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post #1 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys.
Is a bigger badder sub any way to make up for poor placement?

In my room I am just very limited to sub placement. I currently run dual subs in each front corner (two of the only realistic spots) and although the bass is decent at the main position, I can tell when I move to other spots in the room it is much fuller and has more impact.

I run sealed subs, perhaps a ported design would help this?
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post #2 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 01:52 AM
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Which subs do you have and what is your room size?

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post #3 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 04:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Well it's nothing streamlined but in one corner I have a DIY 15" in a sealed enclosure. And in the other corner due to size restraints I have a Def tech supercube 4000.
Room is 15'X12' with a semi-vaulted ceiling.
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post #4 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 05:18 AM
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Well it's nothing streamlined but in one corner I have a DIY 15" in a sealed enclosure. And in the other corner due to size restraints I have a Def tech supercube 4000.
Room is 15'X12' with a semi-vaulted ceiling.

Well you can safely switch def tech off and take it out of the mix. Reality check ...... all the def tech subs are overly priced junk.
With the kinda money you unknowingly wasted on SC4000, you could get the likes of PSA XV-15 and with just a $200 more HSU VTF15H could also have been had. These subs can easily, surely, and blatantly murder SC 4000 on their own.

My advice is to get rid of SC 4000 and redeem as much cash as possible. For now, a little bit your equipment......which avr are you using and how is your system set up i.e. manual calibration or on auto EQ? Also, how far are the front 3 speakers from your main listening position? What is the physical distance of your sub from MLP?

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post #5 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah the supercube is def. on the way out. Size in that corner is an issue so maybe an svs cylinder sub. But ported and sealed might conflict huh?
I'm using an Onkyo TX-NR1010 for receiver which has the audyssey xt32 and sub eq by for calibrating dual subs.
My mains are roughly 10ft from listening position.
Maybe sell both my subs and get dual svs pc-12s. Only concern is I'm not sure if they will go as low as my 15".
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post #6 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Subs are roughly 12ft from mlp.
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post #7 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Hey guys.
Is a bigger badder sub any way to make up for poor placement?

It is any way, but it is not the only way.

For example if you can locate a sub in an unbroken corner it will pick up a lot of room gain and it will have to work less to produce a given amount of bass. A smaller less competent sub can benefit.

The worst case is probably putting the sub in the middle of the room, even hanging in space distant from the floor or the ceiling. A really strong sub and lot of equalization can overcome even this to a useful degree.
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In my room I am just very limited to sub placement. I currently run dual subs in each front corner (two of the only realistic spots) and although the bass is decent at the main position, I can tell when I move to other spots in the room it is much fuller and has more impact.

The general solution for uneven bass is more subs, each optimized for its location and overall system response.
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I run sealed subs, perhaps a ported design would help this?

I would minimize the difference between sealed and ported subs if you have adequate equalization in the system and adequate dynamic range in the sub(s) to make up any differences.
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post #8 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Room is 15'X12' with a semi-vaulted ceiling.
Is your couch against the back wall? If not, can you move your subs so that they are right behind the couch?

Sanjay
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post #9 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Yeah the supercube is def. on the way out. Size in that corner is an issue so maybe an svs cylinder sub. But ported and sealed might conflict huh?
I'm using an Onkyo TX-NR1010 for receiver which has the audyssey xt32 and sub eq by for calibrating dual subs.
My mains are roughly 10ft from listening position.
Maybe sell both my subs and get dual svs pc-12s. Only concern is I'm not sure if they will go as low as my 15".

I'd reckon you go for one PC13-Ultra or dual PC12-Plus. Either will give you depth down to 15-16Hz in your room with minimum footprint. Duals will offer more balanced response over a larger listening area. If budget allows, go for PC-13 Ultra and buy another later when funds are available. Even single is enough, but for balanced response, at least two are required.

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post #10 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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braveheart that sounds like a very viable option.

Here is a pic of my room layout if it makes it any easier to understand where I am coming from.
I've also included the bass "Sweet Spot" on the diagram if that helps at all?

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post #11 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

braveheart that sounds like a very viable option.

Here is a pic of my room layout if it makes it any easier to understand where I am coming from.
I've also included the bass "Sweet Spot" on the diagram if that helps at all?


I have a PC12+ in a similar size room 13x14x9 and in 16hz mode I'm told by Ed from SVS that I should be getting around 13hz or so extension down low. It definitely rocks the room. Fortunately I don't really have any placement issues as I get a pretty even bass response (judged by ear) across all 4 seats of the sofa.

One thing I would do with your setup is to move the couch off the back wall by as much as you can, 2-3 ft would be good. I think that would help.

I had a "super" cube 8000 prior to my SVS. It was OK and had decent sound and output above 25hz or so, but trailed off pretty fast and was SOOOOOO overpriced. To make matters worse, where I live I can't sell it not even for half price. mad.gif

Anyway, the SVS PC subs are great and with the + or Ultra version being tunable I think you'll get as good of extension as you have now.

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post #12 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I hear ya. I will throw the "cube" on Craiglist and the only offers I get will probably be to trade it for a mountain bike or X-box 360, LOL. smile.gif
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post #13 of 20 Old 10-03-2013, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

braveheart that sounds like a very viable option.

Here is a pic of my room layout if it makes it any easier to understand where I am coming from.
I've also included the bass "Sweet Spot" on the diagram if that helps at all?



It's a small room and yet it has 5 doors eek.gif. Your room layout is somewhat unorthodox. You are not utilizing longest walls. Subwoofers are more at home if kept along the longest walls as bass frequencies tend to be pile up in the corners and along the walls. Which, means your orientation is wrong. It would be better if move your front stage on the right side wall and sofa on the left. But, I don't see it happening coz of that 5th door in the right side wall.

Still, I think you can achieve better bass response if you excite room modes from multiple sides using the same room layout. Keep one sub in the front left corner where your 15" DIY is and the other diagonally in the corner i.e. the corner on the right side of sofa along the rear wall. Also, push your sofa about a a foot into the room so you are away from the rear wall. I don't think you can push it any further into your room coz your mains will be too close to MLP narrowing the sound stage, which btw is already narrow coz your mains can't be pushed further apart coz of those doors on either side the screen.

Reagarding subs, give a shot to PC13-Ultra. You don't like it, you have a 45 day return period. Even a pair of PC12-Plus would do the job just fine if you can't afford dual ultras.

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post #14 of 20 Old 10-04-2013, 04:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm also considering building a new DIY and replacing my 15 with a TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18". I'm thinking this may also solve my problem. smile.gif
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post #15 of 20 Old 10-04-2013, 04:43 AM
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You can buy a sub with 2 million watts on tap with 100000000 inches of Xmax displacing the air as much as a jumbo's exhausts, but if it isn't placed in its optimum location in the listening room, it will still not serve your purpose.

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The best EQ is no EQ ...

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post #16 of 20 Old 10-04-2013, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

You can buy a sub with 2 million watts on tap with 100000000 inches of Xmax displacing the air as much as a jumbo's exhausts, but if it isn't placed in its optimum location in the listening room, it will still not serve your purpose.
Actually, this would give you a pretty good response, since your eliminating the room...literally. wink.gif
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post #17 of 20 Old 10-04-2013, 05:38 AM
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yeah you're right

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The best EQ is no EQ ...

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post #18 of 20 Old 10-04-2013, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

You can buy a sub with 2 million watts on tap with 100000000 inches of Xmax displacing the air as much as a jumbo's exhausts, but if it isn't placed in its optimum location in the listening room, it will still not serve your purpose.

I suspect that you might be unintentionally be engaging in a bit of hyperbole. It is clear that a lot of people have a hidden or not-so-hidden talent for putting their subwoofer(s) in the worst spot(s) in the room.

But, finding the absolute optimum location is not necessary. It helps and it would be nice, but even absolutely finding that spot is not necessarily easy. For example the optimum spot might be 7 feet off the floor. Unlikely but it can still be true. How would you find it?

In most cases finding a good spot or at least avoiding the worst spot or spots suffices. An old argument with me - I don't want to scare people away from enjoying the benefits of subwoofers.
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post #19 of 20 Old 10-04-2013, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
I suspect that you might be unintentionally be engaging in a bit of hyperbole. It is clear that a lot of people have a hidden or not-so-hidden talent for putting their subwoofer(s) in the worst spot(s) in the room.

But, finding the absolute optimum location is not necessary. It helps and it would be nice, but even absolutely finding that spot is not necessarily easy. For example the optimum spot might be 7 feet off the floor. Unlikely but it can still be true. How would you find it?

In most cases finding a good spot or at least avoiding the worst spot or spots suffices. An old argument with me - I don't want to scare people away from enjoying the benefits of subwoofers.

I don't know what you are getting at, but I simply want OP to understand that a sub's performance is placement and room dependent regardless of its capabilities on paper. I've been experimenting with different subs with placements in different locations (including my friends' houses), not only in horizontal plain but in vertical also, and validating my results with REW over the course of around 3 years. My bro in law's HT area at his house is an acoustical graveyard for any subwoofer, and I know what I'm saying.


And the beauty of the fact is that YOU know it fully well where I was coming from, but still why this argument?

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The best EQ is no EQ ...

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post #20 of 20 Old 10-04-2013, 09:47 AM
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Since the sound at the MLP is decent, I would guess upgrading sub(s) will show a noticeable improvement. The most obvious upgrade is to replace the smaller sub with a larger one. I don't think you need to rearrange any furniture.
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