$1,200 Sub(s) recommendation - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 24 Old 10-20-2013, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Room: 23x13x8'

Current gear:

Pioneer Elite Sc-37
Martin logan Motion 40 towers
Motion 30 Center
Motion 15 surrounds
Jbl CSS 110 10" sub

I'm looking to upgrade the sub. I'm torn between 1x 15" or 2x 12", etc. $1,200 budget but could swing a bit more. Aesthetics are important, I want something that looks good with my speakers which are piano black, so no black oak veneer recommendations please.

I'm really the only critical listener in our media room/loft so I'm debating the value of one vs. two subs. Would it be better to get a larger sub with more extension? Or 2 subs to smooth the bass response? What will I notice with a 15" vs 2x 12"?

Also, since the Pioneer doesn't eq below 60hz, do I need to be sure to get a sub with eq on board?

I've been debating a Rythmik D15SE or possibly 2x HSU Vtf2-Mk4. Both fit the $1,200 budget. I like the idea of a sealed sub that will still go low for HT. I'm about 60/40 Movies/Music.

What do you guys think?
emcdade is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old 10-20-2013, 08:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,006
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 1449
how about a pair of svs sb12nsd's. they come in piano black for 1249.00 shipped.
basshead81 is offline  
post #3 of 24 Old 10-20-2013, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
I'm seeing $1,379 for piano black pair. How would they compare to a 15" Rythmik?
emcdade is offline  
post #4 of 24 Old 10-20-2013, 08:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,006
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 1449
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

I'm seeing $1,379 for piano black pair. How would they compare to a 15" Rythmik?

you didnt click on the dual subwoofer discount...trust me They are 1249.00 shipped for piano black.

http://www.svsound.com/dual-subwoofers/dual-sb12-nsd.

The Rythmik would have more output, but the SVS subs would offer a better response. I prefer duals over a single.
basshead81 is offline  
post #5 of 24 Old 10-20-2013, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

you didnt click on the dual subwoofer discount...trust me They are 1249.00 shipped for piano black.

http://www.svsound.com/dual-subwoofers/dual-sb12-nsd.

The Rythmik would have more output, but the SVS subs would offer a better response. I prefer duals over a single.

Does having a smoother response across the area really matter if I'm sitting in the same seat all the time and can eq the sub?
emcdade is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old 10-20-2013, 09:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,006
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 1449
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

Does having a smoother response across the area really matter if I'm sitting in the same seat all the time and can eq the sub?

Its hard to say unless you measure your room response. Not all rooms react the same...you could get a good response with one sub or duals may be needed. You can start with one and add another down the road if need be. Take note you can eq one better sub and end up with less output then dual "lesser" subs depending on how much eq was applied to net a flat response.
basshead81 is offline  
post #7 of 24 Old 10-20-2013, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Its hard to say unless you measure your room response. Not all rooms react the same...you could get a good response with one sub or duals may be needed. You can start with one and add another down the road if need be. Take note you can eq one better sub and end up with less output then dual "lesser" subs depending on how much eq was applied to net a flat response.

Thanks a lot, good info. This is going to be a tough choice.
emcdade is offline  
post #8 of 24 Old 10-21-2013, 02:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rnatalli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 85
I'd probably go with the dual SB12-NSD in piano black myself. The Rythmik downfiring sub in piano black is an excellent choice also.
rnatalli is offline  
post #9 of 24 Old 10-21-2013, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Does anyone have an opinion on the Aperion Bravus II 12D? It's fit and finish look great and it was Audioholics Large room certified. I wonder if I will truly notice it's lack of extension compared to the Rythmik D15SE? It's not like I listen to pipe organ recordings. Do you expect it to perform well in my room for HT? I'm afraid of the finish on the SVS subs looking cheap.
emcdade is offline  
post #10 of 24 Old 10-21-2013, 09:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,006
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 1449
SVS build quality and warranty is Top notch.

Go to Data-bass.com/systems and compare data between the SB12 and Aperion Bravus.

The Aperion will have more output from 25-60hz, but drops like a rock below 25hz. For Home Theatre you want a sub that will net some decent output down to 15hz. The SB12 shows 12hz extension, however not with real strong output. I would think a pair would net some fairly strong output down to 20hz and decent in the 16hz. Oh and several on this forum have stated the piano gloss finish is amazing. I am not a fan of piano gloss black anything, too much up keep. jmo
basshead81 is offline  
post #11 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 03:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rnatalli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 85
I agree with regards to the Aperion. Their subs are well built and have excellent finish, but their output down low is a bit weak compared to others.
rnatalli is offline  
post #12 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 06:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 2,890
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked: 203
If you want to get a second sub later, then I suggest getting one better sub. If you want to get what's best right now, get two subs. With one sub, it's very difficult to get an even room response.

Your room is big, so I'm not sure you'll be able to go deeper with a sealed sub. Sealed subs rely on room gain to dig deep and room gain works better with smaller rooms.
KidHorn is offline  
post #13 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 06:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
steve nn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

Does anyone have an opinion on the Aperion Bravus II 12D? It's fit and finish look great and it was Audioholics Large room certified. I wonder if I will truly notice it's lack of extension compared to the Rythmik D15SE? It's not like I listen to pipe organ recordings. Do you expect it to perform well in my room for HT? I'm afraid of the finish on the SVS subs looking cheap.

No I would stay away from the Aperion. Nice little sub, just not built up to spec considering your other options imo. I just built a dual PR design that the 12” driver alone weighs as much as the Ap. Great design if done right though.. not that they didn’t, they have their own goals and $$ into the offering to consider. Not sure where you get the finish opinion on the SVS offerings though?? I would beg to differ, although they seem to be scaling back on finish select ability.

Klipsch RB-75
Klipsch C-7
Klipsch RB-35
On-going SW management class
Denon
PS3
steve nn is offline  
post #14 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

If you want to get a second sub later, then I suggest getting one better sub. If you want to get what's best right now, get two subs. With one sub, it's very difficult to get an even room response.

Your room is big, so I'm not sure you'll be able to go deeper with a sealed sub. Sealed subs rely on room gain to dig deep and room gain works better with smaller rooms.

I don't know, I think if the Rythmik graph is correct I'll be pretty happy w/ 3db down at 14hz? It sounds like a win/win, tight and controlled bass for music with a sub that still digs below 20hz. I'm not sure I really care about what goes on at less than 25hz to be honest. I'm not trying to really rattle the foundation here. The two SVS subs are certainly tempting as well. What do you think I'll be giving up if I go with the SVS compared to the single Rythmik?

Thanks again everyone.
emcdade is offline  
post #15 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 09:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
spyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

I don't know, I think if the Rythmik graph is correct I'll be pretty happy w/ 3db down at 14hz? It sounds like a win/win, tight and controlled bass for music with a sub that still digs below 20hz. I'm not sure I really care about what goes on at less than 25hz to be honest. I'm not trying to really rattle the foundation here. The two SVS subs are certainly tempting as well. What do you think I'll be giving up if I go with the SVS compared to the single Rythmik?

Thanks again everyone.

You would essentially be giving up the octave from 12.5Hz- ~25Hz
spyboy is offline  
post #16 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 03:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,628
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
Liked: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

I don't know, I think if the Rythmik graph is correct I'll be pretty happy w/ 3db down at 14hz? It sounds like a win/win, tight and controlled bass for music with a sub that still digs below 20hz. I'm not sure I really care about what goes on at less than 25hz to be honest. I'm not trying to really rattle the foundation here. The two SVS subs are certainly tempting as well. What do you think I'll be giving up if I go with the SVS compared to the single Rythmik?

Thanks again everyone.

The sealed Rythmik isn't going to give you much more low bass than the SVS. You certainly aren't going to get any significant 14 Hz bass from either. If you want palpable deep bass, you will need to go ported.
shadyJ is online now  
post #17 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The sealed Rythmik isn't going to give you much more low bass than the SVS. You certainly aren't going to get any significant 14 Hz bass from either. If you want palpable deep bass, you will need to go ported.

So their graphs are a lie? Either way, certainly not going ported since I'll be using this sub for 2ch. Everything I've read about the Rythmik has been superlative to say the least. Rythmik it is.
emcdade is offline  
post #18 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 05:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,628
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
Liked: 518
Their graphs were probably measurements taken at a very low output level. At higher volumes these sealed subs roll off at higher frequencies. You need a huge amount of output at 14 Hz for it to be sensible at all, and unless you have a stack of these subs, they won't make any difference at such low frequencies. The Rythmik subs are good though, and I think you'll be happy with it.
shadyJ is online now  
post #19 of 24 Old 10-23-2013, 10:37 AM
Senior Member
 
ironhead1230's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The sealed Rythmik isn't going to give you much more low bass than the SVS. You certainly aren't going to get any significant 14 Hz bass from either. If you want palpable deep bass, you will need to go ported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Their graphs were probably measurements taken at a very low output level. At higher volumes these sealed subs roll off at higher frequencies. You need a huge amount of output at 14 Hz for it to be sensible at all, and unless you have a stack of these subs, they won't make any difference at such low frequencies. The Rythmik subs are good though, and I think you'll be happy with it.

IMO, this is a simplification of the issue. I have yet to see any proof or studies about when low frequencies become sensible in real world material. I know all about the ELCs, but they are not 100% relevant to this issue. I have read about some informal listening tests of HPF vs no HPF using very capable systems and have participated in one, but they haven't been controlled tests and they have had different outcomes. Again IMO, when or if different frequencies become sensible depends on the content, room and person.

Here is what Rythmik has to say about the issue:

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/faq.html#14hz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik 
Do I really need a flat response down to 14 Hz for music?

The simple answer is yes. The more accurate, more complicated answer is that it depends on the music you are listening to. On dance mixes and music with extremely high bass contents, one does not need 14 Hz extension because of what is called the "masking effect". The masking effect occurs when a high amplitude signal is present simultaneously with other smaller amplitude signals. The perceived loudness of the smaller amplitude signal is drastically reduced. In addition, human ear's sensitivity decreases in the lower frequencies. Therefore for this type of music, one may even want to set the extension setting higher with lower damping factor setting (in our A350/A370 amps). That will make the bass sound clean (by removing ambient information) and punchy. It essentially allocates more amplifier power to the signal that we hear and care about most. On the other hand, when no such signals are present (for example, in jazz, solo and other types of music) and masking effect is not strong, one can clearly hear the difference that a 14 Hz extension makes (vs say 28 Hz extension). It is not a difference that will have you jumping out of your seat say "there's the bass". Rather it is an improvement in two areas: ambience and dynamics.

Ambience: good recordings normally capture a lot of ambience information which is predominantly low frequency signals. It is generally agreed that the lower the sub plays, the deeper, taller, and wider the sound stage becomes (or one may say open and spacious).

Dynamics: during musical transitions, a lot of the non-harmonic content is produced. Most of this content is in the very low frequency band, which will be filtered out if the bass extension is not low enough.
ironhead1230 is offline  
post #20 of 24 Old 10-23-2013, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Out of left field, I have purchased a Martin Logan Depth i from one of our forum members. I think it will provide a similar experience to the Rythmik subs, being sealed and servo controlled, and excellent for music. I do like the look of the Depth i better than the Rythmik as well. I don't expect it to plumb to great depths of ultra low frequency, but I doubt it will have any problems on movie night either. smile.gif
emcdade is offline  
post #21 of 24 Old 10-23-2013, 07:03 PM
Senior Member
 
K5/SS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Seattle
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 39
I have actually owned a Depth and a Rythmik FV15HP. They are both killer subs but the Rythmik easily handled the Martin Logan in just about every aspect. I still do have a soft spot for the Depth though. Congrats on your new sub!

Oppo BDP103, Mitsubishi WD8240, Klipsch RF-63's, Pioneer Elite SC-25, Furman Elite 15, Emotiva XPA-5, Harmony 1100, Rythmik FV15HP

K5/SS is offline  
post #22 of 24 Old 10-28-2013, 05:13 PM
Senior Member
 
Janibrewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

Out of left field, I have purchased a Martin Logan Depth i from one of our forum members. I think it will provide a similar experience to the Rythmik subs, being sealed and servo controlled, and excellent for music. I do like the look of the Depth i better than the Rythmik as well. I don't expect it to plumb to great depths of ultra low frequency, but I doubt it will have any problems on movie night either. smile.gif

Where I've come to on all this is the the MartinLogan Depths work well in my wife-controlled living room, the Rhythmiks (or other ID brand) seem like a clear choice if I ever have a dedicated home theater room, man cave, or if my wife leaves me.
Janibrewski is offline  
post #23 of 24 Old 10-28-2013, 05:23 PM
Senior Member
 
Janibrewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by K5/SS View Post

I have actually owned a Depth and a Rythmik FV15HP. They are both killer subs but the Rythmik easily handled the Martin Logan in just about every aspect. I still do have a soft spot for the Depth though. Congrats on your new sub!

K5,

Please indulge me if you will.

In my case my wife will never allow me to go from the wife friendly Depth i (I have 2 - both in Maple to match the furniture) to a Rhythmik - but I am intensely curious. Any idea what the difference would be if I had two Rhythmiks instead of the Depths? Would there be a difference whenever the LFE channel was engaged, or just on sub 20 HZ sounds? Better explosions? A difference in music? Room is similar size to that of the OP - 16d x 22w x 8h.

Thank you!
Janibrewski is offline  
post #24 of 24 Old 10-29-2013, 05:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Janibrewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janibrewski View Post

Where I've come to on all this is the the MartinLogan Depths work well in my wife-controlled living room, the Rhythmiks (or other ID brand) seem like a clear choice if I ever have a dedicated home theater room, man cave, or if my wife leaves me.

And if you have money to throw at the issue, having a Rhythmik wife-afied is possible: Salk has a Rhythmik line of subs that are Rhythmik insides with Salk outsides.
Janibrewski is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Svs Sb12 Nsd Charcoal Black Vinyl 12 Inch 400 Watt Powered Subwoofer , Hsu Vtf2 Mk4

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off