Upgrade to XT32 OR adding another FV15hp? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I am currently running a Denon 3312 MultiXT avr with a single FV15hp. Reading all the comments about smoother FR has made to think about adding another FV15hp to run dual in my ~2700 ft^3 seal room. I have plenty of output and extension in my room running single sub. I also read lots of good thing a XT32 avr can do for sound especially in the sub department. Some folks see improvement with XT32 that stay with a single sub. It is not I don't like how my system sounds, matter of fact, it is quite the opposite but like folks here, I always look for improvement any way I can afford. So question for you guys: Upgrade to a xt32 avr or adding another FV15hp running off a MultiXT avr? Which one yields more significant sound improvement? I think I know the answer but would like to hear your thought. Thanks.
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post #2 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 08:16 AM
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Ideally, you would do both, but given the option of one or another, I think adding a second sub would be more beneficial to your low frequency response. Audyssey can't correct things, like nulls for example, that adding a second sub can correct.
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post #3 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 08:20 AM
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Adding another FV15HP IMO. Those subs have continuously variable phase knobs and can delay the signal up to 16ms if i'm not wrong. That means you can add upto 16 ft of distance. You can control one sub from your current avr and the other sub through its delay knob for smooth blending.

For taming the higher frequencies; I don't know if it is worth upgrading the avr coz no experience with XT32 audyssey version here.

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post #4 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 08:24 AM
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You probably read about the smoothing effect on frequency response that multiple subs can provide. Dual FV15 HP's will also give you a ton of headroom.

I would go with another FV 15HP for now and wait to upgrade the electronics. Also, have you considered an Anti Mode sub EQ?
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post #5 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 09:17 AM
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XT32 is overhyped imo...you can get better results with a external eq device such as a mini dsp. That being said I agree with the above, the more subs, the less eq'ing will be needed...get another FV15HP.
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post #6 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 09:23 AM
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While I disagree that XT32 is overhyped, in this case I will agree with everyone else. I would recommend getting a second sub AND get a MiniDSP to perform the EQing. XT32 does make an improvement to what you have, but not nearly as much as adding a second sub will. Of course, everyones' setup and room response is different so I'll have to add the disclaimer YMMV.
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post #7 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 09:32 AM
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Since several retailers will allow you to return items, why not get a AVR with XT32 & decide for your self?
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post #8 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

While I disagree that XT32 is overhyped, in this case I will agree with everyone else. I would recommend getting a second sub AND get a MiniDSP to perform the EQing. XT32 does make an improvement to what you have, but not nearly as much as adding a second sub will. Of course, everyones' setup and room response is different so I'll have to add the disclaimer YMMV.

why go with XT32 if one is aquiring a mini dsp?
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post #9 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 09:43 AM
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Adding a second sub make a huge difference for me, I returned a 4311 and use pioneer reciever. I like the way pioneer sounded with a minidsp. More versatile in my experience of course.
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post #10 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 09:50 AM
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For subs I'd think miniDSP would be more helpful. As I understand it, XT and XT32 are the same (subwoofer wise) and the difference comes in the form of getting the extra filters for the upper freq. that XT32 offers.

That said, the AVRs that have XT32 also tend to come with SubEQ HT in most cases.

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post #11 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 09:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

So question for you guys: Upgrade to a xt32 avr or adding another FV15hp running off a MultiXT avr? Which one yields more significant sound improvement? I think I know the answer but would like to hear your thought. Thanks.

Both. Or, in your case, upgrade to a refurbished Denon, 4520ci and later add an additional subwoofer or two.

There's never enough money to stay abreast of a hobby's technology so one needs to add incrementally. August of 2012, we replaced the flat screen, added an upgraded AVR, a center channel and upgraded the subwoofer's driver/passive radiators.

This year (2013), we added a subwoofer, Anti-Mode 8033S II and the ability to measure and graph our room's acoustics. Next year, I'd like to upgrade the subwoofer system and the AVR. It's all incremental, according to how fast the Benjamins are able to accumulate in one's wallet. biggrin.gif

In our case, I'd do both but financially, I can only do one. With that in mind, I'll upgrade the subwoofers first and then upgrade the AVR with the latest and greatest in our price range. The reason I would do it opposite to what I recommended for you is because not much more than a year ago (August last year), we upgraded the AVR.

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post #12 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

why go with XT32 if one is aquiring a mini dsp?

XT32 has a higher filter resolution across the board as opposed to XT. Not only that, but MOST implementations of XT32 also incorporates MultEQ HT which will set phase and delay for two sub channels independently as well. This is not a big issue with the MiniDSP, but it still helps. Like I said, I would recommend getting a second sub + MiniDSP over upgrading to XT32.

XT: Satellites - 16 / Sub - 128
XT32: 512 for all channels.

In my setup, I use the MiniDSP to set the phase, delay and EQ so that I get the highest output with the flattest response out of my system before I run Audyssey. This will provide a flatter response than using either the MiniDSP or Audyssey alone. REW measurements have proven this. As a final note, XT32 improves clarity over XT across the board and not just in the subs. Again, the "improvement" may not be as significant as adding a second sub. Hence my recommendation for a second sub over upgrading to XT32.
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post #13 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Ideally, you would do both, but given the option of one or another, I think adding a second sub would be more beneficial to your low frequency response. Audyssey can't correct things, like nulls for example, that adding a second sub can correct.
I agree with this. ^^^ However, room measurement capability is not on his list of potential upgrades, and I believe that it should be.

Craig

PS. IMO, Audyssey XT32 is NOT over-hyped. I have used it with *excellent* results in a number of systems, including my own.

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post #14 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

XT32 has a higher filter resolution across the board as opposed to XT. Not only that, but MOST implementations of XT32 also incorporates MultEQ HT which will set phase and delay for two sub channels independently as well. This is not a big issue with the MiniDSP, but it still helps. Like I said, I would recommend getting a second sub + MiniDSP over upgrading to XT32.

XT: Satellites - 16 / Sub - 128
XT32: 512 for all channels.

In my setup, I use the MiniDSP to set the phase, delay and EQ so that I get the highest output with the flattest response out of my system before I run Audyssey. This will provide a flatter response than using either the MiniDSP or Audyssey alone. REW measurements have proven this. As a final note, XT32 improves clarity over XT across the board and not just in the subs. Again, the "improvement" may not be as significant as adding a second sub. Hence my recommendation for a second sub over upgrading to XT32.

I understand what XT32 is, but you said you disagreed with my post, then recomended the same thing I did? All I was saying is XT32 is over hyped for subwoofer eq. For the main speakers is completely different. IF I was wrong you would not be using a mini dsp with your XT32 AVR.
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post #15 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I agree with this. ^^^ However, room measurement capability is not on his list of potential upgrades, and I believe that it should be.

Craig

PS. IMO, Audyssey XT32 is NOT over-hyped. I have used it with *excellent* results in a number of systems, including my own.

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post #16 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I understand what XT32 is, but you said you disagreed with my post, then recomended the same thing I did? All I was saying is XT32 is over hyped for subwoofer eq. For the main speakers is completely different. IF I was wrong you would not be using a mini dsp with your XT32 AVR.

No, read my post again. I didn't disagree with your post. I only disagreed with your statement that XT32 is overhyped. While XT32 may not be for everyone, it is a very good product that makes a considerable improvement for most people. The better your room is acoustically, the less improvement you will get out of XT32. Most people will not have an acoustically well treated room. XT32 will be of great benefit for most of these rooms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

While I disagree that XT32 is overhyped, in this case I will agree with everyone else.

Just for clarification, this post wasn't directed towards you or else I would have quoted you. I was directing this post to the OP. So the bolded statement includes you with "everyone else" that I was agreeing with. Hope this clears it up.
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post #17 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 12:06 PM
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ahh i see...thx!
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post #18 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 12:14 PM
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As I said before go with FV15HP. You will have two subs; integrating them won't be that big an issue IMO. As regards upgrading the avr, don't waste money. Invest in acoustic treatments, which is gonna cost you less and will go a longer way than the new avr.

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post #19 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


I agree with this. ^^^ However, room measurement capability is not on his list of potential upgrades, and I believe that it should be.
 

 

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post #20 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 12:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

As I said before go with FV15HP. You will have two subs; integrating them won't be that big an issue IMO. As regards upgrading the avr, don't waste money. Invest in acoustic treatments, which is gonna cost you less and will go a longer way than the new avr.

I have to disagree as research and personal experience has shown me that room treatments thick enough to make a difference, are unsightly (a conflict in aesthetics) and very expensive. Without room measuring capabilities, one is shooting in the dark as they're clueless how much the room treatments are adding/taking away from the sound quality.

Before adding room treatments, one needs to be able to measure and integrate the subwoofers that have, into their room's acoustics. The price of a refurbished 4520ci drops like a stone when compared to six or eight inch thick, sound wave absorbing, bass traps that have a sound deadening coefficient worth a Tinker's Damn. And, in my opinion, a Denon, 4520ci, looks a whole lot better sitting on an entertainment center shelf then a bunch of thick foam pads/panels do, when stuck/placed all over the living room.

Experience has shown me, coupled with REW led EQ efforts, a very lively (ringing) room can be well controlled with nothing more than proper subwoofer placement.

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post #21 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 12:56 PM
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Experience has shown me, coupled with REW led EQ efforts, a very lively (ringing) room can be well controlled with nothing more than proper subwoofer placement.

I don't think so. I've measured terrible sub response in rooms with bare walls and hard floors.

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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I don't think so. I've measured terrible sub response in rooms with bare walls and hard floors.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I'm not posting about a naked room but a normal lively room with some throw rugs, stuffed furniture and other normal furniture pieces such as coffee tables, curio cabinets and sofa tables with decorator items placed all about. One can hear lots of echos as they clack around on the laminate flooring. Maybe my limited room measuring experience is an anomaly and I just got lucky.
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post #23 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 01:17 PM
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Maybe my limited measuring experience is an anomaly and I just got lucky.

Yes you might have gotten lucky. Throw rugs can't do nothing taming the sub response, they rather reduce early reflections of higher frequencies. Moreover I was also talking about the normal living room with all the bits n bobs that are normally there in such rooms but with bare walls and floors.

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post #24 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 01:21 PM
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OP, you decide yourself as to which has the least diminishing returns i.e. upgrading your avr or adding another sub? I think adding another sub has the least. A sub bought today won't be obsolete 15 years from now or as long as it works if you do not blow the driver or amp. AVR would be.

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post #25 of 47 Old 10-04-2013, 02:28 PM
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I think it's interesting that there's a uniform response here. Is this a first at AVSForum?

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post #26 of 47 Old 10-05-2013, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

I think it's interesting that there's a uniform response here. Is this a first at AVSForum?

I'm going to go back and agree with getting measurement equipment first. A USB mic and REW will teach you a lot. You'll need to see if your first sub is positioned in the best spot and then see if you can put the second one in the next best spot.

It would be a shame to buy the second sub only to measure later and realize they work best collocated. Not a huge chance of that but it could happen. I'm only using that exams to emphasize the importance of measuring first.

Identify the problem first. Then buy the tools to fix it.

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post #27 of 47 Old 10-05-2013, 07:11 AM
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buy the tools to identify the problem, then fix it.

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post #28 of 47 Old 10-05-2013, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys, thanks for all the helpful replies. Everyone seems to agree another fv15hp plus REW/mini dsp/anti mode is a better option. Now I just need to find time to do it which I do not see this year.
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post #29 of 47 Old 10-05-2013, 09:16 AM
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Start with REW. You may not need to change any of your equipment, just placement/settings/etc.

But you WILL need time.


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post #30 of 47 Old 10-05-2013, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

Cowboys: Where are you located? I have a calibrated mic and REW as well as a cheap-O SPL meter.
Not far from you, in Dallas.
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