Finally we have a simple way to rate and compare subwoofers! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 197 Old 01-04-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Thanks for the post by Linkwitz Bosso and to sticking with the data, always interested in what you both have to say. It seems the shaped tone bursts translate well to source material tracking. smile.gif

Same here, Luke. Your posts are always spot on and well presented. cool.gif

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post #182 of 197 Old 01-04-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

"More data, less wank." one of the best sayings going.

You're more than welcomed to come over Jim. Bring along your measuring gear...I have REW installed on my lap top. I have a sb13u and XS30 on hand...wth...bring one of your twins over....I'd like that.

Things must be real slow over at the DIY section of the forum for some of you I see ....rolleyes.gif

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post #183 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 02:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

We should all meet over a pitcher of beer at a strip club. Should mellow out the mood.

Until the wife finds out. tongue.gif
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post #184 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 05:50 AM
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Call it a sub crawl meeting. Difference is you are crawling around on stage. I mean, guys surrounded by naked women. Talking about big Ass boxes that make loud obnoxious sound. I see no reason for any wife to be upset.
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post #185 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

There you go again. :roll eyes:


I took nothing out of context. The context of your posts is to excuse the marketing ploy ShadyJ exposed as no big deal because you like PSA. All of the rest of your posts have no relevance.

You posted 3 measurements. In that post, there is no context. There is no way to know if these measurements were done in the same session, if the mic was in the exact spot for all 3, if the mic was 1" or 4M from the subs, how you calibrated SPL in REW and many other important specifics to the point you were trying to make in one sentence. If you want your posted data to be credible, include the necessary information. I mean that sincerely, FWIW. If you don't have the time, as you say, don't do drive by posting and expect to get respect from that.

On just this page, you said:
The context is not very deep. The suggestion is that the max burst curve, the numbers that form the curve being the controversy from the OP, is irrelevant when you put a sub in a room. When the point having been made is that the sub changes its FR under varying levels of input and content, the context of your comments is clear. Any other meaning that might have been intended either lacks proper explanation or is not relevant to the point.

I've used 16 Fi drivers. I'm very familiar with the inductance hump and the general driver design philosophy of Scott, et al. I designed and built a notch filter and L/Ts to alter the response (remove the hump). To be sure that they couldn't revert to their naked response during playback (that the hump would not reappear when the system was at reference level with demanding source), I used 8 of them and 18KW.

If I used one of them and 500W, I know what the result would have been. Please don't drag me through this point over and over. I know what the result would have been. No stretching here. I saw it immediately when I was thumbing through DB one day.

There are lots of reasons why someone might like a non-linera frequency response. Tilted, house curve, hot SW trim, top heavy, mid bass slam, etc. I attended a blind listening session where the only thing the listeners knew where what subs would be used, but not at which session. The host bumped one narrow frequency band of a sub by +5dB and passed it off as a whole different sub, which no one questioned, but everyone heard and noted. I actually guessed one was ported and the other was sealed, but both were the same sub with just that little change in FR. Some loved it, some hated it, some liked it and some didn't care either way. What does that prove? Zero.

And reviews? I've never read one where the reviewer didn't like the sub, going back 12 years now. Talk about irrelevant.

I'm not in this thread to express personal listening preferences. I'm just not OK with the way more than a few members have treated ShadyJ because of embarrassingly silly reasons. And, none of them has added a single word of usable information to the subject or subwoofers in general. It's like a high school clique raggin' on a student because his shoes don't match his belt.

Rew was calibrated and verified with my spl meter @ 85db using pink noise.

I don't really care to prove anything to...who are you?

Tom or Scott need to take the time to stop in this thread to set the record straight.

Um the XV15 has great reviews across multiple forums....don't know where you have been.

Yes you are right...Its like a high school student whining like a little kid over something stupid and getting called out for it. There was no need to go to these great lengths to create such a thread over a comparison chart. The Chart does not imply other subwoofers are bad. When a customer emails Tom its easier to point them to the chart opposed to answering the same question 40-50times a day. You guys need to realize 90% of business is from casual enthusiasts that do not have a clue about all the fine print or specs like we do here. The chart is just a dumbed down way to make sense of things for those customers. Get over it!!
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post #186 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 07:19 AM
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I have seen this happen in the past to be quite honest about it except with different company's. On one hand points are made that I don’t dispute (on both sides) but then on the other hand it’s the insistence of it all. I see this coming from both sides. Staying on subject I have my thoughts regarding the charts.. bottom line, they are generating what one would expect here on the forums.
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post #187 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Rew was calibrated and verified with my spl meter @ 85db using pink noise.

I don't really care to prove anything to...who are you?

Tom or Scott need to take the time to stop in this thread to set the record straight.

Um the XV15 has great reviews across multiple forums....don't know where you have been.

Yes you are right...Its like a high school student whining like a little kid over something stupid and getting called out for it. There was no need to go to these great lengths to create such a thread over a comparison chart. The Chart does not imply other subwoofers are bad. When a customer emails Tom its easier to point them to the chart opposed to answering the same question 40-50times a day. You guys need to realize 90% of business is from casual enthusiasts that do not have a clue about all the fine print or specs like we do here. The chart is just a dumbed down way to make sense of things for those customers. Get over it!!

Um, are the great reviews similar to yours?

It's apparent that you don't care to prove anything you post to anyone.

Yeah, no change in this FR when pushed:



Yet you could tell what's happening at 50 Hz from this 'data'.

Let's see... run the subs 15dB hot and ignore the 15-30dB compression and just buy a 3rd sub to smooth out the hump. But, before that, tell everyone with a straight face that with 2 of these subs you 'hit' 130dB. Then, describe how really good it sounds.

Awesome. biggrin.gif

Nothing silly here, folks... just another great review, and back by measurements from a guy who's heard lots of subs.

Funny how your opinions meet the Basshead seal of approval but ShadyJ's don't. Go figure.
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post #188 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Until the wife finds out. tongue.gif
My wife would get mad if we didn't invite her...just saying lol.
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post #189 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 11:05 AM
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LOL this thread is a lot like high school. Someone said something, a fight broke out, more people got involved, now noses are bloodied and there's a whole lot of people watching to see who's going to win.  All in all, it's been very entertaining. Kind of like a pay per view cage match. :)

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post #190 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

LOL this thread is a lot like high school. Someone said something, a fight broke out, more people got involved, now noses are bloodied and there's a whole lot of people watching to see who's going to win.  All in all, it's been very entertaining. Kind of like a pay per view cage match. smile.gif

Yup...I'm all for new best friends....HS was a lot of fun.

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post #191 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 12:30 PM
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We should all meet at the flagpole after school. With a pitcher of beer in hand. And a stripper or 2.
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post #192 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 12:42 PM
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We should all meet at the flagpole after school. With a pitcher of beer in hand. And a stripper or 2.

Now that's something I never experienced in HS.  

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post #193 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you only listen at soft volumes, you would probably not be able to tell the difference. When the drivers have to start to move, the subs set themselves apart: XV15 and VTF15h. The VTF15h isn't nearly as affected by compression, and exhibits only half the distortion for each of the output sweeps. If you like things loud, keep the VTF15h. If you don't need loud, the XV15 would probably not be a noticeable downgrade. But then again, if you don't need loud, you don't need a sub like the XV15 anyway, you might as well go for a VTF2. l


Yeah, I don't listen loud at all. The only reason I bought a vtf-15 is that there was a local sale for a great deal.

I think if I ever get motivated I might buy a xv15 and give it a try. (Right now I've solved the toddler finger problem by turning the driver toward the wall - it works, but bit of a WAF problem)

But then again, it seems like an awful lot of work to buy a sub and sell a sub for this particular reason.

Check out my WAF approved living room theater

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1526916/my...-1-living-room
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post #194 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Rew was calibrated and verified with my spl meter @ 85db using pink noise.

What SPL meter are you using?

I don't really care to prove anything to...who are you?

Tom or Scott need to take the time to stop in this thread to set the record straight.

Just curious. What would they prove or disprove?

Um the XV15 has great reviews across multiple forums....don't know where you have been.

I don't believe that is what the topic of this thread is about.

Yes you are right...Its like a high school student whining like a little kid over something stupid and getting called out for it. There was no need to go to these great lengths to create such a thread over a comparison chart. The Chart does not imply other subwoofers are bad. When a customer emails Tom its easier to point them to the chart opposed to answering the same question 40-50times a day. You guys need to realize 90% of business is from casual enthusiasts that do not have a clue about all the fine print or specs like we do here. The chart is just a dumbed down way to make sense of things for those customers. Get over it!!

This is a great thread and really interesting. PSA is a cool and welcome addition to a subworld that has slimmed down quite a bit in the last few years, and I wish them success. However, they should not be immune to scrutiny and vetting by some AVS vets. Anyone who is interested in the lower octaves and spends many hours a day on audio forums would certainly want an accurate picture of the landscape and welcome contribution from experienced and extremely knowledgeable sub designers/builders. After a good debate, the cream will usually rise to the top and it usually becomes apparent to those in-the-know and a chance to learn something.

If indeed these charts are using cooked average numbers from different data sets to give a favorable impression of PSA's products, than they are nothing more than sleight-of-hand to fool uninformed potential customers. PSA has every right to market their products how they see fit, but there should be truth in advertising. Otherwise this can be interpreted as deceptive and meant to artificially devalue its potentially better-performing competitors. The charts do a disservice to the nice products that PSA makes.

basshead81: I have a couple questions inserted into your quote above.

Thanks.

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post #195 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 05:54 PM
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^^Agree, whether shady likes PSA or not is irrelevant, prove him wrong.

PSA seems like a value oriented company with some really smart and experienced people behind it. I thought those charts were a little unusual when I first saw them and I am glad this thread exists because it threw some light on what was going on that I and probably many others would not have fully realized on our own.

This is why I love AVS, no one should be above reproach.

I still think PSA has a lot to offer, but let's not pretend their products have no weaknesses. It is a disservice to everyone who comes here for knowledge to try and shout anyone down that points out flaws in your pet products. If you feel the issues pointed out will not affect you, then great, but don't try to discourage those that share them because there may be someone out there that could have used that information before they plunked down their hard earned dollars. I used to do the same thing myself and it took a long time to kind of let go of my ego and think of these kinds of threads as learning experiences and not a personal assault on my choices as a consumer.

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Holy smokes. A simple question turned into a buck wild display of thoughts, gazillion graphs, multiple interpretations, philosophies, and overall mayhem!!
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post #196 of 197 Old 01-05-2014, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Thats a piss poor overlay of a graph...the compression is not 15-30 db, you set the graph this way to purposely make things look worse. Adding a 3rd knocked the 30hz peak down and the first graph you posted proved that. I need to take some new measurents but have not had the time. Thats a peak caused by the room response not a FR hump caused by high inductance.

Audioholics and S&V gave the XV15 great reviews, Jim Wilson also gave the XS15 great reviews.

You think because you can write novels of ******** to prove a point that makes you special. You have a real smart mouth on the internet but in the real world do you actually have a set of balls or did you sit on Santas lap and ask for a pair for christmas?

Unlike yourself, I don't post without knowing what I'm posting, nor do I care if it's special or not.

The overlay is correct.

You should learn how to measure and read the results before you tell others how it is.

The evidence has been posted throughout this thread. Pull your head out the sand and look at it.

What I think is that you have no argument in this thread so you resort to insults.

lol at the review thing.
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post #197 of 197 Old 01-11-2014, 05:53 PM
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I can't believe I read every post in this thread, I suck! Anyways, I don't like seeing averages on charts because I want to know where, not how loud at 50-100hz. Are the charts wrong? Are those the accurate averages? If so PSA did nothing wrong except they are using data that makes them look better when in fact are not overall. Chalk it up to marketing fluff. I guess it is the same when you see companies say sensitivity of 100 dBs and F3 of 30hz.

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