Chest pounding bass SVS, Ryhtmic, HSU, or some other brand? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

The data is all from the same source, done by the same tester.    

This is one of the problems- it isn't all from the same source and from the same tester. With the exception of the XV15, all the PSA subs appear to be using in-house measurements. All of the other subwoofer data looks to have been grabbed from third party sources, ie different data sets. Here is why this is a problem:
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... it’s probably impossible for any two technicians measuring different subwoofer samples in different environments with different gear to get the same CEA-2010 measurements. Any number of factors could throw off one or both technicians, and errors created by these factors can combine to create larger errors.
The only way to properly compare these subs is when all the data is coming from one tester. CEA might be OK to get a rough idea of how these subs response compare to each other, but for the kind of comparison PSA is using in their 'value factor', it is nowhere near reliable enough. Also you neatly glossed over my point about using a peakish response to boost averaged measurements- I take it you have no problem with that tactic?
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post #92 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I am not disagreeing with you on the comparison chart...it definitely has the appearance of a maketing tactic. However the XV15 is a solid performing sub and there is no two ways around it. HSU does something similar with its sales pitch as Raynist pointed out. adding a second sub does not equal 4 times the power or output. It effectively doubles the power and can add up to 6db depending on placement at the main LP. When I became familiar with taking measurements I quickly realized that the native response of subwoofer is not the end all in determining if it is a good sub. After I provided the data to prove this then my measuring gear was questioned....ok whatever its not that deep. Also the long term compression and thd charts change immensely. 2m ground plane testing is in place to compare subs on a even playing field.Cea2010 testing pushes subs well pass the limits of any source content....hince why they allow up 35% thd as a passing result. This is when you need to take your eyes off the thd and compression charts for 2 minutes and read Ricci's review and all the other Reviews out there. There is more to speakers and subs then what the specs show on paper.

Again I understand you do not like the PSA comparison chart, we get it...I am not saying I agree with it 100% either, but please stop putting the XV subs down because of your issues with that char
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No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #93 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 05:11 PM
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I used the data from one individual, Josh Ricci and his numbers off databass/audioholics spreadsheet(they are one and the same) to see if my results matched those on the PSA website.  They did.

 

By a peakish response, do you mean higher 30-80Hz numbers compare to say...the svs sub? It definitely has much higher max output in that range.


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post #94 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

I used the data from one individual, Josh Ricci and his numbers off databass/audioholics spreadsheet(they are one and the same) to see if my results matched those on the PSA website.  They did.

By a peakish response, do you mean higher 30-80Hz numbers compare to say...the svs sub? It definitely has much higher max output in that range.

I am not debating the numbers themselves, its the disparity of the sources which do not make for a proper comparison. And by peakish response, I mean the lack of linearity when the sub is pushed to its limits.
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post #95 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I am not debating the numbers themselves, its the disparity of the sources which do not make for a proper comparison. And by peakish response, I mean the lack of linearity when the sub is pushed to its limits.

I have been following this debate for several days as I debated which subs to buy. I even asked your opinion which you gave and I respect, but why do you care so much what I or anyone else spends there money on? I still bought PSA subs and feel they will meet my needs. If PSA has truly misrepresented themselves so badly, the companies they have wronged could easily take legal action. Do you just like a good argument, why waste so much of your time on such a trivial issue?

Start the new year of right and just enjoy life. Does it really matter if somebody buys PSA products? How does it harm you and is it worth your effort to spend so much time and research to refute their claims?

I sincerely hope you have a Happy New Year, I know I will when my new XS30s arrive. They may not go as deep as the FV15HP, or play at as many decibels as some other sub, but does it really matter? I only really need them to beat my SVS PB12NSD, and I believe they will.
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post #96 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 08:22 PM
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Lowell I am eager to hear your impression of your xs30's, especially since you are upgrading from the sub I just ordered :)  I had a feeling that the choice you made or the dual rhythmiks would have been your best long term option.  I have a feeling this will take your home theater to a whole new level.


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post #97 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

.... I don't really care one way or the other about PSA as a company or their products......

For someone who doesn't care about PSA one way or another you sure spent a lot of time and effort trashing them (and insulting their customers......uninformed? Really?).

Since it's obviously your mission to protect us from dubious claims, how about HSU's "...new integrated flare triangular ports (patent pending), .."? Here's a pic of my first sub (ADS M3) purchased about 20 years ago;


Look familiar? wink.gif

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post #98 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Lowell I am eager to hear your impression of your xs30's, especially since you are upgrading from the sub I just ordered smile.gif  I had a feeling that the choice you made or the dual rhythmiks would have been your best long term option.  I have a feeling this will take your home theater to a whole new level.

I will, to bad you don't live near San Antonio, I would sell you a second one cheap so you could have duals. It's a great sub, but if you don't want to have to upgrade in the future, stop coming here. It just makes you realize what you don't have. :-)

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post #99 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Since it's obviously your mission to protect us from dubious claims, how about HSU's "...new integrated flare triangular ports (patent pending), .."? Here's a pic of my first sub (ADS M3) purchased about 20 years ago;


Look familiar? wink.gif

Are those ports flared? Nope. By the way, Klipsch was using triangular ports before that. You can have ports in any shape, the trick is keeping chuffing to a minimum in the process via flaring. What flared angles are optimal for reducing chuffing? Your old sub likely did not displace enough air to have to worry about those issues.
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post #100 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 09:49 PM
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Are those ports flared? Nope. By the way, Klipsch was using triangular ports before that. You can have ports in any shape, the trick is keeping chuffing to a minimum in the process via flaring. What flared angles are optimal for reducing chuffing? Your old sub likely did not displace enough air to have to worry about those issues.

Yep, just the response I expected. Thanks for confirming my suspicions about your views of PSA. wink.gif

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post #101 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 10:06 PM
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Yep, just the response I expected. Thanks for confirming my suspicions about your views of PSA. wink.gif

You asked me about triangular ports to test your suspicions about my views of PSA? Are you feeling OK?
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post #102 of 174 Old 12-31-2013, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

I have been following this debate for several days as I debated which subs to buy. I even asked your opinion which you gave and I respect, but why do you care so much what I or anyone else spends there money on? I still bought PSA subs and feel they will meet my needs. If PSA has truly misrepresented themselves so badly, the companies they have wronged could easily take legal action. Do you just like a good argument, why waste so much of your time on such a trivial issue?

Start the new year of right and just enjoy life. Does it really matter if somebody buys PSA products? How does it harm you and is it worth your effort to spend so much time and research to refute their claims?

I sincerely hope you have a Happy New Year, I know I will when my new XS30s arrive. They may not go as deep as the FV15HP, or play at as many decibels as some other sub, but does it really matter? I only really need them to beat my SVS PB12NSD, and I believe they will.

Actually the XS30 will go deeper then the FV15, but it will not have near the output around the FV's tune. Either way you should be very happy with your new subs. Please post your impressions after you get them setup.
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post #103 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 07:45 AM
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Once I get my SVS sub, I am going to attempt to follow some advice from the B-52's:  "its not having what you want, its wanting what you have".......otherwise I will end up with 4 triax's.

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post #104 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 07:54 AM
 
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The rest of the story, getting what you want, so you will want what you have, is a good thing. The point, if you want "FOUR" Triax subs and this is within your fiscal cards, I say go for it.

(two Triax subs are not in my fiscal cards)
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post #105 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

I have been following this debate for several days as I debated which subs to buy. I even asked your opinion which you gave and I respect, but why do you care so much what I or anyone else spends there money on? I still bought PSA subs and feel they will meet my needs. If PSA has truly misrepresented themselves so badly, the companies they have wronged could easily take legal action. Do you just like a good argument, why waste so much of your time on such a trivial issue?

Start the new year of right and just enjoy life. Does it really matter if somebody buys PSA products? How does it harm you and is it worth your effort to spend so much time and research to refute their claims?

I sincerely hope you have a Happy New Year, I know I will when my new XS30s arrive. They may not go as deep as the FV15HP, or play at as many decibels as some other sub, but does it really matter? I only really need them to beat my SVS PB12NSD, and I believe they will.

Lowell G makes some great points. The PSA, Hsu, Rythmik, Chase, Klipsch and other companies all make some great subwoofers. The few decibels that are touted form one sub over another means very little in the HT unless demo' ing certain tracks. Hitting 130 db is fine but, most of us that value our hearing can't do it for any long time period. Most of us don't even listen at Reference because it is to loud. If shaking is the goal, get some Butt kickers and save a lot of money and your ears, he he. The old saying, buy what you like and like what you buy will always hold true. In audio, there are diminishing returns compared to the dollar cost for small improvements.
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post #106 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 09:27 AM
 
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In audio, there are diminishing returns compared to the dollar cost for small improvements.

Just saying, subwoofers are in a category.....all by themselves. The rules for buying and integrating subwoofers are totally different than buying a speaker system.....and never the twain shall meet.

Over the years, I've found many false comments on the way to finding subwoofer bliss. One false comment is, movie or music, it's all the same. In the short, no it isn't. Not even close. Buy for music or buy for Home Theater if expecting to get the best for the genre. People can argue away on this point but any argument to the contrary, will fall on my intentionally deaf ears.

As to capability, it's not about reference or sonic competition of 130dB, 140dB or 150dB. In the case of Home Theater, it's about headroom and the ability of one's system to call on this available headroom, at a millisecond's notice and then go away so one have playback levels that fully rumble the room.....without need for butt kickers.

I've found subwoofers to be a complex interaction of subs, room acoustics, placement issues, EQ'g, budgets, WAF and unreasonable emotional expectations. The problem, each successive performance level runs the price up by a factor of two or three times the last performance level. It gets real expensive as one moves up into the upper performance levels and yes, those that have gone there, are not complaining. The point, unfortunately, in the case of subwoofers, one has to climb to fiscally lofty heights before reaching what one would call, the point of diminishing returns. By comparison, this is not true for receivers, speaker systems or blu-ray players.

(today, the price of flat screens is dictated more by size than image quality)

-
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post #107 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

....Over the years, I've found many false comments on the way to finding subwoofer bliss. One false comment is, movie or music, it's all the same. In the short, no it isn't. Not even close. Buy for music or buy for Home Theater if expecting to get the best for the genre. People can argue away on this point but any argument to the contrary, will fall on my intentionally deaf ears.....-

This is where I respectfully disagree (and that's OK wink.gif A variety of views can be a good thing, right?). My view is ideally a sub would output exactly what it's fed whether playing music or movies. The sub doesn't know if the sound is accompanied by a moving picture or not. wink.gif

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post #108 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just saying, subwoofers are in a category.....all by themselves. The rules for buying and integrating subwoofers are totally different than buying a speaker system.....and never the twain shall meet.

Over the years, I've found many false comments on the way to finding subwoofer bliss. One false comment is, movie or music, it's all the same. In the short, no it isn't. Not even close. Buy for music or buy for Home Theater if expecting to get the best for the genre. People can argue away on this point but any argument to the contrary, will fall on my intentionally deaf ears.

As to capability, it's not about reference or sonic competition of 130dB, 140dB or 150dB. In the case of Home Theater, it's about headroom and the ability of one's system to call on this available headroom, at a millisecond's notice and then go away so one have playback levels that fully rumble the room.....without need for butt kickers.

I've found subwoofers to be a complex interaction of subs, room acoustics, placement issues, EQ'g, budgets, WAF and unreasonable emotional expectations. The problem, each successive performance level runs the price up by a factor of two or three times the last performance level. It gets real expensive as one moves up into the upper performance levels and yes, those that have gone there, are not complaining. The point, unfortunately, in the case of subwoofers, one has to climb to fiscally lofty heights before reaching what one would call, the point of diminishing returns. By comparison, this is not true for receivers, speaker systems or blu-ray players.

(today, the price of flat screens is dictated more by size than image quality)

-

BeeMan I agree that subwoofer integration and performance in a room is much more complex than the other speakers. Good bass is tough to get right in the HT. I have seen and listen to some of the ultra expensive HT's and some of the modest one and like both. It is all about ones personal goals and taste. I can shake the room and sometime feel the hair on my arms moving but, that's not something that I really care about. SQ for me is the most important thing. I use my system mostly for music.smile.gif

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post #109 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

This is where I respectfully disagree (and that's OK wink.gif A variety of views can be a good thing, right?). My view is ideally a sub would output exactly what it's fed whether playing music or movies. The sub doesn't know if the sound is accompanied by a moving picture or not. wink.gif

Nor does a hammer care what type of nail it's hitting. Once onto what I'm sharing, you won't be able to go back.

Music is not a Home Theater score and a Home Theater score isn't music. They're not the same and they serve two completely different purposes. This is why I can't argue this point as folks are bias in their thinking (learned thinking) and I can't sway them from the error of their thinking because, they're bias to the reason of what they think they know. Oh well.
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This is why I can't argue this point as folks are bias in their thinking (learned thinking) and I can't sway them from the error of their thinking because, they're bias to the reason of what they think they know.
Your assertion begs the question. wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #111 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 12:07 PM
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Nor does a hammer care what type of nail it's hitting. Once onto what I'm sharing, you won't be able to go back.

Music is not a Home Theater score and a Home Theater score isn't music. They're not the same and they serve two completely different purposes. This is why I can't argue this point as folks are bias in their thinking (learned thinking) and I can't sway them from the error of their thinking because, they're bias to the reason of what they think they know. Oh well.

Our viewpoints are different, not "in error".

I really hope you didn't mean that post to come across as arrogant as it did (I'm right and everyone else is wrong).

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. Truce buddy. smile.gif

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Anyone have some good charts out there showing in room response from the PB12-NSD with max SPL shown? I know all rooms are different just curious to see an example.  I downloaded REW, but the seemingly most recommended mic appears to be out of stock everywhere...the umik-1 or some such thing as that?


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #113 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 01:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Our viewpoints are different, not "in error".

I really hope you didn't mean that post to come across as arrogant as it did (I'm right and everyone else is wrong).

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. Truce buddy. smile.gif

Sorry, absolutely I don't mean to come across as arrogant. Sorry it was perceived that way. But yes, I'm right and everybody else is wrong on this matter. How does one try to communicate a controversial or new concept without coming across as a tool? How does one standby the facts they have learned on a matter, knowing it flies in the face of doctrine? No, I do not wish to upset anybody but what am I do when I realize, everybody else is wrong regarding this concept?

How ever you would like me to phrase things when personal experience has raised my awareness on this issue above opinion and moved my awareness into the fact column?

My apologies to anybody I have caused upset to by sharing this concept.

A point of order: you posted: "Our viewpoints are different, not "in error".

Please reread my comments that your were responding to as I did try to explain my thinking regarding the bias nature of learned thinking.

Yet, I did not post what you posted in quote marks. What I did post was: "This is why I can't argue this point as folks are bias in their thinking (learned thinking) and I can't sway them from the error of their thinking because, they're bias to the reason of what they think they know."

And the "Oh well" was simply the acceptance of the fact that folks are going be in disagreement with me on this issue and there's nothing I can do to sway their thinking and I'm okay with this point.....oh well.

Again, my apologies for my comments causing you upset but I do stand by what I posted.

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post #114 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 01:27 PM
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Anyone have some good charts out there showing in room response from the PB12-NSD with max SPL shown? I know all rooms are different just curious to see an example.  I downloaded REW, but the seemingly most recommended mic appears to be out of stock everywhere...the umik-1 or some such thing as that?


Thought only seller of the UMIK-1 is minidsp.com http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement

The other usb mic often recommended I believe is the UMM-6 from parts-express.com

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post #115 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 01:27 PM
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" But yes, I'm right and everybody else is wrong on this matter"
 

Bee I got lost somewhere.  What is it you are right about? I got a bit lost and even backtracking I couldnt quite figure it out.  Curious what your viewpoint is.  Thanks.


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post #116 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 01:30 PM
 
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Bee I got lost somewhere.  What is it you are right about? I got a bit lost and even backtracking I couldnt quite figure it out.  Curious what your viewpoint is.  Thanks.

LOL! At this point, I'm not going claim to be right about nothin. biggrin.gif LOL!
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post #117 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 01:53 PM
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Ok then, what did you have before you got your Rythmiks?  Can you tell a big difference?


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post #118 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 02:02 PM
 
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Ok then, what did you have before you got your Rythmiks?  Can you tell a big difference?

I had a pair of Klipsch SW12 IIs that I upgraded the driver and radiators and a Klipsch RW-12D. They were positioned a bit differently and yes, there's a "HUGE" difference in overall output and depth of extension.

Not sure what information you're wanting me to share.
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post #119 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 03:52 PM
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Sorry, absolutely I don't mean to come across as arrogant. Sorry it was perceived that way. But yes, I'm right and everybody else is wrong on this matter. How does one try to communicate a controversial or new concept without coming across as a tool? How does one standby the facts they have learned on a matter, knowing it flies in the face of doctrine? No, I do not wish to upset anybody but what am I do when I realize, everybody else is wrong regarding this concept?

How ever you would like me to phrase things when personal experience has raised my awareness on this issue above opinion and moved my awareness into the fact column?

My apologies to anybody I have caused upset to by sharing this concept.

A point of order: you posted: "Our viewpoints are different, not "in error".

Please reread my comments that your were responding to as I did try to explain my thinking regarding the bias nature of learned thinking.

Yet, I did not post what you posted in quote marks. What I did post was: "This is why I can't argue this point as folks are bias in their thinking (learned thinking) and I can't sway them from the error of their thinking because, they're bias to the reason of what they think they know."

And the "Oh well" was simply the acceptance of the fact that folks are going be in disagreement with me on this issue and there's nothing I can do to sway their thinking and I'm okay with this point.....oh well.

Again, my apologies for my comments causing you upset but I do stand by what I posted.

-

Like I said, we'll just hve to agree to disagree....no biggie (after all were talking about subs, not world peace). smile.gif

I wasn't trying to change your position as I already knew where you stood. Nor was I suggesting that you not share your position. I was just sharing my view for others to consider.

As far as being biased in our thinking, isn't this true for everyone? wink.gif

Whatever method/criteria we used in search of a sub upgrade, I'm willing to bet we're both happy with each of our choices. biggrin.gif

Cheers friend. smile.gif

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post #120 of 174 Old 01-01-2014, 04:04 PM
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But yes, I'm right and everybody else is wrong on this matter.
........... eek.gif

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........... biggrin.gif
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