Open floor plan + subwoofer = help - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all,

Slowly putting together my HT setup which also happens to be the family/living room. I had narrowed down my sub search to a HSU VTF3-MK4; however, I'm beginning to have 2nd thoughts. Second thoughts were prompted recently by plugging in my old reliable Logitech z-2300 2.1 system in the living room. This system used to rattle pictures and doors in college, but that was in a typical size dorm room. Upon hooking the system up as a temporary audio solution in the living room, I was terribly disappointed in the subs performance. I had no idea room size/setup played such a big part in a subs performance.

This demonstration got me to wondering if the HSU VTF3-MK4 will be enough sub to fill the open floor plan living room. I have attached pictures to illustrate my room set up. I currently have no audio components in the room.

My question is: are dual subs necessary for adequate bass or could I get away with a VTF3 or a VTF-15?

Will be purchasing soon: pair Arx A3, one Arx A2, and denon x1000 avr.
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post #2 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 04:44 PM
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How much bass are you looking to have? Is that basically the whole 1st floor and it is all rooms are open to each other minus the door on the bathroom?

Where did you place the Z2300 subwoofer to test it out? If you're looking for a lot of bass you're gonna need a lot more subwoofer(s) to fill that entire area.

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post #3 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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It's really hard to quantify how much bass I'm looking for, but I will do my best to describe it.
I don't need room shaking, pictures falling off the wall bass. I'm looking for that nice, crisp, deep, and clean bass that you get in your car from a higher end 10" sub. Nothing muddled or very boomy, just precise and clean. I wouldn't mind if my couch vibrated a bit during explosion scenes or bass heavy music.

The whole first floor is open. The darker bold lines are walls, but the only place you can be in an enclosed space on first floor is the bathroom or one of the storage closets.

Admittedly, the logitech z2300 sub was not optimally placed for the loudest bass possible. I put the speakers on the mantle (see floor plan) and the sub just to the right of thr mantle on the floor about six inches from wall and about 3.5 feet from nearest corner. I had a feeling that the vtf3 wouldn't be quite enough sub to pressurize such a large area. My next question is...dual vtf3, single vtf15, or dual vtf15?
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post #4 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 05:23 PM
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I would go for dual subs. One thing you can do is order one VTF3 and if that isn't enough, get another one within a month to get the dual discounts. Also, the closer you place the sub to the listening position, the more you can remove the need to pressurize the entire space. Near-field placement is a good workaround for getting great bass in a large space. How close can you place the sub to the listening position?
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post #5 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 05:32 PM
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Dual vtf-3's would be nice smile.gif
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post #6 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I could probably put the sub along the side wall (wall adjacent to couch). This would put the sub about 4 feet from main listening position.

Another option would be to place it directly beside the couch which would be about 1 foot from listening position. This would put the sub partly in the walkway between family room and kitchen/breakfast so I may run into some opposition concerning WAF.

I think I may just order one vtf3 like you said and see how it performs at various positions in the room. If I need more I can always order another sub. You think dual vtf3 are better than one vtf15 behemoth?
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post #7 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 06:10 PM
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Just go with a PSA XV30/XS30 on the left of the couch and tell her its an end table wink.gif
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post #8 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RxDrugDealer View Post

You think dual vtf3 are better than one vtf15 behemoth?

I think two VTF3s would be better than a single VTF15h.
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post #9 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

Just go with a PSA XV30/XS30 on the left of the couch and tell her its an end table wink.gif

I honestly had never seen this sub until now. Pricewise, its in line with dual vtf3. Any idea how it compares? Besides just being dual 15 vs 12s. Are they known for quality/well reviewed subs like HSU? Even though there are 2 subs in the PSA, they are still housed in a single enclosure. Would it give similar performance as dual vtf3 which would be in two different locations in the room?
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post #10 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 06:35 PM
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Most on here would say to go with dual subs over a single sub because it helps smooth out the response in the room.

There are quite a few on this forum that enjoy the PSA subs, although shadyJ has his own opinion of them smile.gif

In regards to performance, I'll let the more knowledgeable guys answer that.

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post #11 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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VTF3 and PSA XV15 are $800 shipped. Am I missing something here? 15 inch and 12 inch are the same price? Is the HSU really that much better to justify the same price as a 15 inch sub?
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post #12 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 08:08 PM
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The basic specs don't tell the whole story. The end result is what really matters, and a heavy duty 12" driver can outperform a 15" or even an 18" driver. There are a lot cheaper large driver subs and much more expensive small driver subs, and often (but not always) there are good reasons for the price increase. Yes, the Hsu price is justified when you compare their performance.
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post #13 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RxDrugDealer View Post

VTF3 and PSA XV15 are $800 shipped. Am I missing something here? 15 inch and 12 inch are the same price? Is the HSU really that much better to justify the same price as a 15 inch sub?

You are paying for more features such as variable tuning and peq controls on ths hsu VTF-3. The XV15 has basic amp controls and focuses mores on bang for the buck. The XV15 has 1db more in the 20-31hz and 4db more in the 40-80hz range compared to the VTF-3 in 2 port max output mode. If you put the VTF-3 in 1 port max extension mode, it will equal or slightly best the XV15 at 16hz but then its down 4db 20-31hz and down 6db above 40hz to the XV15.


http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk4.html

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-power-sound-audio-xv15
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post #14 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

You are paying for more features such as variable tuning and peq controls on ths hsu VTF-3. The XV15 has basic amp controls and focuses mores on bang for the buck. The XV15 has 1db more in the 20-31hz and 4db more in the 40-80hz range compared to the VTF-3 in 2 port max output mode. If you put the VTF-3 in 1 port max extension mode, it will equal or slightly best the XV15 at 16hz but then its down 4db 20-31hz and down 6db above 40hz to the XV15.


http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk4.html

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-power-sound-audio-xv15

The Q control isn't a PEQ really. Also, you are overstating the output advantage a XV15 will have over a VTF3.
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post #15 of 34 Old 10-06-2013, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Been reading the replies here and also a lot of related threads on various forums and have now decided on dual subwoofers. I think, like a lot of people in this price range, I have narrowed it down to either dual vtf3 or svs pbs-12. I know this comparison has been made a million times, but do you guys have any insight on these two offerings? Seems like pbs-12 gets a lot more love on the forums vs. vtf3. people generally don't have bad things to say about the vtf3, they just end up with pbs-12 for some reason.

I will most likely get one sub now, then wait a few weeks for the second due to financial constraints. May even decide I only need one during that time, who knows.

Thanks in advance for the advice.
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post #16 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 12:04 AM
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I have a large openarea like the op and I went with Chase dual 18.1. Thet filled and shook over 6,500 cu ft. Dollar/displacement, you can't beat the Chase subs. They don't come with plates amp that can be a problem and you can get several amps in different price range that can increase performance.

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post #17 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The Q control isn't a PEQ really. Also, you are overstating the output advantage a XV15 will have over a VTF3.

The point was the HSU amp has more features and The numbers are clearly stated in the links provided. wink.gif
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post #18 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RxDrugDealer View Post

Been reading the replies here and also a lot of related threads on various forums and have now decided on dual subwoofers. I think, like a lot of people in this price range, I have narrowed it down to either dual vtf3 or svs pbs-12. I know this comparison has been made a million times, but do you guys have any insight on these two offerings? Seems like pbs-12 gets a lot more love on the forums vs. vtf3. people generally don't have bad things to say about the vtf3, they just end up with pbs-12 for some reason.

I will most likely get one sub now, then wait a few weeks for the second due to financial constraints. May even decide I only need one during that time, who knows.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

The PB12NSD, VTF-3, and XV15 all are great subs. PSA seems to be the more popular choice right now in this forum. However you can not go wrong with either sub. Take note SVS and PSA offer 5yr warranties, while HSU offers a 5yr warranty for a extra 80.00, so that ends up making the HSU the most expensive option among the 3. Also SVS has a great trade in/upgrade program. Point is I would contact all three companies and consider all the little perks each company offers aside from performance alone smile.gif
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post #19 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 08:15 AM
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^^^ +1

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post #20 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 09:37 AM
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Surprised no one has mentioned a single Rythmik FV15HP. If youre considering 2 Hsu VTF 3's, the Rythmik is worth looking at.
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post #21 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The point was the HSU amp has more features and The numbers are clearly stated in the links provided. wink.gif

You are mixing data sets in the XV15's favor. When PSA tried this against the VTF15h, they ended up with egg on their face when a truly fair comparison was actually conducted, and you will recall that I cautioned them against that. As you well know, S&V has some pretty serious inconsistencies in their measurements. I wouldn't use them.
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post #22 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You are mixing data sets in the XV15's favor. When PSA tried this against the VTF15h, they ended up with egg on their face when a truly fair comparison was actually conducted, and you will recall that I cautioned them against that. As you well know, S&V has some pretty serious inconsistencies in their measurements. I wouldn't use them.

No I am not...I posted links to Cea2010 data. Even if you subtract 9db from the hsu measurements and compare to the XV15 numbers on data-bass, the out come is the same. I already checked before posting. You can also subtract 9db from the S&V numbers for both the PC12 and XV15 and they are right there with data-bass. The XV15 outperforms the VTF-3 on average, I cant help that bothers you. Do I think the XV15 is a better sub, no not really. Like I said before, the VTF-3 has more features at the sacrafice of some output....Its up to the end user to decide what is better for them. For 800.00 some might want all the output they can get and others might want variable tuning, with q controls.
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post #23 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 01:34 PM
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No I am not...I posted links to Cea2010 data. Even if you subtract 9db from the hsu measurements and compare to the XV15 numbers on data-bass, the out come is the same. I already checked before posting. You can also subtract 9db from the S&V numbers for both the PC12 and XV15 and they are right there with data-bass. The XV15 outperforms the VTF-3 on average, I cant help that bothers you. Do I think the XV15 is a better sub, no not really. Like I said before, the VTF-3 has more features at the sacrafice of some output....Its up to the end user to decide what is better for them. For 800.00 some might want all the output they can get and others might want variable tuning, with q controls.

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post #24 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 01:59 PM
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Even though Hsu's numbers for the VTF15h agreed pretty well data-bass's, I would still be reluctant to mix their data sets. That being said, if we are to compare those sets, your approximations would generally be correct. However, averaging the numbers does a favor to the XV15 by concealing its frequency response.
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post #25 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You are mixing data sets in the XV15's favor. When PSA tried this against the VTF15h, they ended up with egg on their face when a truly fair comparison was actually conducted, and you will recall that I cautioned them against that. As you well know, S&V has some pretty serious inconsistencies in their measurements. I wouldn't use them.
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No I am not...I posted links to Cea2010 data. Even if you subtract 9db from the hsu measurements and compare to the XV15 numbers on data-bass, the out come is the same. I already checked before posting. You can also subtract 9db from the S&V numbers for both the PC12 and XV15 and they are right there with data-bass. The XV15 outperforms the VTF-3 on average, I cant help that bothers you. Do I think the XV15 is a better sub, no not really. Like I said before, the VTF-3 has more features at the sacrafice of some output....Its up to the end user to decide what is better for them. For 800.00 some might want all the output they can get and others might want variable tuning, with q controls.

Here we go again!

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post #26 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Even though I feel I have learned much on this site about home theater, I still am a novice when it comes to most of this. I don't think I will need variable tuning. I would also rather have a 5 year.vs 2 year warranty. I feel like this knocks out the HSU offerings. With that being said, is there a reason that the xv15 is more popular right now on this forum vs comparable subs (the pb12 in particular)? Theres about a $50 price difference between the two, with the pb12 edging out the xv15 in this category. Other than price and size, what are the main advantages/disadvantages of these two well-reviewed subs?
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post #27 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Even though Hsu's numbers for the VTF15h agreed pretty well data-bass's, I would still be reluctant to mix their data sets. That being said, if we are to compare those sets, your approximations would generally be correct. However, averaging the numbers does a favor to the XV15 by concealing its frequency response.

You can be reluctant, however Its pretty much a given in recent tests that data sets can be mixed with accurate results. All averaging the numbers do is give one a idea of what kind of output they will actually hear. Unless you play a test tone at a certain frequency for any length of time, you would never be able to tell one sub has a advantage over the other at one specific frequency. You dont like the frequency response of the XV15 and thats ok. Like I said already I dont think the XV15 is a better sub because it has a output advantage, both have thier pros and cons. We can just agree to disagree...smile.gif
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The XV-15 is the clear winner in overall max output over the PB12. The PB12-NSD has DSP that gives it a very linear response. Given the size of your room, I would go with the XV-15 if only one sub.

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post #29 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 04:41 PM
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Have not heard any PSA sub but used to have the HSU vtf2.3 and it was a good sub, the vtf3.4 is better than the 2.3 (I have listened to all HSU subs when I was working by its head quarter in Anaheim). The XV15 and vtf3.3 are good subs in the same price range but based on data and warranty, PSA is a better deal. Just my opinion of course.
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post #30 of 34 Old 10-07-2013, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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The XV-15 is the clear winner in overall max output over the PB12. The PB12-NSD has DSP that gives it a very linear response. Given the size of your room, I would go with the XV-15 if only one sub.

What if I were to go dual subs in the near future? Would that give the advantage to PB12? From what I'm gathering, and correct me if I'm wrong, I wouldn't really make mistake by going with either one. I'm leaning a little more towards the xv15 due to slightly more output. I would love to get away with just one sub and still keep the price point below $800.
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