New HSU and SVS models, when...? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 10-31-2013, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Seems like most the Internet Direct companies have had the same mid/high end level models for a while now. Any ideas on when they'll do some design refreshes?

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post #2 of 36 Old 10-31-2013, 09:02 AM
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umm the SVS pb/sb1000 are fairly new, the plus and ultra series recently aquired the dsp sledge amps, and the Rythmik FV12 was redesigned and released as the LV12...PSA has been steady releasing new subs since it went into business, so what you are saying is HSU needs release a new sub?
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post #3 of 36 Old 10-31-2013, 02:23 PM
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I didn't see any new offerings from Dr. Hsu at RMAF this month. He is a super nice guy though. I did not ask him about what may be coming down his pipeline in the future though, so who knows?

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post #4 of 36 Old 10-31-2013, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I know basshead, I was talking about their mid-high level subwoofers. Those are more minor things you mentioned. I am talking about big design changes or introductions. How about a redesign of the VTF-15H or the PB13 Ultra. How about a VTF-18H or a PB-15 Ultra? There just seems to be very few design changes, and there's always room for improvement and a few new design ideas. Just look at the PSA Triax. They have gone years now with no major changes.

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post #5 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 12:24 AM
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Dr Hsu has said they are working on something but didn't say what, and he said it won't be out for awhile. I am sure that SVS is not just going to stay put as well. I doubt that either company is working on some massive ultimate sub, that is more for small scale companies. When a company like SVS and Hsu release a sub, they have to get all their ducks in a row, so to speak. They have to line up reliable manufacturers and suppliers, they have to have a finalized, well tested design that will have a low failure rate, they have to set up new QA processes, they have to build up inventory, not only of whole units but replacement parts because they have to be able to support these products for years to come, they have to work out just the right pricing, they have to have all kinds of certification and documentation and so on. It probably isn't worth it to do all that for some super sub that doesn't generate much overall profit with respect to more ordinary designs, even though the super sub might have a higher profit margin per individual unit.
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post #6 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I know it's highly involved, but if a new company that's not as established or as profitable yet, like Power Sound Audio, can make an ultimate sub, surely companies like SVS and HSU can.

That's disappointing that the new HSU's won't be out for a while. :/

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post #7 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by blake18 View Post

I know it's highly involved, but if a new company that's not as established or as profitable yet, like Power Sound Audio, can make an ultimate sub, surely companies like SVS and HSU can.

That's disappointing that the new HSU's won't be out for a while. :/

SVS did have a 'super sub' in the works a few years ago, it was the SB16 Ultra, which was tentatively priced at something like $4k. They dropped the idea because neodymium supplies were just too unreliable. As for Hsu, they never seemed to be interested in some massive sub, in the past they put more emphasis on more financially accessible subs instead of some dream sub that few could afford. Their ultimate sub system would have been a ULS-15 quad drive. This makes more sense than a super sub anyway, because lots of SPL from a single unit does nothing to address room acoustics, but a moderate amount of SPL from each of several units can add up to a healthy amount of headroom and also tame room modes.

As for the Triax, you have to wonder how carefully engineered it is and how reliable their suppliers are when not long before they started shipping, PSA switches to a totally different driver. Hsu and SVS would seem to be more cautious players.
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post #8 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Dr Hsu has said they are working on something but didn't say what, and he said it won't be out for awhile. I am sure that SVS is not just going to stay put as well. I doubt that either company is working on some massive ultimate sub, that is more for small scale companies. When a company like SVS and Hsu release a sub, they have to get all their ducks in a row, so to speak. They have to line up reliable manufacturers and suppliers, they have to have a finalized, well tested design that will have a low failure rate, they have to set up new QA processes, they have to build up inventory, not only of whole units but replacement parts because they have to be able to support these products for years to come, they have to work out just the right pricing, they have to have all kinds of certification and documentation and so on. It probably isn't worth it to do all that for some super sub that doesn't generate much overall profit with respect to more ordinary designs, even though the super sub might have a higher profit margin per individual unit.

That’s a very good point shady. Although I have stated in the past how important change is in todays fast pace and competition driven product line considering my past experience. I also know how fast my previous employer was to dump a product that didn’t appeal to the masses even though many liked the product and how much $$ was ponied up to produce, design and market the product. mmm, I think I’ll shut my big trap more when the subject comes up! rolleyes.gifcool.gif

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post #9 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 05:16 AM
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Hsu and SVS would seem to be more cautious players.

Maybe so?? but then that’s not to say PSA will not go the same route when the time is right. I’m sure they have their issues just the same as HSU and SVS did when they were younger.

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post #10 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 06:09 AM
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At least SVS and HSU are not as bad as Axiom. Axiom's been going on 7-8yrs with the same subwoofers and the only thing that has changed is the price keeps going up and up.
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post #11 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

At least SVS and HSU are not as bad as Axiom. Axiom's been going on 7-8yrs with the same subwoofers and the only thing that has changed is the price keeps going up and up.

Auh!!! so that's what sent you to the dark side. Axioms prices rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #12 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 06:34 AM
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Maybe I just lack imagination, but I feel like the ID sub market is already packed to the rafters with makes and models... I do think it would be neat if SVS had a sealed system in between the SB12 and the SB13; also if Hsu had some high quality sealed options in addition to the ULS-15. On the other hand I'm sure their decisions have been made according to demand.

At any rate, no matter what your price point is, this market has several options for you. I wonder how much more product diversity it can realistically support tongue.gif

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post #13 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Maybe I just lack imagination, but I feel like the ID sub market is already packed to the rafters with makes and models... I do think it would be neat if SVS had a sealed system in between the SB12 and the SB13; also if Hsu had some high quality sealed options in addition to the ULS-15. On the other hand I'm sure their decisions have been made according to demand.

At any rate, no matter what your price point is, this market has several options for you. I wonder how much more product diversity it can realistically support tongue.gif

SVS used to have the SB12 Plus. I imagine that maybe the reason they don't carry it anymore is its just too incremental of a step between the SB12 and SB13 for the small sub market. If you want a small sub and don't have a lot of money, get the SB12 NSD, but if you do have a generous budget, the SB13 looks like a nice alternative to the JL Audio subs and mearly half the cost. That leaves a SB12 Plus filling an awfully small niche. As for Hsu, they could release something like a ULS-12, but there is already a bunch of sealed 12"s out there. One thing Hsu doesn't have is a small, high performance sub. They only have a small entry level sub, the STF1. Hsu should think about something using passive radiators. Take the VTF2/3 driver, put it in a small cabinet with a couple of PRs, viola, that would sell like hot cakes. When guests see my VTF3s, their eyes boggle when I tell them that is a subwoofer, not a piece of furniture.
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post #14 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 07:24 AM
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This is an interesting thread, guys and a topic I brought up recently in Hsu VTF15-H subwoofer thread. From Hsu's standpoint, it has been almost 3 years since the VTF15 was introduced. I am not sure about "new products" from Hsu, but a "MK2" update for the VTF-15H (with a more powerful amplifier and improved driver...) should be feasible, just like he's done in the past with the VTF2's, and VTF3's designs. I venture to say we would most likely see something "new" from SVS sooner than from Hsu.
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post #15 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

SVS used to have the SB12 Plus. I imagine that maybe the reason they don't carry it anymore is its just too incremental of a step between the SB12 and SB13 for the small sub market. If you want a small sub and don't have a lot of money, get the SB12 NSD, but if you do have a generous budget, the SB13 looks like a nice alternative to the JL Audio subs and mearly half the cost. That leaves a SB12 Plus filling an awfully small niche. As for Hsu, they could release something like a ULS-12, but there is already a bunch of sealed 12"s out there. One thing Hsu doesn't have is a small, high performance sub. They only have a small entry level sub, the STF1. Hsu should think about something using passive radiators. Take the VTF2/3 driver, put it in a small cabinet with a couple of PRs, viola, that would sell like hot cakes. When guests see my VTF3s, their eyes boggle when I tell them that is a subwoofer, not a piece of furniture.

Yes--they certainly did once have the SB12-Plus! And I was too late to that party. And as I said, I'm sure their product marketing decisions are driven by demand. It's just that there's an extension gap between the SB12 and the SB13; if you're looking for a sealed sub with deeper extension than an SB12, but you don't want to pony up $1600, then you have to check other brands. That's what I did, consequently.

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post #16 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Luis5150 View Post

This is an interesting thread, guys and a topic I brought up recently in Hsu VTF15-H subwoofer thread. From Hsu's standpoint, it has been almost 3 years since the VTF15 was introduced. I am not sure about "new products" from Hsu, but a "MK2" update for the VTF-15H (with a more powerful amplifier and improved driver...) should be feasible, just like he's done in the past with the VTF2's, and VTF3's designs. I venture to say we would most likely see something "new" from SVS sooner than from Hsu.

Well I wonder--SVS just released their SB/PB1000 systems, as well as their new Ultra line of loudspeakers. They've been pretty busy.

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post #17 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 08:36 AM
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I agree the HSU's lineup is kid of stale. The VTF-15H is lacking for a flagship model.

I wonder why PSA hasn't offered a 12" sub. If they can deliver a decent ported one for say $599, I bet it would sell pretty well. Something similar to what Outlaw sells.

I wonder why there aren't many 18" subs. Chase seems to be the only company offering them at an affordable price.
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post #18 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 08:57 AM
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I'd love to see Outlaw come out with an all down firing 15" sub with maybe a 600-800 watt rms amp. I also think it would be neat if one of the ID companies would make a sub shaped like the Triax but just 1 15" powered driver and 2 15" Passive Radiators. Kinda like the older Klipsch RT12d but obviously way better.
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post #19 of 36 Old 11-01-2013, 09:18 AM
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eD had a lot of different models, hows that working out for them?

Flagship subs aren't normally high volume sellers. The triax has done well at its introductory price and the trade up program. How it will sell at its current price with competition such as the jtr s2 (which i am guessing has a bit more output if you compare drivers) or subm master slaves has yet to be seen.

Big amps, drivers, enclosures, increased shipping all adds up. When you get to 3G+ the diy approach and using outboard pro amps becomes more cost effective for the consumer. You can get a flat pack enclosure and lms ultra for ~$1100.

Hsu has never been about flagship models as shady pointed out. I don't think the 15h could take a new driver and amp and be a finished product. With additional displacement would probably need additional port area and additional internal bracing. Once you change the driver, amp, and enclosure you have an entirely new model.

How would a svs sb16u sell at its probably price point against the likes of the already established seaton, jtr, triax?

These are businesses which i am sure have a handle on what they are doing. Its fun to be armchair quarterbacks, but i am sure they have their reasons for choosing product placement, sales demographics, and profit margins.

My 2¢.
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post #20 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Very interesting replies, I love it!

I really think HSU should at least offer a more powerful amp in their VTF-15h, it's only got a 350 watt RMS amp in there. That really isn't much for being their flagship model. I'd say offering a 500 watt BASH amp would be a great option at minimum.

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post #21 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Luke, your post honestly comes off as condescending and highly rude. Not welcome here.

Your eD example is completely non-sensical. Look at Epik, they only had two models and they took a dump as well. So touché.
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post #22 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 01:18 AM
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With a high sensitivity driver with limited xmax, the VTF15h just don't need a lot of power. More power might gain it more upper bass output, but who cares when it's already flat in frequency response from its tuning points on up. 350 watts is plenty.
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post #23 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 01:29 AM
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No, the VTF15's cheap driver and weak amplifier aren't a good value for >$1000, not with the competition that's out there; and I'm surely not the only person who feels this way. They can do better and their customers deserve better.

Look at what you get from other manufacturers for a grand, see offerings from SVS around that price (PC12-Plus, $1200) or from Rythmik (E15HP, $1240). More expensive but not by much, and in return for that little extra cost you get hugely higher quality components. There's no dodging this, the VTF15 is made of very humble components but it costs almost as much as vastly better built systems.
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post #24 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 02:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I really think SVS is dropping the ball in the $900-$1000 price range.

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post #25 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

No, the VTF15's cheap driver and weak amplifier aren't a good value for >$1000, not with the competition that's out there; and I'm surely not the only person who feels this way. They can do better and their customers deserve better.

Look at what you get from other manufacturers for a grand, see offerings from SVS around that price (PC12-Plus, $1200) or from Rythmik (E15HP, $1240). More expensive but not by much, and in return for that little extra cost you get hugely higher quality components. There's no dodging this, the VTF15 is made of very humble components but it costs almost as much as vastly better built systems.

I am skeptical about the driver too, but there is a lot to like about its performance with respect to its price.
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post #26 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 03:30 AM
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I really think SVS is dropping the ball in the $900-$1000 price range.

I have to agree. SVS should really put out a sealed and ported model in the $1k range.

With regards to the VTF-15, it sounds fabulous and has loads of output so they're doing something right. It's a huge sub so the cabinet plays a major part in its performance.

There are plenty of options as it is on the market so I'm not in any rush to see the ID companies release new models. The VTF-15, PB-1000, SB-1000, LV12R, and others really aren't that old.
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post #27 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 04:17 AM
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I am skeptical about the driver too, but there is a lot to like about its performance with respect to its price.

Yes--I won't deny that the VTF15 delivers excellent performance, and Mr Ricci has demonstrated this conclusively. So, materials aside, it's certainly an overachiever. More to the point of the original post, there's not much chance that it will be revamped or replaced anytime very soon, since its existence is justified and people do buy it.

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post #28 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 04:20 AM
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I have to agree. SVS should really put out a sealed and ported model in the $1k range.

With regards to the VTF-15, it sounds fabulous and has loads of output so they're doing something right. It's a huge sub so the cabinet plays a major part in its performance.

There are plenty of options as it is on the market so I'm not in any rush to see the ID companies release new models. The VTF-15, PB-1000, SB-1000, LV12R, and others really aren't that old.

Yeah, what this guy said

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post #29 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 05:52 AM
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I would love to see SVS, or one of the majors come out with a nice dual PR offering or line. Not a micro, (ok maybe start/include micro) but something done geared towards us! I don’t know if the extra cost associated would be offset by the smaller enclosure in appealing to the everyday user though?? I do know size is a big factor. We are such a small 1% percentage of the true SW market (think of your friends and neighbors) that I dunno if any of the ID company's would think it feasible? That being that, I do see it starting to happen though> http://www.funkaudio.ca/18.3_Overview.html XXX http://www.funkaudio.ca/15.3_Overview.html I’ve noticed a few other lines now being offered with other company's also, not that a few haven't been out there for considerable time. In time I think we can all expect change from the sound of things, but like alluded to it’ll be well thought out and special attention needs to be calculated when considering the real SW market in it’s entirety. That’s not to say they don’t pay attention to us, but realistically we are a niche market. In the scheme of things, some company's will understandably just go for that. In a sense, a case can be made they try to work around each other to a degree imo.

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post #30 of 36 Old 11-03-2013, 09:08 AM
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Luke, your post honestly comes off as condescending and highly rude. Not welcome here.

Your eD example is completely non-sensical. Look at Epik, they only had two models and they took a dump as well. So touché.

Hey Blake: Try giving it another read - it's packed with good points and didn't appear to have the same tone that you picked up.

Epik had a variety of subwoofers before he went - or was forced - to two models.

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