Which sub(s) to fill my space? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 68 Old 11-25-2013, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm moving to a new home and setting up a new HT. The room the HT will be in is big (see diagram) and I want to equip it accordingly. I had originally planned on doing a Hsu VTF15H, but the more I read, I wonder if I need more than one sub?

What would you recommend?
- 1 VTF15H
- 2 VTF15H's
- 3 VTF3- MK4's (on sale and about the same price as 2 VTF15H's)
- 3 LFM-1 EX (on sale now)
- other suggestions?

Thanks in advance; I want to do this right the first time!

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post #2 of 68 Old 11-25-2013, 08:47 PM
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Reality check............1) that is a gigantic room 2) You need at least 3 subs of the likes of FV15HP 3) very difficult room for HT purpose.

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post #3 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 05:15 AM
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Germ,

I am looking to fill about the same amount of space as you are as well. In addition to those you mentioned, I would also look at Rythmik FV15HP or multiple SVS's. I am actually considering dual Rythmik's, but that seems like it might be out of your budget, based on what you have listed.
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post #4 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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fr8doggr,

Thanks for your tip! I had looked at the Rythmik subs as well. I'm kind of hoping there is some amazing Black Friday deal that pops up and makes the choice obvious for me! Not sure if the Rythmik subs ever go on sale? If you come across any great deals or other options, please let me know!
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post #5 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 05:34 AM
 
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Make your choice based on budget, WAF and emotionally, what do you really want out of the deal?

As stated earlier by others, big rooms need lots of subwoofage to get a person where they "really" want to go. In truth, there isn't a good auto analogy because from the beginning, car purchases are understood to be tempered by realistic budgets. We all want the hot car and some can afford the hot car but for the rest of us mortals, we're resigned to just wanting and we're strangely okay with this point. On the other hand, subwoofer purchases are more enigmatic and first, our unknown choice is based on emotion (I want performance) and second, our decision is based on budget; that's all I get for a thousand dollars?! eek.gif Emotionally, we're unable to accept, for our budget, we can't get anything worth a poop.

And yes, this "fact" inevitably leads to disappointment. Whoa! That totally blows dude.....and you paid a thousand dollars? eek.gif

Sooooo, the first thing to do is to decide what your realistic expectations are and then go about "realistically" finding solutions to these emotional expectations. Ya can't dodge the cost factor but you can work on the disappointment factor once one realistically wraps their think around price/performance.

Note how I intentionally didn't mention price or selection?

With the above ramblings in mind, what do you want out of your subwoofer purchase? How deep into the rabbit hole are you willing to go to get what you want?




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post #6 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 06:15 AM
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Germ,

In my short time researching subs, I have found that the regulars posting on here are extremely helpful. I have learned a ton reading all these threads. You sound like me, in that you want to make one purchase now, and enjoy it for years without upgrading in the future. I have decided to increase my budget to get it right the first time, rather than buying something cheaper, and regretting it later. If budget is a factor, you may want to choose a single, better, more expensive sub now and buy a second later. The Outlaws are on sale now, but I found the reviews to be just "ok" vs the outstanding reviews given to the other subs regularly mentioned on this forum. I am talking to Hsu, SVS, PSA, and Rythmik this week with my detailed specs to zero in what is best for me. As far as other sales, most of the ID companies seem to offer a 10% discount on the second sub when you buy two.
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post #7 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 06:21 AM
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What is your budget???

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post #8 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'd like to stay around $3500 for sub, speakers, and receiver if possible. I'd rather pay a bit more though if it is going to make a huge difference (i.e. 2 subs v. 1).
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post #9 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 08:14 AM
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Ok well you need a minimum of 2 subs. I would strongly recommend 2 PSA XV30f's for $2,658. Or 2 XV-15's as a minimum for $1,518.

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post #10 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 08:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germ79 View Post

Well, I'd like to stay around $3500 for sub, speakers, and receiver if possible. I'd rather pay a bit more though if it is going to make a huge difference (i.e. 2 subs v. 1).

Here's budget for you. Spend about a thousand dollars to get up and running. Go to Costco and pick up a SONY HTiB. Now, seriously, as you're able, start upgrading your system. Maybe, start with a killer AVR and some cheap azzzzz speakers. Later, add a killer, room filling subwoofer sound reproduction system and later still, start upgrading the speaker system. Consider the start-up system, to be a throwaway system.

Why would I suggest the above, starting at the top, unless one is a start-up CEO that just went public, more than likely you're a fiscal mortal like the rest of us and can't afford, in the beginning, to buy an outright, kickbutt system. With that in mind, start with a basic thousand dollar system and as you're able, add an upgrade or two each year. The reason for buying a basic system, is so you have something up-n-running to listen to.

Over the last year-and-a-half, we upgraded the flat screen, the AVR and center channel. I learned about subwoofers, room measuring and added an Anti-Mode 8033S II to aid with EQ'g the subwoofers. In two or three weeks, we'll add a pair of upgraded subwoofers. Maybe we'll add a third subwoofer. Time will tell. Later, in the near future, there will be an upgrade to our current AVR. The point, start with a basic system and as able, add upgrades. No reason to do everything in one pop and the live with dissatisfaction for eternity. It helps to see it as a hobby as opposed to a destination.

Buy cheaply and upgrade to your future. biggrin.gif

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post #11 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germ79 View Post

Well, I'd like to stay around $3500 for sub, speakers, and receiver if possible. I'd rather pay a bit more though if it is going to make a huge difference (i.e. 2 subs v. 1).

For the room your size; not a chance!!!! I'd keep $3500 for subs alone. That is not to say um stupid enough to waste huge money on subs; it's the requirement for a room as gigantic as yours.

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post #12 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 11:17 AM
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My space is just about the same as your (~4800 cubic feet) and 4 PSA XS15s is what it took for me to be (mostly) satisfied. smile.gif

Dual XS30s would do it too....but like braveheart says, you don't stand a chance of meeting your budget and getting great bass, just not gonna happen in a space that large. Any chance you could build a wall directly behind the couch? wink.gif

If you must stick to that budget, I would suggest you buy the best sub you can afford and put it directly behind the couch...nearfield placement is the only way your going to get decent bass at the MLP without multiple subs.

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post #13 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 11:20 AM
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nearfield placement is the only way your going to get decent bass at the MLP without multiple subs.

Only if near-field placement around MLP isn't a null itself.

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post #14 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

My space is just about the same as your (~4800 cubic feet) and 4 PSA XS15s is what it took for me to be (mostly) satisfied. smile.gif

Dual XS30s would do it too....but like braveheart says, you don't stand a chance of meeting your budget and getting great bass, just not gonna happen in a space that large. Any chance you could build a wall directly behind the couch? wink.gif

If you must stick to that budget, I would suggest you buy the best sub you can afford and put it directly behind the couch...nearfield placement is the only way your going to get decent bass at the MLP without multiple subs.

Alan, I'm curious why you recommend the sealed subs in such a massive space. Not arguing with you, just curious.

 

In my experience I have always been directed to ported subs for large spaces. PSA and SVS both recommended that I go with their ported subs for large spaces and recommended sealed subs for smaller spaces (I guess where room gain can help). My understanding is that the sealed subs have will more trouble filling the space.

 

That said, I know some guys here really like the sound of the sealed subs over the ported subs and get them no matter the size of the space. My understanding, when this approach is taken, that more subs are needed to achieve the same SPLs. Am I right in this understanding or am I off? This seems like a great time to learn a little about going with sealed sub in large spaces.

 

I personally like the sound of ported subs so I would have recommended Dual XV30s or 3 or 4 XV15s. I would say start with 3 XV15s and add another if you decide you need to. 

 

The SVS PB12+ might be another good option, perhaps look at getting 3 of them. I would readily recommend the Rythmik FV15HP but if you have to go with three or four subs that would get expensive fast.

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post #15 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 03:46 PM
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I am far from an expert on the subject, but from what I've read here sealed subs will have greater total output while ported will have greater output at the port tune only.

Personally, I like the slam of sealed subs...not that I have much experience with ported subs - my one and only ported sub was a small Yamaha sub from about 25 years ago. rolleyes.gif

My sealed Velodyne subs served me well for over 20 years, so that's what I went with when it was time to retire 'em....that's about as far as my thinking went. smile.gif

As far as recommendation for the OP re: sealed vs. ported - I will defer to the experts on that one.

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post #16 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Only if near-field placement around MLP isn't a null itself.

I thought near-field placement was the best option to neutralize null regardless if you sitting in one.
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post #17 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I am far from an expert on the subject, but from what I've read here sealed subs will have greater total output while ported will have greater output at the port tune only.

Personally, I like the slam of sealed subs...not that I have much experience with ported subs - my one and only ported sub was a small Yamaha sub from about 25 years ago. rolleyes.gif

My sealed Velodyne subs served me well for over 20 years, so that's what I went with when it was time to retire 'em....that's about as far as my thinking went. smile.gif

As far as recommendation for the OP re: sealed vs. ported - I will defer to the experts on that one.

Sealed subs MIGHT have greater Total output being they are put in a room that has ample room gain. In a room your size the XV15 would dominate the XS15 from 15-30hz and have a slight advantage above that.
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post #18 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 06:02 PM
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There are several threads on sealed vs. ported, but generally it breaks down to this...Given the same driver and design from the same company, ported will have more output above port tune, sealed will go lower in frequency. Beyond that, it comes down to what each manufacturer is doing in their product line. For example the ported Rythmiks will extend lower than most of the sealed designs from the other companies. Rythmik also offers the F25 which will get almost the same output in a dual sealed design as their single ported FV15HP model for about the same price.
Something you might consider...if you have DIY home improvement skills or access to a cheap contractor, it wouldn't cost much to basically cut that room in half where it hits the half wall...it would probably cost less and lead to better sound than trying to fill the space with more and more subs.
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post #19 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 07:15 PM
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I thought near-field placement was the best option to neutralize null regardless if you sitting in one.

You can't drive a Ferrari in mud. Nothing wrong with Ferrari though; it's the wrong track wink.gif

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post #20 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

In my experience I have always been directed to ported subs for large spaces.
+1. Sealed work best in small rooms, with the longest room dimension 20 feet or less, where cabin gain will fill in the low end. Ported work best in larger spaces, where there's no cabin gain.
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That said, I know some guys here really like the sound of the sealed subs over the ported subs and get them no matter the size of the space.
There is no 'sound of sealed subs'. In blind testing you can't tell which is which when EQd for the same response. In a small room without EQ ported can be too strong in the low end, but fixing that is why AVRs have EQ, The main issue with ported is that they require a higher level of engineering skill to get them right. If a ported sub doesn't sound good it's not because it's ported, it's because it's a poor design.
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My understanding, when this approach is taken, that more subs are needed to achieve the same SPLs.
True, in the range where ported has a sensitivity advantage, generally below 40Hz.
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Given the same driver and design from the same company, ported will have more output above port tune, sealed will go lower in frequency
Given the same driver it should not be used in both ported and sealed cabs. The specs of drivers that work best in sealed and those that work best in ported cabs are quite different.
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post #21 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 07:25 PM
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Thanks Bill, good info as usual.

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post #22 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 07:34 PM
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Good catch Bill. I should have said "from the same product line" rather than the same driver. Many companies offer both a sealed and ported version with the same SIZE driver in their product lines, which was my intention. Just poorly worded.
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post #23 of 68 Old 11-26-2013, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

Good catch Bill. I should have said "from the same product line" rather than the same driver. Many companies offer both a sealed and ported version with the same SIZE driver in their product lines, which was my intention.
+1. This is an SPL chart of the same size cab, one ported, one sealed, both loaded with a fifteen appropriate for the alignment. It's pretty typical, and you can see the difference below 40Hz. If the room's longest dimension is less than 20 feet cabin gain will push up response from 20-25Hz , which will make the sealed adequate in that range but might make the ported too strong, especially if the room's a lot smaller than 20 feet. If the room is larger you won't get the cabin gain, so the ported will sound right in that range, while the sealed will be weak.

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post #24 of 68 Old 11-27-2013, 12:58 AM
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This is the way the cabin gain works:
C/2*L
1130/2* 20=28.5 Hz so you will start gain 12 db/octave starting at 28.5.. This mean at 14Hz you will be up 12 db. Room gain is not boundary gain.
1130 is the speed of sound,C is cabinet gain and L is length of the room. A good amp and a PEQ will help a sealed sub in a large room. The low end can be brought up at the expense of headroom.

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post #25 of 68 Old 11-27-2013, 03:28 AM
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I would buy one Rythmik FV15HP right now and then buy more as needed in the future. You're not going to get it perfect with your current budget, but a single sub like the Rythmik FV15HP will be much better than nothing until you can afford to do it right.

Another option is to DIY, which will give you the best bang for the buck. There's a lot of information about how to do this on AVS.
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post #26 of 68 Old 11-27-2013, 03:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

Rythmik also offers the F25 which will get almost the same output in a dual sealed design as their single ported FV15HP model for about the same price.

I hate this kind of talk because it clouds the already muddy waters.....further.

From Rythmik's website.

FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db

Two FV15HPs @ $2,574.00 vs two F25's @ $2,882.00. Difference between the two pairs in output, -2dB.

Corrected for the 1dB difference in output between the each single subwoofer system, both are four star in our living room.

3300^3 room, ULF Score:

Two FV15HPs = ULF score: 868

Two F25 = ULF score: 977

(of the intrinsic details, to make the F25 work, I'm throwing room aesthetics out the window)

(different drivers)

(longest wall, twenty-two feet)

(goal, combined, deepest extension along with most output)

The best I could find, a pair of F25s will dig approximately 5Hz deeper than a pair of FV15HPs: 7Hz vs 12Hz. confused.gif Which makes the F25 a better choice; price/performance wise. confused.gif

(two or three weeks more and it will be go time; no more waffling)

(somebody hep me)

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Originally Posted by germ79 View Post

Thanks in advance; I want to do this right the first time!

This is a much harder task than one realizes. How difficult can it be to fill one's home with killer bass? tongue.gif

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post #27 of 68 Old 11-27-2013, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Sealed subs MIGHT have greater Total output being they are put in a room that has ample room gain. In a room your size the XV15 would dominate the XS15 from 15-30hz and have a slight advantage above that.

NOW you tell me! rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

FWIW, I can get my XSs pretty flat to just under 10hz with the right EQ curve...although I don't prefer the way they sound when eq'ed that way.



I'll know better next time....but "next time" will probably be 15-20 years from now. cool.gif

Maybe I should just build a wall like Audiophile 2K suggested....believe me, I've considered it many times although the wife isn't too fond of the idea.


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post #28 of 68 Old 11-27-2013, 07:57 AM
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Well you already had Dual XS15's before I even knew who PSA was, so adding 2 more made the most sense imo. BTW Nice Extension! What kind of output can you get down to 10hz? I agree building a wall would be a game changer. Would probably take less maybe even no eq to get a similar graph.
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post #29 of 68 Old 11-27-2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I hate this kind of talk because it clouds the already muddy waters.....further.

From Rythmik's website.

FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db

Two FV15HPs @ $2,574.00 vs two F25's @ $2,882.00. Difference between the two pairs in output, -2dB.

Corrected for the 1dB difference in output between the each single subwoofer system, both are four star in our living room.

3300^3 room, ULF Score:

Two FV15HPs = ULF score: 868

Two F25 = ULF score: 977

(of the intrinsic details, to make the F25 work, I'm throwing room aesthetics out the window)

(different drivers)

(longest wall, twenty-two feet)

(goal, combined, deepest extension along with most output)

The best I could find, a pair of F25s will dig approximately 5Hz deeper than a pair of FV15HPs: 7Hz vs 12Hz. confused.gif Which makes the F25 a better choice; price/performance wise. confused.gif

(two or three weeks more and it will be go time; no more waffling)

(somebody hep me)
This is a much harder task than one realizes. How difficult can it be to fill one's home with killer bass? tongue.gif

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I feel your pain. Just to add more to your plate...keep in mind the diminishing return when talking about ULF (ultra low frequency). The lower you go, the less content there is in movies and especially music. While almost all modern action type movies have some content down to 20hz, fewer have 12hz content, and even fewer have 7hz content. But for the few that have experienced that 7hz content when it does exist many will tell you it was worth what it took to get them there. But the good news is there is a cheat for people who want to experience ULF without filling up the room with multiple sealed subs. Tactile Transducers! Granted, you won't that pressurization on your ears, but it will give the same feel, maybe even a better feel if you are on a concrete floor.
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post #30 of 68 Old 11-27-2013, 08:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

I feel your pain. Just to add more to your plate...keep in mind the diminishing return when talking about ULF (ultra low frequency). The lower you go, the less content there is in movies and especially music. While almost all modern action type movies have some content down to 20hz, fewer have 12hz content, and even fewer have 7hz content. But for the few that have experienced that 7hz content when it does exist many will tell you it was worth what it took to get them there. But the good news is there is a cheat for people who want to experience ULF without filling up the room with multiple sealed subs. Tactile Transducers! Granted, you won't that pressurization on your ears, but it will give the same feel, maybe even a better feel if you are on a concrete floor.

Thanks. I've checked out transducers and with their foibles, they seem to muddy things even further as in a whole "nother" can of worms. Being of a simple mind, I want to make sure my head doesn't explode.

This thread, "The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts" goes a long way in graphically showing how much content is available. And as you point out, those that have gone there, have unequivocally shown it's worth the price/effort.

VIA PMs, in further conversation with basshead81, if I go with the FV15HP, I can get there in two, but give up some depth of extension and if I go with the F25, I can get there in three, gain depth of extension, but lose a lot more Benjamins and budget issues aside, regarding aesthetics, may have WAF issues.

According to our interaction, life's good at 20Hz but things get all sticky wicket at the 16, 12 and 7Hz playback levels.

(final room measurements should let me know which way to turn when I get to the inevitable "T" intersection in the sonic road)

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