vibration transmitted right through that floor. Not so with the feet. Call it snake oil all you want, but I liked it in that particular instance. It may do nothing in your HT, so yeah, don't waste your money if it won't help. You're free to spend or save your money however you want.
I believe you didn't notice the lump in my cheek, from my tongue firmly planted against it ;-).

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post #223 of 240 Old 05-16-2015, 02:18 PM
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I believe you didn't notice the lump in my cheek, from my tongue firmly planted against it ;-).
Doh! It was late and my sarcasm meter was broken at the time. I feel like an idiot now. Haha.
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post #224 of 240 Old 05-17-2015, 06:11 AM
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Has anyone considered or suggested that a down-firing subwoofer may be vibrating the floor surface, not through the sub cabinet but from air mass movement, and the floor may then be transferring the vibration back into the sub through its feet? A heavy sub sitting on a section of floor that's resonating with strong air movement ... would the sub dampen this, or (as its the source) accentuate it? In this case, the feet isolating the sub cabinet from the vibrating floor might reduce any distortion the sub experiences from having its cabinet "vibrating" along with the floor.

If you're chuckling, it could be because my tongue is in cheek here.... Partly.

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post #225 of 240 Old 05-17-2015, 06:21 AM
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I just got these for my PB-1000. I live in an apartment with hardwood floors. With the stock hard rubber feet that come with the sub I could feel the floor vibrate through my feet. With the isolation feet that went away. I didn't notice any change in audio quality, but the main purpose of this purchase, for me, was to avoid annoying my neighbors downstairs.
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post #226 of 240 Old 05-17-2015, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
Has anyone considered or suggested that a down-firing subwoofer may be vibrating the floor surface, not through the sub cabinet but from air mass movement, and the floor may then be transferring the vibration back into the sub through its feet? A heavy sub sitting on a section of floor that's resonating with strong air movement ... would the sub dampen this, or (as its the source) accentuate it? In this case, the feet isolating the sub cabinet from the vibrating floor might reduce any distortion the sub experiences from having its cabinet "vibrating" along with the floor.
I've covered this scenario a number of times. A floor will vibrate, caused by the low frequency output of the sub. It doesn't matter if the sub is down firing, low frequencies radiate omni-directionally. Some type of damping might be beneficial to reduce the sub's tendency to vibrate in concert with the floor. A piece of this, cut to size, would work as well as anything:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/TrafficMA...0300/202015909
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post #227 of 240 Old 05-17-2015, 08:13 AM
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Has anyone considered or suggested that a down-firing subwoofer may be vibrating the floor surface, not through the sub cabinet but from air mass movement, and the floor may then be transferring the vibration back into the sub through its feet? A heavy sub sitting on a section of floor that's resonating with strong air movement ... would the sub dampen this, or (as its the source) accentuate it? In this case, the feet isolating the sub cabinet from the vibrating floor might reduce any distortion the sub experiences from having its cabinet "vibrating" along with the floor.

If you're chuckling, it could be because my tongue is in cheek here.... Partly.
Recording engineer Barry Diament has written about "roller bearings" on his site, Barry Diament Audio. Roller bearings is a simple concept: a shallow "bowl" in which resides a 1/2" ball bearing, the bearing top contacting the bottom of the component chassis and/or speaker cabinet, three such bearings under each. As lateral/horizontal vibrations ripple across a surface (such as a floor), the roller bearing moves very slightly, preventing that energy from entering the chassis or cabinet. An isolator, in other words---the opposite of a coupler, such as spikes. It doesn't work in the vertical plane, but Barry contends that most vibration travels across a surface, the plane in which roller bearings are effective at isolation. For vertical isolation, Barry recommends an air bearing. For a more detailed discussion of Barry's experiments at improving the resolution of his studio's monitor system, go to his site.
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post #228 of 240 Old 05-17-2015, 01:17 PM
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I am not debating whether or not the rubber feet do anything. I am saying that Amazon reviews are hardly a source to prove anything, as some of the worst performing subs/mid-bass modules get stellar reviews, including the Bose Acoustimass.
You are trying to discredit the Amazon reviews for the feet based on reviews for unrelated products that you feel are poor, yet have received good reviews. Again, what you state about the Polk sub and it's reviews are totally irrelevant and the point you are trying to make missed the mark completely. Can you try and make your same misguided argument with the overwhelmingly positive reviews of the isolation feet on svsound.com?

These isolation feet simply attach to a sub. If they did nothing and were pointless, trust me, people would be quick to point that out in a negative review, no matter which store/site. Plus these are people who most likely own a high quality sub, so they aren't your average Polk PSW10 owner. The Polk PSW10 sub may not be a worthy sub in your opinion, but you are somebody who has owned/heard superior subs for a much more expensive price tag. $600-$1,000 ID subs are a niche market and the vast majority of people have never heard one, let alone owned one. A $100 sub will appeal to all the average consumers who want $100 worth of subwoofer, not $1000. What is junk to you may sound great to another, especially in the context of the price tag. Like the saying "one man's trash is another man's treasure." If you drive a Benz, I'm sure a Hyundai Elantra isn't going to do it for you. However, many other people are very happy with their Hyundai's.
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Game Room> LG 60" Plasma, Onkyo HT-RC560, Infinity P363 fronts, P163 center, P163 rears, JBL Loft40 FH, PSA XS30 & RA S-15 subs. PS4 & XBox One.
Living Room> Samsung 59" Plasma, Onkyo TX-NR509, JBL Studio 180 fronts, Studio 120c center, Polk RC60i rears, SVS PC12-NSD & PB12-NSD subs. PS3 & XBox 360.
PC set up> Yamaha RX-V377, Infinity P163's, Klipsch sub-12.
Master BR> Samsung 42" LED, Yamaha RX-V375, Denon 5 spkr, Jamo sub360.

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post #229 of 240 Old 05-17-2015, 02:29 PM
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Selective reading is more like it. I can favorably review the polk sub and favorably review a submersive. Not sure why it's not possible. I imagine a few people around here dress like Morpheus ala Matrix.

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So do you choose the red pill or the blue pill?
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post #231 of 240 Old 05-17-2015, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
You are trying to discredit the Amazon reviews for the feet based on reviews for unrelated products that you feel are poor, yet have received good reviews. Again, what you state about the Polk sub and it's reviews are totally irrelevant and the point you are trying to make missed the mark completely. Can you try and make your same misguided argument with the overwhelmingly positive reviews of the isolation feet on svsound.com?
You don't understand the point I am making. It's ok though. If it makes you feel any better, I just got done ordering two sets of rubber feet for my subs. Not sure how well they are reviewed on Amazon though.
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post #232 of 240 Old 05-17-2015, 06:49 PM
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Selective reading is more like it. I can favorably review the polk sub and favorably review a submersive. Not sure why it's not possible. I imagine a few people around here dress like Morpheus ala Matrix.
True. I can give a favorable review to the SVS PB12-NSD and also give a favorable review to the Pioneer SW-8. One review has nothing to do with the other. It's in the context of what you are reviewing the sub on.

Game Room> LG 60" Plasma, Onkyo HT-RC560, Infinity P363 fronts, P163 center, P163 rears, JBL Loft40 FH, PSA XS30 & RA S-15 subs. PS4 & XBox One.
Living Room> Samsung 59" Plasma, Onkyo TX-NR509, JBL Studio 180 fronts, Studio 120c center, Polk RC60i rears, SVS PC12-NSD & PB12-NSD subs. PS3 & XBox 360.
PC set up> Yamaha RX-V377, Infinity P163's, Klipsch sub-12.
Master BR> Samsung 42" LED, Yamaha RX-V375, Denon 5 spkr, Jamo sub360.
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post #233 of 240 Old 05-18-2015, 05:08 AM
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New SVS Isolation feet

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
You are trying to discredit the Amazon reviews for the feet based on reviews for unrelated products that you feel are poor, yet have received good reviews. Again, what you state about the Polk sub and it's reviews are totally irrelevant and the point you are trying to make missed the mark completely. Can you try and make your same misguided argument with the overwhelmingly positive reviews of the isolation feet on svsound.com?
You don't really think SVS will leave negative reviews up on their own site, do you? You can't be that naive. Seriously.

I understood Bear123's point to be that you can't objectively accept that a product is superb simply based on crowd-sourced reviews on Amazon. Even leaving aside review spamming and shills (which happens more than you may think), the number of extreme positive and negative reviews varies with the product and customers. If a product isn't demonstrably bad, I wouldn't expect to see lots of negative reviews (i.e. only if a product fails to meet consumer expectations would I expect to see 1-star reviews).

Amazon reviews aren't objective, neither are the averages. Never will be. A little like Rotten Tomatoes or IMDb ratings ... just a measurement of opinion.


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The point is that someone claimed that, since the feet have high reviews on amazon, they must work. I am not debating whether they work or not, just stating that a product with good reviews on Amazon is hardly proof of a good performing product, as evidence by thousands of stellar reviews on horrible performing subs/mid-bass modules, and even the Bose module.



Anyways, that's the relationship...good reviews on Amazon doesn't hold much weight.

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post #234 of 240 Old 05-18-2015, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
You don't really think SVS will leave negative reviews up on their own site, do you? You can't be that naive. Seriously.

I understood Bear123's point to be that you can't objectively accept that a product is superb simply based on crowd-sourced reviews on Amazon. Even leaving aside review spamming and shills (which happens more than you may think), the number of extreme positive and negative reviews varies with the product and customers. If a product isn't demonstrably bad, I wouldn't expect to see lots of negative reviews (i.e. only if a product fails to meet consumer expectations would I expect to see 1-star reviews).

Amazon reviews aren't objective, neither are the averages. Never will be. A little like Rotten Tomatoes or IMDb ratings ... just a measurement of opinion.
Unless it's a science panel reviews are mostly subjective based on expectations. This is true across all manufacturers, retail websites, and the AVS threads.
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post #235 of 240 Old 05-18-2015, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
You don't really think SVS will leave negative reviews up on their own site, do you? You can't be that naive. Seriously.
So now you are accusing SVS of removing negative reviews on their site? That's a pretty bold assumption on your part. And yes, there are unfavorable reviews on their site. Even Amazon has plenty of negative reviews for products. I've left several negative reviews on Amazon over the past 10 years and none of them were ever removed. You are really reaching now.

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post #236 of 240 Old 05-18-2015, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
So now you are accusing SVS of removing negative reviews on their site? That's a pretty bold assumption on your part. And yes, there are unfavorable reviews on their site. Even Amazon has plenty of negative reviews for products. I've left several negative reviews on Amazon over the past 10 years and none of them were ever removed. You are really reaching now.
Am I accusing them? I dunno. I just don't expect a promotion page to include negative reviews of their own products:

http://www.svsound.com/reviews
http://www.svsound.com/reviews/press-reviews

Maybe you're looking at a different section of their site than I am. Link, please?

I didn't say Amazon DOESN'T have negative reviews, and I didn't say that they remove them. Again, they are crowd-sourcing their reviews for an aggregate rating system. Shills and spammers tilt the scales there.

Straw man arguments ... pfft.

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post #237 of 240 Old 05-18-2015, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
Am I accusing them? I dunno. I just don't expect a promotion page to include negative reviews of their own products:

http://www.svsound.com/reviews
http://www.svsound.com/reviews/press-reviews

Maybe you're looking at a different section of their site than I am. Link, please?

I didn't say Amazon DOESN'T have negative reviews, and I didn't say that they remove them. Again, they are crowd-sourcing their reviews for an aggregate rating system. Shills and spammers tilt the scales there.

Straw man arguments ... pfft.
Whatever, dude. You said I was totally naive to think SVS would leave negative reviews on their site. This is totally off topic now. I'm jumping off this train before it's totally off the tracks.

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post #238 of 240 Old 05-18-2015, 08:06 PM
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My old sb12-nsd would move around and rattle on the title floor, so I considered these feet or some other damper. Ended up settling with a $2 pack of painters sponges like this: http://www.brushstore.co.uk/shop/JumboSponge126.jpg I put two down and balanced the sub on top. The feet would just barely touch the floor. Completely solved the problem.

Now I have two SB-2000 on the same tile floor and don't need the sponges with those subs.
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post #239 of 240 Old 05-19-2015, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Whatever, dude. You said I was totally naive to think SVS would leave negative reviews on their site. This is totally off topic now. I'm jumping off this train before it's totally off the tracks.
It's not like Brandon Bostian is engineering it.





...... Too soon?
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I Thought They Looked Kewl, Like Dude ...
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