Pressurizing Subwoofer feeling - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 11-08-2013, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone know a list of Subs that can punch your guts out all alone without the need of a second subwoofer in a large living room with no large open spaces?

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post #2 of 36 Old 11-08-2013, 11:59 PM
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It's a very open ended question. Anyway, JTR OS LFU would be my choice first choice any day.

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post #3 of 36 Old 11-09-2013, 02:31 AM
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^^ agreed..
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post #4 of 36 Old 11-09-2013, 03:54 AM
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How large is a large living room? What's your budget?
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post #5 of 36 Old 11-09-2013, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassHead92 View Post

Anyone know a list of Subs that can punch your guts out all alone without the need of a second subwoofer in a large living room with no large open spaces?
Punching your guts out is best accomplished by using at least two subs, for two reasons. One is that multiple subs smooth out room modes, for more even response throughout the room. The other is driver displacement, which is the main governing factor with regards to output. If you have one sub with a driver displacement of 1000cc, for instance, adding a second identical sub will give 6dB higher output. To get that same result with a single sub would require a driver with 2000cc displacement. The problem is that a sub with 2000cc of displacement may not cost twice what a 1000cc sub does, it may cost three to four times as much. Therefore from the standpoint of both room response and cost a pair of less powerful subs can beat a more powerful sub.
From a practical standpoint it boils down to what you have more of, money or floor space. If you don't have a place to put two subs, are willing to accept the uneven in room response of a single sub, and don't care about the cost, then go with one very expensive sub. Otherwise go with two or more less pricey subs. If your room is huge there's no reason to say you don't have anywhere to put a second sub.

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post #6 of 36 Old 11-10-2013, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

It's a very open ended question. Anyway, JTR OS LFU would be my choice first choice any day.

I've heard the OS..........................and the S2 jiggles your giblets more!!!!

But I must admit..................the OS does it cleaner!!! biggrin.gif
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post #7 of 36 Old 11-11-2013, 06:06 PM
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PSA Triax

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
2 - SVS SB13+'s (living room)
1 - SVS SB12-NSD (bedroom)
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post #8 of 36 Old 11-13-2013, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


Punching your guts out is best accomplished by using at least two subs, for two reasons. One is that multiple subs smooth out room modes, for more even response throughout the room. The other is driver displacement, which is the main governing factor with regards to output. If you have one sub with a driver displacement of 1000cc, for instance, adding a second identical sub will give 6dB higher output. To get that same result with a single sub would require a driver with 2000cc displacement. The problem is that a sub with 2000cc of displacement may not cost twice what a 1000cc sub does, it may cost three to four times as much. Therefore from the standpoint of both room response and cost a pair of less powerful subs can beat a more powerful sub.
From a practical standpoint it boils down to what you have more of, money or floor space. If you don't have a place to put two subs, are willing to accept the uneven in room response of a single sub, and don't care about the cost, then go with one very expensive sub. Otherwise go with two or more less pricey subs. If your room is huge there's no reason to say you don't have anywhere to put a second sub.

 

2,376 sq Ft living room I have space for 2 subs.... I would build DIY but of course in a apartment that's uncomfortable. My budget? no more than 1,200 even though I prefer getting something really good for a low price that can massage my face & other peoples face when they visit & hear/feel the bass.

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post #9 of 36 Old 11-13-2013, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post


I've heard the OS..........................and the S2 jiggles your giblets more!!!!

But I must admit..................the OS does it cleaner!!! biggrin.gif

 

 

I looked at the OS & S2, S2 looks nice but damn only if Beyonce was my wife........ You know the rest..... Lol these pockets are not on the S2 level.

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post #10 of 36 Old 11-14-2013, 08:04 PM
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Man.. I need to find a place where I can buy one of those Orbit Shifter LFU's for my next upgrade. Wow!
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post #11 of 36 Old 11-14-2013, 11:52 PM
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^^ direct is probably the only way...

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/orbit-shifter-lfu/
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post #12 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by the_abbot View Post

Man.. I need to find a place where I can buy one of those Orbit Shifter LFU's for my next upgrade. Wow!
The OS is a great subwoofer but, the watt reading on it is something like 4000/7200 for RMS/peak. Even a dedicated 20 amp circuit is not enough. What are people doing to remedy the problem? A 20 amp breaker will only do something in the neighborhood of 2200 watts.

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post #13 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by BassHead92 View Post

I would build DIY but of course in a apartment that's uncomfortable.
If you live in an apartment and the walls, floors and ceilings are less than a foot thick of solid concrete you can dismiss the idea of gut punching bass. What you'll get if you do is real gut punches, from your neighbors. eek.gif

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post #14 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

The OS is a great subwoofer but, the watt reading on it is something like 4000/7200 for RMS/peak. Even a dedicated 20 amp circuit is not enough. What are people doing to remedy the problem? A 20 amp breaker will only do something in the neighborhood of 2200 watts.

This is not correct. A circuit breaker can pass much more than its rated current for short periods of time. Do a google search on "circuit breaker trip curve" for examples. I know many in this forum are not normal users, but still not many would push an OS hard enough to trip a breaker. Especially when not doing extreme demos.
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post


If they're robust enough, amplifiers can pull extraordinarily high amounts of current from the wall, due to typical circuit breaker trip curve characteristics.
To allow for the very high currents inherent to motor start up, etc, circuit breakers will pass enormous amounts of current past their normal rated size. For example, a 20 amp circuit can pass 7-8 times the rated 20amp trip amount, .. for up to a second or more. It will allow up to 3x the rated amount for up to 10sec or so. And most importantly, the same 20amp circuit, can allow up to 1.5-2times the rated amount for a period extending as long as 30 seconds.

That's over 100amps for around 1-2 seconds, about 60amps for around 10 seconds, and the circuit will allow 30-40amps for as long as 30 seconds! From a 20a breaker.

This is why voltage drop, and ample current delivery for instantaneous peaks can be an issue. Up-size those amplifier/subwoofer circuits. Not the breaker size, upsize the wiring. As I illustrated above, the breaker isn't the limiting factor for our uses.
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post #15 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 07:20 AM
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I agree, apartments and monster subwoofers do not belong together. If you want an awesome pair of subs build two GH with the UXL drivers.
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post #16 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If you live in an apartment and the walls, floors and ceilings are less than a foot thick of solid concrete you can dismiss the idea of gut punching bass. What you'll get if you do is real gut punches, from your neighbors. eek.gif

Maybe the SubD or the isolation feet system is in order here. rolleyes.gifwink.gif
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post #17 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 10:45 AM
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Maybe the SubD or the isolation feet system is in order here. rolleyes.gifwink.gif
Only if he also spreads enough pixie dust about the room. tongue.gif
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post #18 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

This is not correct. A circuit breaker can pass much more than its rated current for short periods of time. Do a google search on "circuit breaker trip curve" for examples. I know many in this forum are not normal users, but still not many would push an OS hard enough to trip a breaker. Especially when not doing extreme demos.

I did not know that Ironhead 1230. Great info, thanks. The heavier the gauge wire in the wall is a great start to delivering the needed power.

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post #19 of 36 Old 11-15-2013, 09:48 PM
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Only if he also spreads enough pixie dust about the room. tongue.gif

Oh my gosh! I hear that’s even worse than MDF dust. stay away from pixie or related products with pixie claims

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post #20 of 36 Old 11-16-2013, 06:50 AM
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My dual Triax's will give you that.
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post #21 of 36 Old 11-16-2013, 01:22 PM
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It takes about 105-110 dBs to start pressurizing the room and feel the hair stand up. Good luck with that in an apartment! When I lived in an apartment I used a dual 8 inch sealed sub and still got complaints.
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post #22 of 36 Old 11-20-2013, 04:53 PM
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Strap a Buttkicker to your chest! I have a couple of dual 8" towers for mains that give that chest pressure feeling but ya, it's pretty loud. Measured 105dB with 115dB peaks.
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post #23 of 36 Old 11-22-2013, 09:29 PM
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Strap a Buttkicker to your chest! I have a couple of dual 8" towers for mains that give that chest pressure feeling but ya, it's pretty loud. Measured 105dB with 115dB peaks.
Ok I'll bite smile.gif

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post #24 of 36 Old 11-23-2013, 07:08 AM
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First, a caveat...I think this feel effect is probably accomplished at different SPL levels for everyone. My tolerance to bass and tactile feel is higher than most I do believe (but not as high as carp, pennynike1, popalock, and others) - so it might not take as much for you to feel like you've experienced bass that pressurizes - or it might take more for you...


In my experiences wooden floors allow subwoofers the ability to accomplish extreme tactile feel at much lower spl levels than concrete slab.

A small HT room or a lot of quality subs is the other method to approach this feeling.

The only two subs I've experienced the feeling of something I'd clearly define as pressure waves in a long list of subs auditioned are big horn subs when used in pairs. I define pressure waves as where it makes you almost feel dizzy, or slightly off balance, typically with the lower frequencies. It feels like your temples are compressing on the side of your head. Ive felt this twice now that I can recall. One was the orbit shifter pair at my 2012 meet and the second was the gjallarhorn pair last night at a local members house, d_c.

The orbit shifters made the pressure waves on my basement slab HT room at levels around high 130dB
The gjallarhorn made the pressure waves in a bit smaller room, on a suspended wooden floor HT room at lower spl levels, but nearfield and firing directly into the couch on movie clips like the server room scene in Pulse. I also felt it clearly when I put my head up to the mouth of the gjallarhorn on the Pulse clip at significant spl levels. I traditionally put my head next to high end drivers or boxes at some point or another to best witness what they are capable of. Putting your head that mouth of the horn on a gjallorhorn or orbit shifter at a decent SPL will almost make you feel like you went under water. At the lower spl levels we auditioned the gjallarhorn, the nearfield sub placement seemed key to make me feel the pressurized effect. At the louder volumes we auditioned the orbit shifter - the entire room was pressurized. I think both subs are plenty capable of reaching insane levels through the entire theater space, just the owner of the gjallarhorns was using more restraint during the demo session. You don't accomplish this pressurization easily in my subjective experience. Many top shelf subs I've heard are capable of the effect --- I have to assume, but the room likely needs to be smaller, the subs placed closer, or there be more subs altogether to experience the effect.

I guess what I'm saying is in all these experiences, I've only subjectively experienced the effect clearly twice.

Here is a list of notable systems where I have not expierienced the effect: (to give you an idea of what it takes)

Five Seaton Submersive HPs and four Epik Empires in a 6500 cubic foot room at counsils.
Three Seaton Submersive HPs in Gorilla83s room
Two JTR Captivators in many rooms
Two Seaton Submersive HPs in many rooms
One Orbit Shifter in carps room
Eight SI 18"s sealed in carps room
Eight AE 15"s in IB at desertdomes room
Four uxl-18s in huskeromahas room
Four SI 18"s in my room
Four Dayton 18" HOs in mrsmither's room
Two JTR S2 in dlbecks room
Two LMS-5400 sealed at gorilla83s room and tjhub's room.
A DTS-10 in nebrunners room
A Procella P18 and P10 setup in Randy Bessinger's room.
Pretty much all of the typically recommended subs on this forum in various configs...
Etc

All of the above subs sound awesome! And to volumes way louder than is comfortable listening, but in the above demos I subjectively didn't feel pressure waves as I would define them. Clothes shaking yes, pants flapping yes, tactile chest and body feel yes! --- pressure waves that make you slightly dizzy, feel like you are underwater, feel like your head is collapsing in? no...

Now I've heard others say some of the above subwoofers have felt like they pressurized a room to them - but they didn't make it to that level for me in the instances, rooms, and setups I've experienced them in. So your mileage may vary. I'll just point out that your typical $500 subwoofer is never going to pressurize anything but a broom closet - so take what you read from some of the folk on these boards with a grain of salt when they say they've pressurized their room with a BIC F12 or similar silliness.
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post #25 of 36 Old 01-05-2014, 02:38 PM
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bump for more input from others.

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post #26 of 36 Old 01-05-2014, 02:52 PM
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I second the JTR OS and S2 notion. If you have all the room in the world, maybe one or 2 or 3 or 4 of these biggrin.gif

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/tapped-horns/th-221/

These should give you that "feeling" you're after.
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post #27 of 36 Old 01-05-2014, 05:57 PM
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My room is 30ft by 18ft. With my first PSA Triax from 10 feet away while playing bass demanding song, I'd stay from 120-125dbs all day long if wanted. Now with 2 of these subs I'm at 125-129dbs and steady from center listening position. I have some video clips if you want to see them in action on my signature. I've since found some even stronger music demos but I haven't made the videos, they pretty much max out the SPL meter biggrin.gif
Movies and games are just insane. Whats the dimensions on the room?

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post #28 of 36 Old 01-05-2014, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

This is not correct. A circuit breaker can pass much more than its rated current for short periods of time. Do a google search on "circuit breaker trip curve" for examples. I know many in this forum are not normal users, but still not many would push an OS hard enough to trip a breaker. Especially when not doing extreme demos.

Your right, I'm running 8,000 watts rms off a single 15 amp circuit and I max out the subs all the time without tripping the breaker, and that's just the subs. I still have the AVR, all my audio gear and everything else in the basement running of the same circuit.

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post #29 of 36 Old 01-05-2014, 07:34 PM
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I got 4 S2's and I have lots.. I mean LOTS of pressurization in my room. I don't know it's a good thing some times. Because the pressure is so intense I actually feel pressure on my ear drums.eek.gif Like my head is going to explode! Then the wifey comes out and taps me on the shoulders and says Ok hon, really, that is a little too much. Someones gonna end up calling the cops. Now, she was outside, at the back doing her garden stuffs. And the HT room is at the other end of the house upstairs. eek.gif At that time I was watching TIH. Yup, you guessed it, the sonic cannon scene. I was at -9 on the MV. But I think it could be the house curve that ive made. Kind of aggressive. Well whatever, these Caps put out clean bass at very high dbs. Jeff really know what he's doing with his subs. Especially since he does the Pro Audio side too. And we all know the Pro Audio is all about clean output at very high dbs. Now that's gotta tell you something... Man I need to upgrade my LCR and surrounds. They just can't keep up!wink.gif

My house curve measured at 82 dbs
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post #30 of 36 Old 01-05-2014, 07:39 PM
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heres my recent graph of my 2 subs at -20dbs on the AVR volume.


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Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
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