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post #91 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chuckychuck7 View Post

By now everyone should know that VTF-15H is a better sub than VX-15 as it should due to the former's higher price tag. Not only does VTF-15H have more output at 20Hz, it is also cleaner than VX-15.

I think one of the reasons VX-15 is deemed more favorably than Hsu Research VTF-15H is the Audioholic's reviews.

The reviewer of VX-15 pointed out that it can hold it's own @ 15Hz, it's driver is appropriate for its price point. The reviewer provided graphs but did not point out that the waterfall decay, long tern power compression, long term power compression magnitude and THD falls short against other ID offerings in similar price point. On the other hand, the reviewer of Hsu VTF-15H almost said "don't expect too much under 30Hz" without providing the waterfall decay, long tern power compression, long term power compression magnitude and THD graphs.

The questions is, is VX-15's short comings audible at a regular listening level of 65 dB?

Lol, if you are listening at 65 dB, you definitely don't need 15" subs, an 8" will do just fine, but I really think you will want a bit more output than that!

As for the Audioholics review, that was part of a shootout against higher end subs, which is why it didn't come off very well. It was reviewed against the Rythmik FV15HP, SVS PB12 Plus, and a sweet Funk sub using a 12" TC Sounds driver. To be honest, the VTF15h might have been just a bit out of its league there.
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post #92 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

But some of these more recent posters like (Bosso) make me think I now gone backwards in a sense and not forward if I'm looking to upgrade my sub in a few years...frown.gif

If I were you, I would get a single amazing driver and put it in a sealed box and power it with whatever you have on hand. That way, when you do upgrade, you won't even be able to upgrade with respect to quality, only quantity, which makes your upgrade path straightforward. For example, go grab a TC Sounds LMS Ultra and throw it in a sealed box. After that, all you can really do to upgrade is add more sealed LMS Ultra boxes, because its not like you are going to find a way better driver out there. Eventually you could end up with a super system, like bosso or notnyt or Japan dave. And even if you don't end up with a dozen heavy-duty 18"s riding on their own circuit box, just one or two really nice subs isn't something you will ever want to let go of.
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post #93 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Bossobass - wow, I just checked out your web page. Your setup, attention to detail, and artistry is very impressive. While reading your website the thought came to mind, "if you have to ask you can't afford it"

I don't own a PSA product, but isn't referring to them as throw away solutions a bit harsh? Many on here save for a long time and get the best they can afford. They keep their subs until something irrepairable fails. That may be why shadyJ takes such umbrage with the advertising tactics. Using it to part people with their hard earned money on what he sees as deceptive irritates him. Especially when they have such fantastic word of mouth reviews and loyal customers based on wonderful service.

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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

True but there's a difference between purposes of subwoofer setups. There's many people here that buy subwoofer designs that go for temporary or casual non dedicated built rooms. Those benefit from the selection of powered subwoofers being that of convenience, time, money, size, decor, ect. The average person may have an entry level styled setup and can benefit from a subwoofer that is not of highest standards or specs. A lot of them keep the same equipment for years and have no need to have nuclear capabilities, as I would one day like lol. Then there's those that have dedicated room build for an over the top home theater build. Off course in that category one would benefit from choosing the best bang for their buck for the budget on each and every piece of equipment. So it depends on the persons goals, purpose, taste, budget, and level of setup they are building. I actually love the idea of having multiple subs being custom built and get a real experience but in reality just like most I don't have a dedicated room so it would be pointless for now nor the time to spend because of work schedule so buying something like a Triax gives me just what I need to have the average guest or family member blown away. Majority of consumers fulfill their needs with products from companies such as PSA and many others. Most will never care for all the technicalities involved nor need to know. Others wish to expand their knowledge and turn to HT as a hobby. I think HT setups are for enjoyment and fun, it even brings families and people together for movie nights and entertains others while they're home from work or away from the chaos or stress from our daily lives. To me it's just for fun just like fixing up a car, you can pay to have it done or learn and do it yourself, but every person has different financial states and tastes.

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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Yeah but Bosso you have or should (if you choose) cut a guy some slack in the process of getting there if that’s indeed where he decides to go?? I know I won’t consider many subs/drivers (like others) I have in the past and have been building/a little ID buying for years (sometimes with your help) but it was a process none the same. Admittedly it would have been nice to hop-skip to my view today, but in a sense me being me, I had to pay to get there. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not taking things personally, but you must realize jumping in from the start to what we’re talking about is quite a step albeit the mo$t prudent, fulfilling and gratifying way to go imo. Some can’t, ($$) some won’t (DIY) and some don’t have the desire, and that’s all good too. cool.gif

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The above is not being fair to us fiscal mortals.

I've settled on what I consider to be the best I can afford. And based on available monies, my choice will "...get the job done."

The point, unqualified comments such as "...get the job done." are as subjective as saying, we must go to the moon.

Addressing a posted comment, as monies become available, if measurements show a need for adding an additional subwoofer, I will. I have no intention of upgrading to the next level of available subwoofers.

The point, high rollers need to give us "proles," a break.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Like you, I have made a subwoofer choice and there's no looking back as there's no point in doing so. Unless sounding like a Harpy, buy, enjoy and put another Blu-ray in the tray as there's no reason to fault the XS30.

A bit of philosophy that in the form of a check, one can take to any bank and cash, every single working day of the week: The degree of one's criticism is directly proportional to the level of their insecurity.

The point, everybody can be critical of every subwoofer under production today. A bit of criticism is reasonable. A lot of criticism exposes the insecurities or motives of the individual doing the criticizing. I have but one criticism of the XS30 and that's output. OTOH, that's the nature of a sealed subwoofer. If someone wants better sound reproduction characteristics than what the XS30 offers, wants to be overly critical of the XS30 or wants to worry about how one company advertises their wares over another, they can pony up the Benjamins.

A search of "subwoofers I've owned" took a few seconds and the first page has plenty of validation of my point, which is always lost on folks who've 'done research' and bought the sub they believe is the last one they'll ever need or the only one they can afford, etc:
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"HOLY CRAP these are unbelievable. As a background, I've owned a SVS PB10-NSD, and Axiom EP-500, and my last sub was an Epik Sentinel. I hooked up just one of the Empires first and it completely blew every other sub I've owned out of the water (forgive the enthusiasm, I can't help it). Fantastic, tight, mid bass and CRAZY low end. I was really worried about losing the deep stuff going from a Sentinel to an Empire, but no one should ever worry about that. My girlfriend instantly could tell how much better it sounded than the last sub...and then I hooked up the second sub. Gobs and Gobs and Gobs of bass across every frequency.

And it goes on and on...

Quick math shows he'd spent around $6,000 to that point. The thread for the subs he bought has multi-million hits. The company he bought from has hundreds of thousands of endorsements of the companies service, owner's helpfulness, cool factor, etc.

He's got a really loud system that rolls off steeply @ 20 Hz from a company many are discussing these days.

I don't really care to say more about this subject other than the fact that I've been here for 10 years and I've seen this story repeated many, many times by folks who've spent quite a bit more than the cited reviewer. It used to be almost a requisite to post which subs you've owned before this bestest sub ever to add credibility to your review.

I was asked a simple question and I answered it. That's all there is to it.
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post #94 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 10:09 AM
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Bossobass, I totally get what you are saying about buying the best sub first and never having to upgrade again, but what if the person doesn't have 4k to spend right away? Should they wait 4 more years and have no sub until they can afford it? I am also sure there are many people that are not looking to the ultimate sub and will be more than happy with the $700-$1000 subs on the market. If someone was looking to add their first sub and everyone started telling them they need to buy a $4k sub that may scare them out of the hobby. Most people cant afford a multi-thousand dollar sub much less multiples.

Also if you buy an $800 sub and decide to upgrade you can always sell it and get some money back.

I purchased 3 XV15's and upgraded to Triax's a year later but got full purchase price on my trade up.

Pm sent.
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post #95 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 10:37 AM
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There's a big difference between buying a lesser product when you can comfortably afford a better one and buying a good-quality product that fits your budget. And there's no shame in buying that good-quality product now and upgrading to something bigger/better down the road. People do it all the time in life, with electronics, appliances, cars and even homes.
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post #96 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 11:44 AM
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Bossobass, you have a nice website and some really impressive product offerings...no doubt, very high end, that should definitely be considered by those spending multi thousands on the lowest octave.

With your knowledge/experience, what commercially available subs do you like for those of us who can't afford the very high end and who may never make more than one sub purchase?

So, what do you like for $500-650.... and for $700-900... and for $1000-1500 (obviously these ranges are arbitrary).

Thanks
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post #97 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
A search of "subwoofers I've owned" took a few seconds and the first page has plenty of validation of my point, which is always lost on folks who've 'done research' and bought the sub they believe is the last one they'll ever need or the only one they can afford, etc:

Maybe back in the day, but I never buy a sub or a driver that I think would be a end all even including if I were to purchase the bosso sono/s.. I know better. It could be the best driver in the world and I would still be putting it in different enclosures and alignments. Although I have my favorite to date, it’s more of a hobby kind of thing rather than looking for a end all. That’s nothing but pure HS up the nose if I were to entertain such a thought albeit I’m very happy with the options I have now.

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post #98 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 01:23 PM
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This is really turning out to be a very interesting thread.

 

If you look at things from a purely Machiavellian point of view where the end justifies the means then I completely agree with the sentiments expressed by Bossobass. Do what ever you have to to buy that high quality subwoofer right from the start and in the end you will end up saving money. He's right and it's great advice to those who can follow it.

 

But most of us can't afford to spend $3 or $4k on a single subwoofer and it would be irresponsible to try and do so, especially coming out of a recession. Buying an $800 subwoofer is a compromise I'm willing to make and one my wife is willing to let me make. Spending $4k on a subwoofer that is a lot better in every way would be fiscally irresponsible for me and I think my wife would try to castrate me if I did. :eek:

 

But some people can afford to buy a $4k subwoofer or maybe even two or three of them. And for them Bossobass points are dead on.

 

But for the rest of us we have to buy something so we make compromises and buy the best subwoofer we can afford. The problem is we know we are making compromises and that's what makes us continually ask the questions: "Did I get the right subwoofer?  Did I get the best I could for my money?  Did I make a mistake?" It's a sort of paranoia that those who have lot's of money don't have to deal with. 

 

So in the end we buy a subwoofer, like it (or love it) for awhile and save up for what's next. Then when the time comes we upgrade to the best we can. Repeat as necessary. In the end we spend more but it's a more responsible approach.

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post #99 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

A search of "subwoofers I've owned" took a few seconds and the first page has plenty of validation of my point, which is always lost on folks who've 'done research' and bought the sub they believe is the last one they'll ever need or the only one they can afford, etc:
And it goes on and on...

Just curious, Dave... what was the first sub you owned?

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #100 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Bossobass, I totally get what you are saying about buying the best sub first and never having to upgrade again, but what if the person doesn't have 4k to spend right away? Should they wait 4 more years and have no sub until they can afford it? I am also sure there are many people that are not looking to the ultimate sub and will be more than happy with the $700-$1000 subs on the market. If someone was looking to add their first sub and everyone started telling them they need to buy a $4k sub that may scare them out of the hobby. Most people cant afford a multi-thousand dollar sub much less multiples.

Also if you buy an $800 sub and decide to upgrade you can always sell it and get some money back.

I purchased 3 XV15's and upgraded to Triax's a year later but got full purchase price on my trade up.

Pm sent.

"…many people" you apparently have become the spokesperson for are not posting in this thread accusing ShadyJ of thought crimes.

I'm not vaguely interested in what some invented people prefer or are more than happy with.

There is only one point to this thread and everyone is missing it.

You can buy whatever subwoofer trips your trigger, whatever that may be, at whatever price you may find attractive, practical, or just satisfies your penchant for instant gratification. BUT... You may not make silly claims about what you decided to do that aren't true, followed by belittling the guy who points that out to other members with impunity.
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post #101 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Just curious, Dave... what was the first sub you owned?

Craig

Back in the ProLogic days I built two 10 ft^3 double chamber ported subs, 1-18" driver per and powered them with an old Phase Linear 400 amp.



That was 1996.
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post #102 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Back in the ProLogic days I built two 10 ft^3 double chamber ported subs, 1-18" driver per and powered them with an old Phase Linear 400 amp.



That was 1996.

cool.gif I had a Phase Linear 400 at one point too. Never used it power a subwoofer though. I wish I had never sold that amp.

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post #103 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Back in the ProLogic days I built two 10 ft^3 double chamber ported subs, 1-18" driver per and powered them with an old Phase Linear 400 amp.



That was 1996.

Those are butt ugly...imo...some of us need to cope with high WAF and don't have dedicated HT rooms...I've seen some of those gawdy subs over in the DIY section...never in a million years they find a place in my living room.

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post #104 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

"…many people" you apparently have become the spokesperson for are not posting in this thread accusing ShadyJ of thought crimes.

This is just a silly response

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

BUT... You may not make silly claims about what you decided to do that aren't true

I am not sure to whom or to what you are referring to here.

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So, what do you like for $500-650.... and for $700-900... and for $1000-1500 (obviously these ranges are arbitrary).
That's a good question. I, too, am curious to know what subs - at the various price points at which people can afford to shop - are not "throw away solution" subs.
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Bossobass, you have a nice website...

Not if they don't post prices.
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post #107 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Those are butt ugly...imo...some of us need to cope with high WAF and don't have dedicated HT rooms...I've seen some of those gawdy subs over in the DIY section...never in a million years they find a place in my living room.

I wasn't trying to impress your wife. smile.gif

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cool.gif I had a Phase Linear 400 at one point too. Never used it power a subwoofer though. I wish I had never sold that amp.

Craig

Yeah, I've always been a fan of Carver. Actually, I think my son still has that amp. cool.gif

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I am not sure to whom or to what you are referring to here.

I am not sure it matters.
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post #108 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 03:40 PM
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Bossobass you do have a nice website and your subs look very beautiful, nice work!  Why don't you post your prices? It makes understanding what subs like that are worth a bit easier to comprehend when surfing and comparing. 

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post #109 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

Bossobass you do have a nice website and your subs look very beautiful, nice work!  Why don't you post your prices? It makes understanding what subs like that are worth a bit easier to comprehend when surfing and comparing. 


You know what they say if you need to ask the price you likely can't afford it....biggrin.gif

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post #110 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 04:11 PM
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I think we need to take a breather and relax. I think Bosso is referring to people like myself, as well as a few here. Personally, I grew up with little and thought that spending X amount on a sub is just plain financially stupid. What if we looked at this like any other major purchase for the home? Aren't we spending time on end discussing bass? Therefore, it must be as important. I have realized that my next sub will indeed be a Submersive. I spent so much time questioning why Seaton, SVS, Funk, etc has to be so expensive, relatively speaking. Isn't the Infinity brand worth the premium over Honda and Mercedes and BMW over both? Diminishing returns....relative. I am done with the endless upgrades that get me to below relative satisfaction. It costs money. Wasted money and energy.


So yes, look at it like a major purchase. Perhaps you can only afford 300 and that is ok. However, perhaps you can really afford 500 instead of 300, 1,000 instead of 600, etc. However, you must believe that added premium is indeed worth the components/sweat/engineering that goes into the product. And if one day I need, and can afford, Bosso's/Funk custom offerings then I must believe that they are indeed worth it. Just my 2 cents.

On another note, it is funny of some of us fanboys talk smack about competing products and toss around redundant information like gurus yet act like wussies when taken to task. All so stupid. At least we all now understand the word guru.

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post #111 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 04:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by morrischestnut60 View Post

I think we need to take a breather and relax. I think Bosso is referring to people like myself, as well as a few here. Personally, I grew up with little and thought that spending X amount on a sub is just plain financially stupid. What if we looked at this like any other major purchase for the home? Aren't we spending time on end discussing bass? Therefore, it must be as important. I have realized that my next sub will indeed be a Submersive. I spent so much time questioning why Seaton, SVS, Funk, etc has to be so expensive, relatively speaking. Isn't the Infinity brand worth the premium over Honda and Mercedes and BMW over both? Diminishing returns....relative. I am done with the endless upgrades that get me to below relative satisfaction. It costs money. Wasted money and energy.

And some won't put their subs up for testing and others won't post their prices. There's a reason for this type of business model. Ticks me off as I know when this is done, the individual doing it, is playing everybody else and if I'm wrong, they'll submit their subs for testing and post their prices.

It really is that simple.
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post #112 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 05:11 PM
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^-- what a load...lol
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post #113 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

And some won't put their subs up for testing and others won't post their prices. There's a reason for this type of business model. Ticks me off as I know when this is done, the individual doing it, is playing everybody else and if I'm wrong, they'll submit their subs for testing and post their prices.

It really is that simple.

BeeMan....thanks for your post this AM....The SubM was at the top end of my comfort level...the perfect sub for me would've been the 18.0 from FA but way beyond my budget. Seaton's website has been a work in progress for months...I know this question has come up before as to way JTR and Seatons subs have not being tested by 3rd parties...I also recall reading an explanation that was issued by Seaton explaining why? I know, JTR and Seaton both attend GTG showcasing their speakers and have good following amongst AV goers...We do a lot of shopping on line...I like going to a web site to see what they offer....I've talked with Funk on a few occasions discussing subs I don't get that feeling with the other two.

I'm still up in the air as to what I'll do, my goal was to eventually get dual 30's but now I'm just not sure. I might need to sleep on it another day or two...if I change my mind I'll need to contact PSA...soon. When you see comparisons as suggested by some in this thread to companies like eD, epic and heaven forbid AV123....yeah...I get worried...frown.gif

I might just go over to PBC's place and pick up that sb13u he offered to lend me....smile.gif

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post #114 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

And some won't put their subs up for testing and others won't post their prices. There's a reason for this type of business model. Ticks me off as I know when this is done, the individual doing it, is playing everybody else and if I'm wrong, they'll submit their subs for testing and post their prices.

It really is that simple.
I held the testing thing against the Submersive and that is the reason I do not own one currently. However, over time I was won over by knowledgeable/picky folks who own the sub. Yes it still nags me and yes that fear of being bombarded with orders in bull crap. Yes Bosso and whoever may or may not post prices but aren't all custom solutions in life that way? In time, you will come to appreciate folks like Shady and the like. I used to think that he contradicted himself but I was just projecting my own subjectivity. Ask him a targeted question within a given scenario and he gives a targeted response.

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post #115 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

I'm still up in the air as to what I'll do, my goal was to eventually get dual 30's but now I'm just not sure. I might need to sleep on it another day or two...if I change my mind I'll need to contact PSA...soon. When you see comparisons as suggested by some in this thread to companies like eD, epic and heaven forbid AV123....yeah...I get worried...frown.gif

I must have missed the comparison to eD, epic and AV123.

Who was compared to them? Seaton? JTR? PSA?

Was the comparison how they went under?

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post #116 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

BeeMan....thanks for your post this AM....The SubM was at the top end of my comfort level...the perfect sub for me would've been the 18.0 from FA but way beyond my budget. Seaton's website has been a work in progress for months...I know this question has come up before as to way JTR and Seatons subs have not being tested by 3rd parties...I also recall reading an explanation that was issued by Seaton explaining why? I know, JTR and Seaton both attend GTG showcasing their speakers and have good following amongst AV goers...We do a lot of shopping on line...I like going to a web site to see what they offer....I've talked with Funk on a few occasions discussing subs I don't get that feeling with the other two.

I'm still up in the air as to what I'll do, my goal was to eventually get dual 30's but now I'm just not sure. I might need to sleep on it another day or two...if I change my mind I'll need to contact PSA...soon. When you see comparisons as suggested by some in this thread to companies like eD, epic and heaven forbid AV123....yeah...I get worried...frown.gif

I might just go over to PBC's place and pick up that sb13u he offered to lend me....smile.gif

I would look into a passive Funk 18.0 and build on that. Funk's TSAD18v1 driver looks amazing, and can not be topped easily. When you want to upgrade your system, just add another one, and continue adding them as long as you have the upgrade itch. Don't get something that you have to replace eventually, get something that you can build on and will never replace. A passive Funk 18.0 can last a long long time if you take care of it, and isn't going to be surpassed in sound quality.
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post #117 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

I must have missed the comparison to eD, epic and AV123.

Who was compared to them? Seaton? JTR? PSA?

Was the comparison how they went under?

Yup...AV123 was referenced in post 44...the others also came up, in what context... I'm not sure? Their demise has being well documented how it came about both here and various other forums.

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post #118 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 06:29 PM
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Yup...AV123 was referenced in post 44...the others also came up, in what context... I'm not sure? Their demise has being well documented how it came about both here and various other forums.

Thanks.

I did read about their demise, not sure if that is what he is trying to infer about PSA or something else.

The guys at PSA have been around for a long time (Tom was the cofounder of SVS), you don't have to worry about them failing like AV123.

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post #119 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

I must have missed the comparison to eD, epic and AV123.

Who was compared to them? Seaton? JTR? PSA?

Was the comparison how they went under?

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the owner of AV123 a crook that was involved in some kind of criminal activity? and that was the reason behind the demise of AV123.
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post #120 of 197 Old 12-01-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would look into a passive Funk 18.0 and build on that. Funk's TSAD18v1 driver looks amazing, and can not be topped easily. When you want to upgrade your system, just add another one, and continue adding them as long as you have the upgrade itch. Don't get something that you have to replace eventually, get something that you can build on and will never replace. A passive Funk 18.0 can last a long long time if you take care of it, and isn't going to be surpassed in sound quality.

Shady even with free shipping within NA the 18.0 will cost me 3500.00 cdn. Yeah...I could go passive but I don't like the thought of using an outboard amp...I like keeping things simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Thanks.

I did read about their demise, not sure if that is what he is trying to infer about PSA or something else.

The guys at PSA have been around for a long time (Tom was the cofounder of SVS), you don't have to worry about them failing like AV123.

He is one person I would not want to be compared too...I'm speaking of MLS....of av123
As for PSA business model I know Tom was a cofounder of Svs that him and Ron S. started the company...smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the owner of AV123 a crook that was involved in some kind of criminal activity? and that was the reason behind the demise of AV123.


Oh yeah and indicted on fraud charges in Colorado...I believe. I know, Shady know his stuff but its those subtle digs why his character is sometimes questioned.

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