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post #91 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I would recommend set the LFE trim to -10db (not subwoofer trim).

Hi brian. Thanks for the tip. But this is all wrong. This defies the DD/DTS movies playback standards. LFE has to be played back 10dB louder than the redirected bass or one doesn't feel the impact.
My DIY sub powered by iNuke 6000 DSP doesn't flutter. I have a useful output down to 20Hz from that sub. I don't touch the LFE level. And this is not the only sub um using.

As I said before, there is no fluttering whatsoever when I use "Line In" even beyond my loudest reference volume. It's the LFE input causing the problem. Why don't DACs overload when the input is Line In?

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post #92 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Hi brian. Thanks for the tip. But this is all wrong. This defies the DD/DTS movies playback standards. LFE has to be played back 10dB louder than the redirected bass or one doesn't feel the impact.
10db boost is correct. But where does it happen? Sometimes both the player and AVR boost 10db in certain mode which causes double boost.
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My DIY sub powered by iNuke 6000 DSP doesn't flutter. I have a useful output down to 20Hz from that sub. I don't touch the LFE level. And this is not the only sub um using.

As I said before, there is no fluttering whatsoever when I use "Line In" even beyond my loudest reference volume. It's the LFE input causing the problem. Why don't DACs overload when the input is Line In?
Fluttering is indication of signal overload. Does the fluttering occur when you play -10db down. That will help me understand the problem. If the amp has a problem, we will send a replacement amp.
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post #93 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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10db boost is correct. But where does it happen? Sometimes both the player and AVR both boost 10db in certain mode which causes double boost.

My AVR is Cambridge Audio Azur 751R. In my limited knowledge about amps I don't know if it has an OP amp on the pre out or not to boost the signal 10dB louder for the sub.
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Fluttering is indication of signal overload. Does the fluttering occur when you play -10db down. That will help me understand the problem. If the amp has a problem, we will send a replacement amp.

I calibrate all my speakers to 75dB and sub around 77-78dB. My loudest listening reference volume is 75dB normal and with 20dB peaks, it is 95dB on the speakers and (105db+5dB for redirected bass=110-112dB) on the sub. My normal listening volume is 65dB, so, actually um -20dB from reference. It means if LFE is left to 0dB in the AVR, the sub plays back at 100-102dB max when peaks kick in during movies.

Even at -20dB below reference volume, the fluttering occurs when LFE input is used on the sub in the movies I mentioned.
With Line In input I kept the sub 6dB hotter than speakers and raised the MV to -5dB (keeping LFE at 0dB in AVR), there is no fluttering and output is enormous.

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post #94 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 10:34 AM
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It does sound like the LFE input stage on the plate amp is a problem. Plz use the line in for now before we sort out how to send u a replacement amp.
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post #95 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok many thanks.

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post #96 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

I play that WWZ many times at reference and did not hear any noise at MLP. I should add that when I was playing WOTW at reference with subs 6dbs hot earlier TODAY, I was sitting on the floor right in front of each sub (one at the time) to see if I can detect port noise. None was heard.

Do you have one or two ports open for that scene?

I have had some more time today to play with the sub. I have had to move a lot of items, take down pictures from walls, re-organize my storage closet, etc because I had so many things in the room rattling. So far my only issue is at the very end of the grenade blast. I have no frame of refrence for this. I do not know if what I am hearing is the scene, the sub, or what. Everythig is so clean and precise right up to the moment of the last rumble. At that point it gets muddy, not sure if it is port noise, the scene, or something else. I tried both LFE and Line In and it sounds the same in both settings.

Oddly enough if I start the scene right at the end it sounds very clean.
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post #97 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 11:45 AM
 
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Could be your room creating some lingering standing wave issues in the lower octave which are muddying up the sound quality. And when you start, the standing wave issues aren't readily apparent. ???

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post #98 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Do you have one or two ports open for that scene?

I have had some more time today to play with the sub. I have had to move a lot of items, take down pictures from walls, re-organize my storage closet, etc because I had so many things in the room rattling. So far my only issue is at the very end of the grenade blast. I have no frame of refrence for this. I do not know if what I am hearing is the scene, the sub, or what. Everythig is so clean and precise right up to the moment of the last rumble. At that point it gets muddy, not sure if it is port noise, the scene, or something else. I tried both LFE and Line In and it sounds the same in both settings.

Oddly enough if I start the scene right at the end it sounds very clean.
I use my system with 1 port open 14hz/low.
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post #99 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Could be your room creating some lingering standing wave issues in the lower octave which our mudding up the sound quality. And when you start, the standing wave issues aren't readily apparent. ???

... confused.gif

You may not be far off. By the time that scene ends I have walls ceilings, and brains rattling. I am out of time today, but when I get a chance I may move the sub into the middle of the room and see if it does it.

It will be easier after Christmas .... it is my understanding that Santa may be bringing me furniture movers. smile.gif
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post #100 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

I use my system with 1 port open 14hz/low.

Thanks for the info. When I get more time I will play some more. I recorded WOTW so I can try the POD emergence scene. Try to get a few more frames of reference.
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post #101 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

I would recommend set the LFE trim to -10db (not subwoofer trim). You should find the bass sound more natural. Earlier this year I went to Denver to check Woody777's FV15HP. He had a similar problem. He later set to -10db and that solved the problem. Even myself had that problem two month ago when the I got a new player. When you have LFE 10db too hot and on top of that, you have sub trim 5db hotter, you can easily overload the digital to analog converter. So what you hear is the clipping noise of D/A converter. Resolve the LFE trim level first. If you'd like to play sub trim 5db hotter, first level match by setting sub trim @-6db by turning up plate amp volume higher. Then you change the sub trim to -1db to have an equivalent of 5db hotter. This will prevent the signal clipping inside AVR before it send out to FV15HP.

Hi brian............this is what I did;

---- Amp setting = 14Hz/Low, Limiter Off, Rumble Filter Off, Line In Input with 80Hz/24 LPF
LFE Trim in the AVR = 0dB
Sub Trim in AVR = 00 (which is actually 77-78dB on SPL meter i.e. 2-3dB hotter than the rest of the speakers)

Result With above settings I cranked the volume to -10dB (10dB below reference) and found no driver fluttering with enormous amount of bass (108dB) on The Skyfall orphanage blow up scene.

---- Amp setting = 14Hz/Low, Limiter Off, Rumble Filter Off, LFE Input with AVR/12 LPF
LFE Trim in the AVR = -10dB
Sub Trim in AVR = 00 (which is actually 77-78dB on SPL meter i.e. 2-3dB hotter than the rest of the speakers)

Result All things equal, no fluttering observed at -10dB (10dB below reference) even with LFE input. But bass output dropped to (101dB) on the same Skyfall scene. Then I changed just the LFE trim. Set it back to 0dB in AVR keeping every other thing the same. This time around, the driver fluttering kicked in at -20dB below reference.

This clearly shows there is something wrong with the LFE input. Line Level input works perfectly fine.

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post #102 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

This clearly shows there is something wrong with the LFE input. Line Level input works perfectly fine.

Based on what we have gone through, it does sound like the signal path on the LFE input has a problem.
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post #103 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Based on what we have gone through, it does sound like the signal path on the LFE input has a problem.

Yes you are right. It's the LFE input causing the problem. Logically speaking the final SPL of sub should be same if we use LFE input on the sub and set LFE trim level in AVR to -10dB OR we leave the LFE trim level in AVR at 0dB and use Line In on the sub. But the DAC on LFE input surely isn't applying 10dB boost correctly as it is supposed to.

The DAC on Line In input on the amp doesn't boost the signal by 10dB, but yet it plays just fine coz LFE is already being fed 10dB hotter than the redirected bass.

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post #104 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 03:00 PM
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Off topic, but those inside shots look very cool. Lots of bracing, big transformer, big caps, big magnet.

I had a broken Velodyne DD15 open once, and it had a giant driver magnet, but no bracing and much wimpier grade transformer and caps, despite the high wattage and high price.
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post #105 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post

Off topic, but those inside shots look very cool. Lots of bracing, big transformer, big caps, big magnet.

I had a broken Velodyne DD15 open once, and it had a giant driver magnet, but no bracing and much wimpier grade transformer and caps, despite the high wattage and high price.

I searched the entire web for some inside box pictures of FV15HP before buying. But found none. This problem pushed me over the edge to open up the amp and see what's inside. So I decided to post the pics for people like me who want to know how sturdy this box is made along with the insight on the driver basket/magnet and amp.

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post #106 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 03:35 PM
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^^ Thanks. Agree with rcohen. It looks very impressive. I have never seen a big transformer and big caps on sub amp before.
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post #107 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 04:49 PM
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The caps we use in the H600 series are Panasonic. We buy the caps here in the USA and ship them to China for assembling. The DS1510 voice coil is made in Florida, USA and ship to China for assembling as well.

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post #108 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 05:03 PM
 
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I like big caps. It's a shame Marantz doesn't buy/use big caps. Doing so would make their reference play a lot stronger. One can hear the sound (volume) bleed out of the speakers on prolonged, demanding passages. Thank-you Rythmik for using such large caps.

I'm going show Marantz though. Our next AVR is going be a Denon 4520ci. That'll show Marantz; us consumers can't be trifled with.

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post #109 of 249 Old 12-21-2013, 06:12 PM
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Marantz and Denon are the same company, D&M Holding. The Denon 4520CI is the same Marantz AV8801 but with the power section. My Marantz SR7008 is a Denon X4000 but with some extras, but internally are almost the same receiver.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr5008-sr6008-sr7008

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post #110 of 249 Old 12-22-2013, 05:37 AM
 
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Yes, you're correct. Sorry. Once again, fail. Please note the tongue.gif emoticon at the end of the comment you responded to. On this forum, I'm of the opinion that it's common knowledge, Denon and Marantz are the same company. The above is just another example of my recent epic fails as an ironic online comedian.

The missed irony of the humor, by stepping away from Marantz, and going to Denon, the same company is going get our money.

(maybe I shouldn't have quit my day job as I don't think I'm going be making a very good living as an uncompensated comic)

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post #111 of 249 Old 12-22-2013, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know but thus far um not thrilled with FV15HP. Was it worth the time, cost, and energy to have it shipped to my doorstep 10,000 miles eek.gif away from TX? A big NO, at least, up till now.

There is tremendous amount of headroom and depth; but I'm not impressed with the SQ. May be it's partly attributed to the faulty LFE input on the amp. Um limited to using Line level input only at this poin tin time. So, I will not say any further about this sub till the time I get the replacement amp.

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post #112 of 249 Old 12-22-2013, 06:53 AM
 
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After all you've been through, I feel your frustration. Totally blows. Sorry to read your expectations weren't met. I'm confident that Rythmik (Brian) will do their best to assure you're happy with your purchase.
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post #113 of 249 Old 01-11-2014, 10:49 PM
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Have you received a replacement amp yet or figured anything out with this?

I was hoping to order a pair of subs in the next month or so and the FV15HP is in my top 3 options.

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post #114 of 249 Old 01-11-2014, 11:29 PM
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I know you were frustrated so I put together a couple of options for you Brave. Option one is a little 5cf 12” HO with a 25hz tune. I then decided maybe a 8cf 18” HO with a 20hz tune might serve you better? Anyway I leave it up to you. Just be sure to save me that little 300 is all I ask.


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post #115 of 249 Old 01-11-2014, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you received a replacement amp yet or figured anything out with this?

I was hoping to order a pair of subs in the next month or so and the FV15HP is in my top 3 options.

I spoke to Brian a couple of days ago and he said he'd ship it out the following week. So still another 2-3 nail biting weeks of wait.

Anyway, good luck with your purchase of FV15HP.

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post #116 of 249 Old 01-11-2014, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I know you were frustrated so I put together a couple of options for you Brave. Option one is a little 5cf 12” HO with a 25hz tune. I then decided maybe a 8cf 18” HO with a 20hz tune might serve you better? Anyway I leave it up to you. Just be sure to save me that little 300 is all I ask.


That's only after I've received the replacement amp and I've run FV15HP through its paces. If it blows me away, which it should considering it's the most talked about sub on planet U.S., I will order another one. If it doesn't; good bye to ID subs forever and I will go back to DIY route.

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post #117 of 249 Old 01-11-2014, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

That's only after I've received the replacement amp and I've run FV15HP through its paces. If it blows me away, which it should considering it's the most talked about sub on planet U.S., I will order another one. If it doesn't; good bye to ID subs forever and I will go back to DIY route.

Hey nothing wrong with ID subs! I’ve been over in DIY practically all day back and forth telling it how it is. You know me, I’m a pain in the arss with my play. wink.gif Anyway seriously though, I hope things work out for you and sooner rather than latter.

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post #118 of 249 Old 01-12-2014, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey nothing wrong with ID subs! I’ve been over in DIY practically all day back and forth telling it how it is. You know me, I’m a pain in the arss with my play. wink.gif Anyway seriously though, I hope things work out for you and sooner rather than latter.

I know, and so am I when it comes to accurate bass wink.gif; but FV isn't giving me what I had hoped for in terms of SQ. I hope it is coz of the faulty amp and this is not the actual sonic signature of this sub.

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post #119 of 249 Old 01-13-2014, 01:50 AM
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I don't know but thus far um not thrilled with FV15HP. Was it worth the time, cost, and energy to have it shipped to my doorstep 10,000 miles eek.gif away from TX? A big NO, at least, up till now.

There is tremendous amount of headroom and depth; but I'm not impressed with the SQ. May be it's partly attributed to the faulty LFE input on the amp. Um limited to using Line level input only at this poin tin time. So, I will not say any further about this sub till the time I get the replacement amp.

Did u run auddessey? How was the frequency sweep sound on the sub?

I am kind of in the same boat and a bit confused as to what could be wrong. To start with, the auddyssey calibration frequency sweep on the sub just doesnt sound right (the usual thud/door knock sound, its more high frequency, with a bassy sound). I'm also using LFE in. Due to this i cant say i have the perfectly calibrated sub levels.
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