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post #1 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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After reading the sticky (which I have open in a separate tab as I write this), I decided to have a go at it, since reading other sub-woofer threads doesn't really seem to get me where I need to be (which is making a decision). I think I'm as bad as "she who must be pleased" when she's looking for shoes, about this.

 

A little background:

 

Just bought my first house, I'm 28 (read: not been in my industry for 20+ years as upper level management), which has left me to build a little bit less pricey for my first component system.

 

I have an Onkyo TX-NR616 that I picked up at a huge discount since the "626" came out this year (which appears to be a 515 with a built in WiFi NIC and bluetooth ear-bud receiver, whatever I digress).

 

To go a long with that I purchased (but have yet to receive) 2x Polk TSX550Ts, 2x Polk TSX220Bs (for the rears), and a Polk TSX250C Center (all dark cherry veneer). Don't judge me, obviously my system isn't full McIntosh with custom towers. I honestly listened to the ML Motion 40s (I even tried their more entry level Electrostats), Klipsch Reference RF-82 IIs, and some other Bowers and Wilkins set-up, it came down to I didn't like B&W or Klipsch because of the metallic tweeter, and I couldn't hear enough of a difference between the Polks and the MLs to justify the $1200 price difference (maybe I'm deaf after being in the Navy? industrial noise environment and all that).

 

Anyway, the ineffable one who must be pleased, is a huge bass-head and I am to a lesser extent, but we both like similar types of music (She's more Crystal Method/BT, I'm a little more Boards of Canada/Netsky). This leads me to the sub-woofer advice.

 

I have yet to purchase a sub (or subs) to fill-out the below 80hz range of my system.

 

These are the parameters I'm dealing with:

 

Budget: I'd like to keep it under $1000, but there might be some wiggle room, especially since she might actually be persuaded to contribute (she's actually been a lot more into this than I thought she would be, but like I said, she's a bass head).

 

Room: The room is 11x16 w/ standard 8ft. ceiling height (yielding 1408 cu. ft.), however, that's just the subjective partition, since it's part of the great room (open floor plan with dining/kitchen/living room in a sort of L-tetris-block-shape), the 11 ft side is actually 31 ft. on one side, with a 12 ft. opening on the right hand side of the room.

 

Size requirements: Things being what they are, I don't know that I can fit an infinite baffle sub-woofer enclosure in the living room, but since it is going to be a main fixture, I think I can fit something a long the lines of an 18" driver with ported enclosure (if that makes sense), or two smaller somethings.

 

Listening habits: This one is tough, since it will vary, most of the time I'll probably using it as a soundscape when I'm working on projects or doing research/homework at home, with elevated levels for movie watching and music listening for entertaining. She also teaches dance and sometimes holds private lessons and those can be elevated levels to emphasize the beat for inexperienced dancers.

 

Primary uses: I'll probably be using very frequently for home-theater (once a week or more) but would favor music reproduction (since it will be used for that almost daily). But, again, it would be bass heavy music (think Electronic Dance/IDM/Drum n Bass/Indie-Electro-Rock-type stuff).

 

Appearance: not as selective about this, but would either prefer a cherry or wood grain finish enclosure, or just plain black.

 

Timeframe: Hopefully not months and months in the future, but my other than my receiver and flat-panel wall-mount everything is still waiting to be delivered (the floorstands are back-ordered, because where I bought them from had some kind of blow-out deal on them, $375 ea. when every other dealer was asking $500), earliest would be first week of December for the center, bookshelves and the TV.

 

My idea-- which I was hoping to get some feedback on, as well as maybe some other solutions I hadn't thought of-- was to get two different sub-woofers, maybe something like a BIC Acoustech PL-200 or SVS PB-1000, with a 10" or 12" driver, then get something with a bigger driver (like the 15" Dayton Audio titanic kit). Because the one thing I considered about the SVS, as amazing as the response seems to be looking at the posted graphs, at 10" it probably wouldn't deliver that tingly bass she likes to feel in her-- well, you know. The idea was to maybe set the two woofers to reproduce different parts of the bass spectrum, the more musical stuff above 30hz for the smaller sub and the rest on the larger sub. Several questions came to mind, though, when I thought about this, can I obtain or make a high-pass for the smaller sub? Would this even work? And, since the response seems pretty impressive on the SVS, it would seem like I'd be spending even more money trying to find an even larger driver that could maintain that reproduction solely in the lowest end of the spectrum, i.e. 30hz~18hz. Another problem seems to be (for me, anyway, maybe someone has a resource for this) finding published graphs for different subs (you'd think the manufacturers would be keen on this as a point of marketing, duh).

 

The other thought I had was, maybe the PL-200 would work fine, if I set the cut-off at say, 30hz, since I guess worrying about accurate reproduction at 20hz is pointless if my goal is to avoid that frequency being sent to that driver in the first place.

 

Am I going about this the wrong way? Or, would my room gain  at that size be high enough that I could get that kind of "oomph" out of a 10" or 12" driver (or by buying two of the same model)?

 

I'm obviously driving myself crazy and over-thinking this, I guess. :/

 

If anyone has any recommendations, I'm not stuck on a particular brand, I just wasn't impressed with the Polk subs for their price-point. I do like the flat, dry sound of their other speakers, though.

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post #2 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 04:11 PM
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First of all, I would not mix sub types like what you are considering. I would only do that once you have your in-room response established. If at that point you feel that you need more mid bass, I would go for Hsu MBM-12 to beef it up. It sounds like you will want big mid and upper bass. You might consider a pair of Premier Acoustic PA-150s, the output in those regions is enormous considering the price. Make Acoustic Sound Designs an offer and you can get those for much less than $1k. I think the Dayton Titanic 4 will get you higher quality bass though, but I don't think it will quite reach the loudness of two PA-150s. For a single $1k sub with sound quality a priority but with plenty of output, I would go for the Titanic 4. You might also consider a Hsu VTF15h, you can switch it to exchange deep bass for louder mid bass at will, as the VT in the name stands for 'variable tuning'.
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post #3 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 06:37 PM
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Sounds like you are looking for a similar sub that I was...attached are the one's I considered. Went with the XS30 and am very happy with it.

 

. sub1.doc 35k .doc file

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File Type: doc sub1.doc (34.5 KB, 25 views)
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post #4 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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ShadyJ and downsc123,

 

Thank you for the input, I really appreciate it.

 

I'm going to poke around on that link you posted "data-bass." So, the titanic mk4 is a decent kit? It's a sealed system, though right? I hadn't seen any data on it, so I wasn't sure, but a 15" driver with a half-way decent 1000w amp, I don't see how it couldn't at least compete, that should be plenty of power, even for that size driver, unless it's made of cast-iron. I'm concerned with minutia like voice-coil size vs. surface area, and charts and graphs, something manufacturers don't seem to like publishing.

 

Maybe I gave the impression that I'm a lot more budget minded than I am, I've spent a few grand already for speakers, receiver, TV, cables, BD player, what's another 700~1000 for a good component (I was prepared to spend that on my AVR, but found the one I liked on clearance, same thing with the speakers). I figure if I find a good one, it's the one thing I'll keep if I decide to upgrade down the road.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking I should get the speakers set-up first and see what's missing. The frustrating thing is basically having a "hole" in my system until I get a sub. I guess I could always buy an off-the-shelf to get me by, but that just seems wasteful.

 

I was planning to Bi-amp the front channels-- Polk's specs on the TSX550 have me a little confused, it says recommended power 20-300w, should I be taking that as at-least 20w RMS, but no more than 300w peak power? In which case, I might come close to blowing them should I ever encroach upon the peak of the two amps (100w RMS/channel, which if I'm understanding into an 8ohm load it could be expected to reach close to 200w/channel, peak, probably only for a dozen or so milliseconds, but still).

 

Thanks again guys.

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post #5 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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downsc123,

 

What finally sold you on the XS30?

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post #6 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 09:22 PM
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After what you describe, 2 pa-150s sound right up your alley.  No matter what you choose, make the wife happy and blast "Under the Influence" by the chemical brothers, and have fun straightening up your picture frames and picking stuff off the floor :)

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post #7 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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So it looks like around $750 is the magic number.

 

So far, I've got two recommendations for a dual PA-150 set-up, I took a look at the PB12-NSD, it looks like it's a contender for what I'm looking for and the Dayton Audio 15" Titanic Mk4. All three of these are in the neighborhood of $750. Reading up on the Hsu VTF15H, it seems VERY nice, but it's $1500 for the cherry enclosure, looks BA, though. Might be out of my price-point at this juncture.

 

I've got details on the PA-150 and the PB12-NSD, but nothing on the Dayton Titanic, yet. I want to look into that one further before I make my decision. If the Titanic can get me more accuracy, I might go that route.

 

Thanks again for all of the information, I knew AVS would be a good source for advice.

 

EDIT: Whoops, I meant the XS30 is $1500 for the Cherry. The Hsu might be a good option, but the SVS or Dayton Audio might be more like what I am looking for (and I have money left over for Blu-Rays to watch). But, having two 15" subs (as in the case of the PA-150) would just be rad.

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post #8 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71Datsun240Z View Post

I'm going to poke around on that link you posted "data-bass." So, the titanic mk4 is a decent kit? It's a sealed system, though right? I hadn't seen any data on it, so I wasn't sure, but a 15" driver with a half-way decent 1000w amp, I don't see how it couldn't at least compete, that should be plenty of power, even for that size driver, unless it's made of cast-iron. I'm concerned with minutia like voice-coil size vs. surface area, and charts and graphs, something manufacturers don't seem to like publishing.

The Titanic 4 would be a very good kit. Unfortunately it doesn't look like it will be in stock until late December. The fully assembled version is available now, but it is $150 more. There isn't any comprehensive measurement set for it that I know of, but the full T/S parameters are available. If you like details, there is more available on the Titanic 4 than most other commercial subwoofers that you can buy. It is a great sub, no doubt, but there is only so much a sealed 15" can do. You can expect nice clean solid bass from it, but you won't get the kind of SPLs in a room like what you get in a car cabin with a high excursion, high powered 15". Of course, you will need to spend more than $1k to get that kind of effect.
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post #9 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71Datsun240Z View Post

So it looks like around $750 is the magic number.

So far, I've got two recommendations for a dual PA-150 set-up, I took a look at the PB12-NSD, it looks like it's a contender for what I'm looking for and the Dayton Audio 15" Titanic Mk4. All three of these are in the neighborhood of $750. Reading up on the Hsu VTF15H, it seems VERY nice, but it's $1500 for the cherry enclosure, looks BA, though. Might be out of my price-point at this juncture.

I've got details on the PA-150 and the PB12-NSD, but nothing on the Dayton Titanic, yet. I want to look into that one further before I make my decision. If the Titanic can get me more accuracy, I might go that route.

Thanks again for all of the information, I knew AVS would be a good source for advice.

EDIT: Whoops, I meant the XS30 is $1500 for the Cherry. The Hsu might be a good option, but the SVS or Dayton Audio might be more like what I am looking for (and I have money left over for Blu-Rays to watch). But, having two 15" subs (as in the case of the PA-150) would just be rad.

The PB12 might not be what you are looking for. It's mid bass output is not in the league of any of the other subs being discussed, although it does play very cleanly and evenly down to 20 Hz.
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post #10 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71Datsun240Z View Post
 

So it looks like around $750 is the magic number.

 

So far, I've got two recommendations for a dual PA-150 set-up, I took a look at the PB12-NSD, it looks like it's a contender for what I'm looking for and the Dayton Audio 15" Titanic Mk4. All three of these are in the neighborhood of $750. Reading up on the Hsu VTF15H, it seems VERY nice, but it's $1500 for the cherry enclosure, looks BA, though. Might be out of my price-point at this juncture.

 

I've got details on the PA-150 and the PB12-NSD, but nothing on the Dayton Titanic, yet. I want to look into that one further before I make my decision. If the Titanic can get me more accuracy, I might go that route.

 

Thanks again for all of the information, I knew AVS would be a good source for advice.

 

EDIT: Whoops, I meant the XS30 is $1500 for the Cherry. The Hsu might be a good option, but the SVS or Dayton Audio might be more like what I am looking for (and I have money left over for Blu-Rays to watch). But, having two 15" subs (as in the case of the PA-150) would just be rad.


What you have is a huge problem with is cubic feet.  You actually have a large room, even though your listening area is smallish.  With dual subs, you get a larger sweet spot, that should encompass your main listening area.  With $1000 dollars will you fill you're whole living room/kitchen/dining? Probably not.  What I gather you want is the fattest bass in the most area, for the least dollars.  The pa-150's have one of the highest outputs per dollar, and with 2 you will have a very large sweet spot with alot of fill in the rest of your listening area.  With your budget, it is really impossible to fill your whole space with chest shaking bass, and subsonic frequencies.  It just won't happen for $1000.

 

You now need to pick what area you're willing to sacrifice in.  You can buy a deeper sub, that will hit subsonic frequencies and rumble a small area perfectly.  You can also sacrifice low end for additional output.  Nobody can decide what's more important than you.  With your budget, you can't have it all, but you can have one or the other, or a little of both.  It seems to me that you don't really need the lowest end, which is why I recommend dual pa-150's.  If you really want the best of both worlds, I would say buy a xs-30 or the hsu now, and if it really doesn't sastify now you can always pick up a second later.  Personally, I just spent 500$ on a sub, while I save for 2 hsu-vtf3 subs later.

 

I talked to a great member of this forum, Jim Wilson.  I don't know if he has the time to help you, but I would send him a p.m.  He has taught me alot about subwoofers lately, and I think he could provide the best advice to you.  Really a great guy, with alot of information and knowledge.

 

Sandman

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post #11 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 05:24 PM
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^^ what he said. I was done to the XS30 and the HSU VTF 15H and what made the final decision was the fact that the XS30 was a bit smaller enclosure which just fits into hole I have for it in my living room. They have very similar output numbers though and I am sure you will be happy with either (there are also a bunch of comparison threads on them).

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post #12 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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My budget just got a little bit bigger. One of the main reasons I was on a tight budget was I just had to remodel my master bathroom due to a leak through the sub-floor, yes-- not the drain, not the valve, not the toilet; the sub-floor. The sellers hired some punk kid to install a tile walk-in shower, he didn't bother sealing anything or installing a pan/PVC membrane or even hot-mop. I just got word from my real-estate agent that the sellers will be reimbursing me for my out-pocket costs (I had to file an insurance claim to fix it)-- amazing how cooperative people get when lawyers and insurance companies are involved.

 

I can probably swing $1500~$1800. I was looking at the Hsu ULS-15, but I think I'm going to run into the problem of it being a sealed system like you mention. I don't know, with my new budget I was considering two of the punchier models. That would mean I could grab two of the VTF-15Hs. I think I'm going to with a Hsu, no matter which route I take, after doing so much reading.

 

My other problem is trying to figure out where I have a "corner" to place a sub, since both 90* corners have doors on the perpendicular wall (one is the entry to the house). Ugh. I guess when it comes time for remodel, I can have the door frame moved over more toward the middle of the room and put a snap door on the closet. In the mean time, would it be a bad idea to maybe put them in opposing positions (i.e. front of room left of left channel tower, back of room right of right end-table type thing)?

 

EDIT: Or, maybe two VTF-3 MK4s, since I forgot to account for shipping costs.

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post #13 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 06:02 PM
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if you can, place the sub where it sounds the best from your listening position (e.g., do a sub crawl). You will be amazed how much more output you get from a properly placed sub and how much you will loose by a bad placement.

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post #14 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 06:07 PM
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It's hard to say which the best place for the subs are without measuring the results. I would say try as many spots as you can, and keep them where they sound the best. An SPL meter can help you determine the best places, along with the subwoofer crawl method of placement selection.
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post #15 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm... yeah, there's only about three spots I can think of that they would fit without being impeded by furniture. Facing the listening area from the front, or facing perpendicular on one side to the listening area, or in opposition front/rear. But, I figure with two more powerful subs I would hopefully get some play in placement, at least.

 

One thing I'm trying to get a handle on is, does the enclosure design have an impact on dispersion, or is it circular regardless due to the frequency spectrum?

 

I was planning on doing the sub-crawl, though, doesn't make sense to spend that much money on equipment and not make at least some attempt to place it somewhere that it would work. Would something like this work: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12680845 ?

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post #16 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 07:53 PM
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2 of the vtf-3's should get you fantastic bass, low and loud.  I don't think you would find any complaints.  If you want to break the budget and get a higher end model you will only get better.  But for a goofy room and $1519 after shipping, I think that's gonna be tough to beat.  Not gonna lie, I am biased as that exact setup is what I'm saving for right now.

 

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post #17 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I am going to be in Irvine the week of Thanksgiving on my way to San Francisco, I wonder if I could pick them up from them directly and save on shipping. I'll have to call them to see if pick-up is an option, for $200 S/H, it'd be cheaper in gas for me to drive up to their offices and pick it up than to pay shipping and risk damage-- even if I had to make a special trip up there.

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post #18 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 08:17 PM
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Monday through Friday 9-5.  You could take the money you saved on shipping and upgrade to dual vtf-15's.  Still in your $1800 budget and even more oomph.

 

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post #19 of 35 Old 11-16-2013, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like to thank you guys for your help.

 

I haven't picked it up, yet, but I decided to go with a ULS-15, after listening to several ported and sealed subs, I decided a sealed would give me the low extension I'm looking for. It also has the distinct advantage of placement options due to its smaller size and it comes with a wireless connection.

 

I also figured that the ULS, while more expensive than the other options I was considering, might be a good dual set-up if I get it home and fire it up and still feel like something is missing.

 

The VTF-15H does look like a mean sub, though, just not sure about placement.

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post #20 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 07:35 PM
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Let us know how it sounds!

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post #21 of 35 Old 11-18-2013, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I was actually about to call them, today, to see if they had anything ready to go.

 

My budget took a hit this afternoon when I opened up the mail and received my supplemental property tax bill from the county.

 

I still don't have my other speakers, yet. Though I did get word that they'll get the floor-stands in while I'm out of town next week. I keep thinking that maybe I should try for a DIY sub like the Dayton Audio Reference series in either a 15 or 18 inch driver. I like putting things together, too.

 

I like the Hsu, because it was a 600W BASH amp driving a 15" woofer, and the cabinet looks really nice, and it's only about 18x19x20 with grille/amp. However, I thought about the Dayton Audio Reference HO 15, because the SPA-1000 amp has good reviews and the output seems comparable. But, how does Hsu get that low with a sealed enclosure? Can I replicate that with the Dayton?

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post #22 of 35 Old 11-18-2013, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71Datsun240Z View Post

I was actually about to call them, today, to see if they had anything ready to go.

My budget took a hit this afternoon when I opened up the mail and received my supplemental property tax bill from the county.

I still don't have my other speakers, yet. Though I did get word that they'll get the floor-stands in while I'm out of town next week. I keep thinking that maybe I should try for a DIY sub like the Dayton Audio Reference series in either a 15 or 18 inch driver. I like putting things together, too.

I like the Hsu, because it was a 600W BASH amp driving a 15" woofer, and the cabinet looks really nice, and it's only about 18x19x20 with grille/amp. However, I thought about the Dayton Audio Reference HO 15, because the SPA-1000 amp has good reviews and the output seems comparable. But, how does Hsu get that low with a sealed enclosure? Can I replicate that with the Dayton?

The Hsu get that low because of equalization. It can get low by shaving off upper bass and boosting low bass. That can be reduced by the ULF trim knob. It does not have the deep bass output of a ported sub, so do not mistake it for that. You can't quite replicate its behavior with the SPA1000 because the Dayton amp has a non-defeatable 18 hz rumble filter.
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post #23 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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So, I guess maybe I'm looking more for the music side, than the HT side. As, I'm liking the sound more and more of the sealed enclosures.

 

The problem is that I've been mostly "auditioning" these subs with music, as that seems to be what most places will play, vice a hollywood movie with the LFE track cranked to "11."

 

So, basically, I'm looking for a subwoofer(s) that will fill out the sound for music but not sound like complete crap for LFE, doesn't have to be 120dB at 8hz.

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post #24 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 09:27 PM
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Both the Dayton and ULS-15 will get you some bass at 20 Hz, but not a tremendous amount. Below that the ULS will still have some output but the Dayton won't. On the flipside of that the ULS can be overdriven at very deep frequencies if pushed hard enough, which is something that is not possible with the Dayton. You might think about the VTF4 mk4 as well. It doesn't quite have as clean of a sound as the ULS-15, but it is still very good, and it will play deep frequencies with more authority than the ULS or Dayton.
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Is there another plate amp that I could drive the Dayton with? Or, is it difficult to find commercially available plate amps? I get what you're saying about the 18hz filter.

 

Hmm, so again, back to ported subs. Are the SVS 12s decent? Because for the price of the ULS, I could get two ported SVS PB12s, and the general consensus is 2x12"s > 1x15". Or is that a marketing gimmick to push cheap subs in bulk?

 

The math seems sound, assuming that the 12s are at least as sensitive as the 15s the result of 2PiR^2 = 2Pi(6)^2 = 2Pi(36) = 6.28...(36) = (226.2) X 2 = 452.4^2 surface area, whereas, 2Pi(7.5)2 = 2Pi(56.25) = 353.4 in^2 surface area, which means that the dual twelves are moving roughly 1.5 times the volume of air, but that's another assumption, that overall displacement SA x Stroke length is a constant. Hrmm... many variables to consider.

 

As a hot-rodder I've preferred the engines that are oversquare for performance, but preferred the undersquare engines for their sound and baseline torque feel. I suppose subwoofers are not all that different.

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post #26 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71Datsun240Z View Post

Is there another plate amp that I could drive the Dayton with? Or, is it difficult to find commercially available plate amps? I get what you're saying about the 18hz filter.

Hmm, so again, back to ported subs. Are the SVS 12s decent? Because for the price of the ULS, I could get two ported SVS PB12s, and the general consensus is 2x12"s > 1x15". Or is that a marketing gimmick to push cheap subs in bulk?

The math seems sound, assuming that the 12s are at least as sensitive as the 15s the result of 2PiR^2 = 2Pi(6)^2 = 2Pi(36) = 6.28...(36) = (226.2) X 2 = 452.4^2 surface area, whereas, 2Pi(7.5)2 = 2Pi(56.25) = 353.4 in^2 surface area, which means that the dual twelves are moving roughly 1.5 times the volume of air, but that's another assumption, that overall displacement SA x Stroke length is a constant. Hrmm... many variables to consider.

As a hot-rodder I've preferred the engines that are oversquare for performance, but preferred the undersquare engines for their sound and baseline torque feel. I suppose subwoofers are not all that different.

The SVS PB12-NSD receives the Audioholics Bassoholic Large Room rating, which means that this sub is recommended as maintaining adequate headroom in rooms or spaces of between 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet and/or for users who usually listen at moderate to high volume levels. For further information in how we make these recommendations see the full article here.

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/pb12-nsd
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post #27 of 35 Old 11-20-2013, 02:32 AM
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You can't quite replicate its behavior with the SPA1000 because the Dayton amp has a non-defeatable 18 hz rumble filter.

Not really what one wants to use the PEQ for but +3dB at 18 takes care of the issue.

If I were looking for one or a couple of subs I would be looking at these which should have a transferable warranty. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/classifieds-speakers-subwoofers/67341-svs-pc-12-one-pair.html

Klipsch RB-75
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Klipsch RB-35
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post #28 of 35 Old 11-20-2013, 08:45 AM
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Wow, a pair of PC12 Pluses for 1250, that is a spectacular deal. I would jump on that. The NSDs do not impress me that much, if you want loud I would not bother. They are very clean and linear though. The Pluses are far better. The deal Steve linked to is very good.

Also, regarding the surface area of woofers, it is not as simple as 2PiR^2. The surface area isn't always as neat as straight 12" or 15", you need the parameter called SD, since cones with steeper angles will have more surface area. You also need to consider the maximum linear excursion or 'throw' of the woofer, called xmax. Combining the xmax with the cone surface area gives you a parameter called the VD, this is the maximum volume displacement. Since all a woofer is doing is displacing air, this should indicate how loud a driver can get. But wait, there's more! In subs with passive radiators you have to add the radiator VD as well. In ported subs you have to add the port's acoustic output too, which will be substantial at around 20 Hz. There are also other sub designs with different factors governing their loudness capability. Loudness isn't the only metric by which you should judge subs either, there is distortion, compression, overhang and decay, extension in both lower and upper frequencies, and so on.
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post #29 of 35 Old 11-20-2013, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Shady,

 

That's what I meant by stroke length, sorry mechanical term, otherwise known as piston travel, like what they call a driver's maximum excursion. And, yes, the angle of the "cone" shape would change its surface area but I was trying to stay away from doing 3D Euclidean geometry in my head. You make a good point, though.

 

I guess I'm looking for something that's going to reproduce accurately over something that'll be "loud." One reason I thought about a single sub solution like the ULS-15 or the Dayton Audio RS15 or 18.

 

So, the thoughts that went through my mind on this subject today were:

 

Does the SA-1000 (the tabletop/rack-mount version of the SPA-1000) have that same 18hz subsonic filter (from what I was reading it sounds like it might be defeatable or turned off by a switch)? I know it has the PEQ, but it's >=30hz only, I believe. Would I be better off with something like the 500W BASH?

 

Is subsonic bass extension even really that important, i.e. do a lot of movies have LFE tracks filled with sub-20hz frequencies?

 

Would I get any room gain effects at all, supposing I was using a sealed 15" or 18" driven in the neighborhood of 1000W (the sensitivity of the ones I've looked at were 87~89.5dB 1w/1m)? I just broke-out the measuring tape, I was mistaken, internal measurements for the listening area is 15x9.5x8, with the opening on one side at 11.75ft, ad it's only 25 ft. on one side, not 31, the external wall I measured was 31 ft, but forgot to subtract walk-in utility closet.

 

Due to my budget constraints and the fact that I've been diving through a lot of DIY stuff as a result of this thread (wishing that maybe instead of the Polks I had got a set of those waveguide floor-stands with the 12" or 15" mid/full-range drivers), I think I want to build one. I'm probably going to get a flat-pack box and veneer it. Not sure which box, driver or amp, though.

 

I feel like I've become pedantic about this, already.

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I don't know if the rack version of the 1000 has that filter. It's worth shooting Dayton a quick email with that question though, they will respond promptly. I don't know if the BASH would be better, I wouldn't think so from a sound quality perspective, I think they would be equal in that respect.

Some movies have material below 20 Hz, not all. Here's the thing, a single one of any of these subs is unlikely to give you sensible output at those frequencies. For subsonic frequencies to be perceivable, you need a lot of SPL. I think its better to concentrate on decent on good bass from the 20s on up in a limited budget. The 20s are still very deep bass, 20 hz is nearly the threshold of the limits of deep bass perception.

As for room gain, its hard to tell. You will have to measure the bass in there, sorry, you'll have to find out the hard way. I wouldn't trust anyone who tells you otherwise.

If you can go DIY, I encourage you to do so, the bang-for-the-buck is so much better there. The SEOS kits you are referring to you will be far better than the Polks, sell the Polks and go for SEOS. Also take a look at Pi kits, specifically Pi Threes and Fours with upgraded woofers, those will be on the level of SEOS.

I should add that if you do go SEOS or Pi, you will need some heavy duty subs that can keep up with those speakers. I would go for at least two 18"s in that direction, maybe Stereo Integrity or Dayton HO. Make sure they have plenty of juice. That will hike up your budget a bit but it is doable for not a whole lot more than $1k. I am thinking $1.3k maybe, two drivers, two flat packs, a 3 kW iNuke amp, some damping, primer, paint, feet, binding posts, mounting hardware, that will do the trick.
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