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post #1 of 33 Old 10-28-2013, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I want to upgrade my rig little by little and I think a good sub is the right first step.

 

1. Budget is around $1,000 with some flexibility for something cool.

2. Size requirements/limits. Space is not an issue. I cant imagine any reasonable (to me) sub will take up more that a couple of square feet. And I'm not really interested in running anything more than 5.1

3. Room dimensions. 20'wx15'dx10'h is the defined space, but it's open to the kitchen/foyer so the HT is also used for background music at times. The HT is against the 20' wall and it's pushing sound into a space thats about 40' deep altogether.

4. Primary uses. DVD and blue ray movies; an eclectic mix of action, drama, romcom, pixar, you name it. Netfilx gets a good workout in our house as well, i.e. Breaking Bad, Sponge Bob...the usual. And music; rock, classical guitar, top 40 (not for me), occasionally jazz.

5. Listening habits. The volume stays low to medium background music for the most part. I might turn it up for some Allman Brothers or Jimi, and it would be nice to have good volume for action movies. Other than that, there won't be much strain on the system.


6. Appearance requirements. I'd prefer furniture grade cabinetry. I do have a 6 year old grandson who jumps around like a drunk kangaroo, so we can't be too precious, but good looks are important. Wood floors and kitchen cabinets are dark cherry.


7. Timeframe. I'm willing to wait for the right opportunity but I'm ready to pull the trigger today.

 

Currently:

 

AVR Pioneer VSX 1020

front  Polk M20

center BIC DV32

rear HTD HD R80 (ceiling speakers, ordered, not yet installed)

 

I didn't put much thought into the current speakers. They just kind of happened over the years, and I'll be looking to upgrade down the road. I want a sub that will transition seamlessly from the speakers I have today to the better speakers of tomorrow.

 

Thanks for looking and commenting.

 

v/r

Kelly

 

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post #2 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 03:38 AM
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Plenty of options in that price range. I like Rythmik myself, but something like dual SVS PB-1000s for $948 shipped would do very well in that room and allow you to smooth out the response.
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post #3 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 04:18 AM
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I want to upgrade my rig little by little and I think a good sub is the right first step.

I do too. A guy can take a HTiB and add a good sub and it’ll make a huge difference. From what you post it sounds like you’re subless, so you’re in for a very nice treat! Happy shopping, you’ll get lots of good suggestions here.

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post #4 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
1. Budget is around $1,000 with some flexibility for something cool.

2. Size requirements/limits. Space is not an issue. ...

3. Room dimensions. 20'wx15'dx10'h is the defined space, but it's open to the kitchen/foyer so the HT is also used for background music at times. The HT is against the 20' wall and it's pushing sound into a space thats about 40' deep altogether.
. . .
5. Listening habits. The volume stays low to medium background music for the most part. I might turn it up for some Allman Brothers or Jimi, and it would be nice to have good volume for action movies. Other than that, there won't be much strain on the system.

6. Appearance requirements. I'd prefer furniture grade cabinetry.
IMO, options include:
- HSU VTF-15H ($999 + $143 shipping for a real-wood, rosenut veneer)
- PSA XV15 ($1,249, shipped, in a choice of real-wood veneers)
- PSA XS30 ($1,149, shipped, in a satin black finish*)
- dual SVS SB12-NSDs ($1,249, shipped, in a piano black finish)

-- Edit --
(*An XS30 in a real-wood veneer finish is $1,499, a price that might require of the budget a little too much flexibility. wink.gif )
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post #5 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

IMO, options include:
- PSA XV15 ($1,249, shipped, in a choice of real-wood veneers)

I thought the 15 was $799.
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post #6 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post

Plenty of options in that price range. I like Rythmik myself, but something like dual SVS PB-1000s for $948 shipped would do very well in that room and allow you to smooth out the response.

This is a good suggestion. I think you'll need 2 or more subs in your room.
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post #7 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 05:59 AM
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I thought the 15 was $799.
It's $799, shipped, in satin black. But the product page says it's $1,249, shipped, in a choice of real-wood veneers.
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post #8 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies and great suggestions.

 

There are 2 thoughts that jump out at me at this point. First, the size of the space may require 2 subs for the best experience, and second, I know there are threads about ported vs sealed that have gone on for years, but the consensus seems to be that for HT ported might be a better choice.

 

So far I'd have to say the Hsu VTF-15H is in the lead. It seems to check all the boxes except the desirability of dual subs.

 

The PSA XV15 looks great but it's hard not to balk at the $450 ego tax they slap on for the veneer. And the XS30 is sealed, so I need to learn more about that.

 

The dual SVS PB1000s are probably a great, cost effective choice but they're not pretty and we've already established my shallowness, and the dual SB12 NSDs look great but I wish they had some other color choices.

 

If I stretch the budget I like the dual VTF-3 MK4s at $1519. At that price point we probably open some other doors as well.

 

Thank you all for the feedback.

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post #9 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by markelbat View Post

Thanks for all the replies and great suggestions.

There are 2 thoughts that jump out at me at this point. First, the size of the space may require 2 subs for the best experience, and second, I know there are threads about ported vs sealed that have gone on for years, but the consensus seems to be that for HT ported might be a better choice.

So far I'd have to say the Hsu VTF-15H is in the lead. It seems to check all the boxes except the desirability of dual subs.

The PSA XV15 looks great but it's hard not to balk at the $450 ego tax they slap on for the veneer. And the XS30 is sealed, so I need to learn more about that.

The dual SVS PB1000s are probably a great, cost effective choice but they're not pretty and we've already established my shallowness, and the dual SB12 NSDs look great but I wish they had some other color choices.

If I stretch the budget I like the dual VTF-3 MK4s at $1519. At that price point we probably open some other doors as well.

Thank you all for the feedback.

The PSA subs veneer just recently went up...It use to be 149.00 extra. Anyhow the standard finish is not satin black as previously mentioned...Its a Black Sand Textured finish that is very durable, attractive, and Child proof per say. Dual XV15's come in a 1518.10 shipped and could be used as end tables...No grills, downward firing, durable finish = a sub your grand kid could never hurt.
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post #10 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by markelbat View Post

The PSA XV15 looks great but it's hard not to balk at the $450 ego tax they slap on for the veneer.

I would suspect it's less of an "ego tax" than custom wood veneer work is expensive to have done right. Not saying there's not a little markup, but I would bet that they probably aren't manufactured that way, but instead PSA has someone that does the application and finishing work for them--true "custom" work.

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post #11 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 09:28 AM
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... the standard [PSA] finish is not satin black as previously mentioned...Its a Black Sand Textured finish ...
For the record, though, the product pages for both the XV15 and XS30 currently refer to it as "Satin Black Texture".
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post #12 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post


This is a good suggestion. I think you'll need 2 or more subs in your room.

 

Is this because of the length of the combined rooms? If I want to just focus on the HT part of it is one good sub more than adequate for someone seated 10-12' from the screen?

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post #13 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 07:03 PM
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The PSA XV15 looks great but it's hard not to balk at the $450 ego tax they slap on for the veneer. And the XS30 is sealed, so I need to learn more about that.

I too am in the market right now for a good sub and recently emailed Tom at PSA to ask about the $450 price for the veneer and he said that the price for their wood veneer skyrocketed without any warning thus they had to increase their price for the product. It doesn't sound like they were expecting for it to happen and they just had to roll with it. 

 

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Is this because of the length of the combined rooms? If I want to just focus on the HT part of it is one good sub more than adequate for someone seated 10-12' from the screen? 

The question of: is one good sub more than adequate for someone 10-12' from the screen, is a loaded question. It all depends on how much bass you like. All things being equal, dual subwoofers are usually better than one and you have a fairly large room to pressurize.

 

That's not to say that a single sub of any of the ones you have listed won't work because as I have seen the guys on this forum say many times, "you can't go wrong with any of them". But two would most likely be better. 

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post #14 of 33 Old 10-29-2013, 08:13 PM
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I too am in the market right now for a good sub and recently emailed Tom at PSA to ask about the $450 price for the veneer and he said that the price for their wood veneer skyrocketed without any warning thus they had to increase their price for the product. It doesn't sound like they were expecting for it to happen and they just had to roll with it

Thinking here in the NW.. This might be why SVS has scaled back their veneer options or deleted some of them entirely.

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post #15 of 33 Old 10-30-2013, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markelbat View Post

Is this because of the length of the combined rooms? If I want to just focus on the HT part of it is one good sub more than adequate for someone seated 10-12' from the screen?

It's not the length per se, it's the volume. You have a lot of air to pressurize and one sub tends to get swallowed in a huge room. Generally speaking, it's very difficult to get uniform response in a room with a single sub. Two subs will give you more even response around your room.
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post #16 of 33 Old 10-30-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by markelbat View Post

I know there are threads about ported vs sealed that have gone on for years, but the consensus seems to be that for HT ported might be a better choice.
You want ported due to the room size. Sealed works well where there's cabin gain to give a boost to the low end, but your space is too large to have any cabin gain.
Quote:
That's not to say that a single sub of any of the ones you have listed won't work because as I have seen the guys on this forum say many times, "you can't go wrong with any of them".
That response would come from guys who don't have two or more subs. One is better than none, but it's the very rare circumstance where two isn't better than one.
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If I want to just focus on the HT part of it is one good sub more than adequate for someone seated 10-12' from the screen?
The distance from the mains and surrounds to the LP determines the SPL requirements of the mains and surrounds. Total room size determines the SPL requirements of the subs.

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post #17 of 33 Old 10-30-2013, 07:53 AM
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That's not to say that a single sub of any of the ones you have listed won't work because as I have seen the guys on this forum say many times, "you can't go wrong with any of them".
That response would come from guys who don't have two or more subs. One is better than none, but it's the very rare circumstance where two isn't better than one.

That is my understanding as well. One very good sub may "work" (meaning you may get by with it) but you need two or more to really have good dependable even bass. Recently I emailed SVS and PSA and to get their input on bass requirements for my room and the response was the same. A single SVS PB12-plus or PSA XV15 would work (neither one tried to oversell). When I wrote back and asked about running dual subs they both said if I could afford it and had the room two subs would be much better for all the reasons posted elsewhere on these forums. 

 

Quote:
If I stretch the budget I like the dual VTF-3 MK4s at $1519. 

 

When you add it all together it would seem the you have arrived at a good option. After all, based on what you said you are looking for and what your needs are and the fact that your room is of decent size and that two subwoofers are highly recommended as well as the fact that the HSUs look nice, it would seem going this route meets all the needed requirements.

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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You want ported due to the room size. Sealed works well where there's cabin gain to give a boost to the low end, but your space is too large to have any cabin gain.
That response would come from guys who don't have two or more subs. One is better than none, but it's the very rare circumstance where two isn't better than one.
The distance from the mains and surrounds to the LP determines the SPL requirements of the mains and surrounds. Total room size determines the SPL requirements of the subs.

I've seen this posted a number of times. Is this just for rectangular rooms or does this also hold true for odd shaped spaces? I ask because I get very good room gain in my space which is about 8000 cuft in total, with an open staircase going to the second floor and a door sized opening going to the basement.

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post #19 of 33 Old 10-30-2013, 08:55 AM
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I've seen this posted a number of times. Is this just for rectangular rooms or does this also hold true for odd shaped spaces? I ask because I get very good room gain in my space which is about 8000 cuft in total, with an open staircase going to the second floor and a door sized opening going to the basement.

 

WOW, that's huge. What is your current subwoofer set up to deal with all that space?

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post #20 of 33 Old 10-30-2013, 08:58 AM
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I ask because I get very good room gain in my space
How do you know? Cabin gain starts at the frequency where the longest room dimension is 1/2 wavelength. In your case that would appear to be about 40 feet, which is 1/2 wavelength at 14Hz, so you're not getting appreciable cabin gain above roughly 10Hz. You may be getting some assistance via room modes, but not by cabin gain.

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post #21 of 33 Old 10-31-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

WOW, that's huge. What is your current subwoofer set up to deal with all that space?

I currently have a submersive HP and F2.
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How do you know? Cabin gain starts at the frequency where the longest room dimension is 1/2 wavelength. In your case that would appear to be about 40 feet, which is 1/2 wavelength at 14Hz, so you're not getting appreciable cabin gain above roughly 10Hz. You may be getting some assistance via room modes, but not by cabin gain.

I guess I don't know for sure, but the measurements I have taken seem to show more than just room modes down low.

Here is a measurement of the HP and mains from a couple years ago connected to a denon 3311, using a CSL calibrated EMM6 mic, with no EQ.



Here is a more recent measurement of just the HP in the same location as the 1st measurement with the mic in a similar location, connected to a denon 4311, using a CSL calibrated UMIK-1 mic, with MultEQ. Don't have one with MultEQ off.



Here is a measurement of the F2, which is located along a different wall than the HP, connected to a denon 4311, using a CSL calibrated UMIK-1 mic, with MultEQ.



Don't have a close mic, but here is the ground plane FR of my subs.

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post #22 of 33 Old 11-04-2013, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I went ahead and ordered the Hsu dual VTF-3 MK4s. Thanks for the suggestions and I look forward to hooking them up.

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The subs arrived today. I unboxed one and hooked it up. It looks and sounds gorgeous! Can't wait to plug the other one in (along with the new fronts; EMP E55Ti).

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The subs arrived today. I unboxed one and hooked it up. It looks and sounds gorgeous! Can't wait to plug the other one in (along with the new fronts; EMP E55Ti).

COOL! Hope you don't forget us SW porn members

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Here you go Steve! I hope you enjoy amateur style.

 

 

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Looking gooood, very nice! Thanks for the pics. I don't get to see the HSU subs very often..

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post #27 of 33 Old 11-08-2013, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's the current setup. Speaker placement needs some work eventually, but it looks good and sounds great so far. The 46" Samsung needs to go to the garage to be replaced by a 65" plasma.

 

And the future home of the 46" screen. I put my old stuff (Polk M20s, BIC DV32CLR) in the garage along with a cheap Sony AVR and a PSW10. It makes a nice little retreat.

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Soooo, how do you like the subs?  Are they what you were hoping for? 

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post #29 of 33 Old 11-09-2013, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
 

Soooo, how do you like the subs?  Are they what you were hoping for? 

 

I've only hooked up the one and it sounds great. I'm waiting for a y connector to get the other one on line. It definitely improved the performance of the Polk M20s. Now I have EMP E55Tis and they sound even better. I don't think I'll experience the full impact until I have both subs connected and watch a movie with some serious bass.

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post #30 of 33 Old 11-09-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by markelbat View Post



Here's the current setup. Speaker placement needs some work eventually, but it looks good and sounds great so far. The 46" Samsung needs to go to the garage to be replaced by a 65" plasma.



And the future home of the 46" screen. I put my old stuff (Polk M20s, BIC DV32CLR) in the garage along with a cheap Sony AVR and a PSW10. It makes a nice little retreat.
Congrats on the subs. Have you considered a front projector? You seem to be able to mount a 110" screen or more on that wall
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