Subwoofer crawl + setting questions of SVS PB 12NSD + Yamaha RX V-359 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 12-09-2013, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

i have been searching but didn't find answer so i would like to ask you guys for solution or answers. The other reason is that i am complete newbie to Subs since i didn't have any before. So I eneded up with SVS PB-12NSD, amazing sub btw, but i would like to find best place for it. So i have read about sub crawl and give a try, downloaded recommended song from Audioholics. But what i am not sure is:

- in which mode should i do crawl? In 5.1 or 2.1? I think 2.1 since listenning to song and not watching the movie but i am not sure...
- if for above question answer will be 2.1 then do i have to crawl also in 5.1 mode?
- do i have to disconnect other channels (I have 5.1 actually) so only Sub is connected? Some articles mention to disconnect and some don't mention...

One more question - i have now old Yamaha RX V-359 and there is no autosetup available. Also not possible to set crossover frown.gif I plan an upgrade but until then i am not really sure how to setup both sub and Yamaha.

What i did is set:

Sub:
gain to 50%, low pass to "disable", phase to zero exactly as user manual says.
AVR Yamaha:
I set all speakers to Small ( I have Def tech Pro Monitor 1000 as front, Def tech Pro Monitor 800 as surround and ProCenter 2000.

There is not much more to set, just LFE Volume which i could set between -20dB and 0dB. So i set it to 0dB. Here is an extract from Yamaha's manual describing setup:

Bass out 1D BASS
Use this feature to select the speakers that output the LFE(low-frequency effect) and the low-frequency signals.Choices: SWFR (subwoofer), FRNT (front), BOTH• Select "SWFR" if you connected a subwoofer. TheLFE signals as well as the low-frequency signals ofother speakers set to "SML" or to "NON" are directedto the subwoofer.• Select "FRNT" if you did not connect a subwoofer.The LFE signals, the low-frequency signals of the frontleft and right channels, and the low-frequency signalsof other speakers set to "SML" or to "NON" are alldirected to the front left and right speakers regardlessof the "1B FRONT" setting.• Select "BOTH" if you connected a subwoofer. Thelow-frequency signals of any source are output fromthe subwoofer. The LFE signals as well as the low-frequency signals of other speakers set to "SML" or to"NON" are directed to the subwoofer. The low-frequency signals of the front left and right channelsare directed to the front left and right speakers and thesubwoofer regardless of the "1B FRONT" setting.

Low-frequency effect level
Use this feature to adjust the output level of the LFE (low- frequency effect) channel according to the capacity of your subwoofer or headphones. The LFE channel carries low-frequency special effects which are only added to certain scenes. This setting is effective only when this unit decodes Dolby Digital or DTS signals. Control range: –20 to 0 dB Control step: 1 dB Speaker SP LFE Adjusts the speaker LFE level. Headphone HP LFE Adjusts the headphone LFE level. Notes • Adjust the LFE level according to the capacity of your subwoofer or headphones. • Depending on the settings of "1D BASS", some signals may not be output at the SUBWOOFER OUTPUT jack. 2 SP DISTANCE 3 LFE LEVEL

Nothing more to set, no corssover, etc...

Thanks for helping me with these issues i face currently!

martin
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post #2 of 52 Old 12-09-2013, 05:22 AM
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- in which mode should i do crawl? In 5.1 or 2.1? I think 2.1 since listenning to song and not watching the movie but i am not sure...
- if for above question answer will be 2.1 then do i have to crawl also in 5.1 mode?
- do i have to disconnect other channels (I have 5.1 actually) so only Sub is connected? Some articles mention to disconnect and some don't mention...
Put your sub in the primary listening position, play some bass-heavy music ("Whoomp! (There It Is)" by Tag Team is a good one) or looping low-frequency test tones and crawl around the room. It doesn't matter if you listen in 2.1 or 5.1.

Disconnecting your speakers will help you focus on the bass, but if you're playing tones below the crossover frequency (likely set to ~80Hz in your case, when all speakers are set to "small"), it shouldn't make any difference on the sounds coming from the sub.
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post #3 of 52 Old 12-09-2013, 12:06 PM
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When I did the crawl I found it easier to disconnect my speakers and just listen to the bass, the other music was distracting me too much. 

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post #4 of 52 Old 12-09-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

When I did the crawl I found it easier to disconnect my speakers and just listen to the bass,
+1. The best method is to play the pink noise Audyssey or the like test tone through the sub only and wander the room with a sound meter.

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post #5 of 52 Old 12-09-2013, 08:45 PM
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Is the point of sub crawl to find the loudest position for it? Sorry I'm a little new to this.
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post #6 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 07:02 AM
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Is the point of sub crawl to find the loudest position for it? Sorry I'm a little new to this.

Yes, but do it the way Hopinater suggested. Doing the bass crawl with music won't be accurate as a certain type of music focuses on only a handful of bass frequencies. Subwoofer test tone is a wide band pink noise usually centred around 30/40-80Hz region with same energy in every octave.

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post #7 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Subwoofer test tone is a wide band pink noise usually centred around 30/40-80Hz region with same energy in every octave.
The actual 'energy', ie., power density, drops by 3dB with each one octave increase in frequency, the same as music program. The advantage of pink noise, as you noted, is that you hear the entire sub bass spectrum, not just a few notes, which, due to room modes, could lead you to put the sub in the wrong spot.

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post #8 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 09:10 AM
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The advantage of pink noise, as you noted, is that you hear the entire sub bass spectrum, not just a few notes, which, due to room modes, could lead you to put the sub in the wrong spot.

Sorry but I'm lost in the punctuation and can't put it in the right perspective. Can you explain what you meant? Are you referring to pink noise or 'few notes of music' causing poor sub placement due to room modes?

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post #9 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Sorry but I'm lost in the punctuation and can't put it in the right perspective. Can you explain what you meant? Are you referring to pink noise or 'few notes of music' causing poor sub placement due to room modes?
A few notes. Say the song is in the key of A and the bass is therefore hitting a 50Hz tone regularly. You might find a spot in the room where that 50Hz tone sounds great and put the sub there, not knowing that spot might also be a major null zone for other frequencies. Listening to pink noise is listening to every frequency, not just a few.

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post #10 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. The best method is to play the pink noise Audyssey or the like test tone through the sub only and wander the room with a sound meter.

Bill, when you say "wander" do you mean walk or crawl?
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post #11 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 01:24 PM
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Bill, when you say "wander" do you mean walk or crawl?
Walk, holding the meter down low.

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post #12 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 04:40 PM
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Walk, holding the meter down low.

Thanks. And the SPL meter on C setting, looking for the highest reading?
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post #13 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 04:48 PM
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Does it ever matter what direction u place the sub. Ie example it sounds geat in a corner. Place facing away or twards wall?
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post #14 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 07:14 PM
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Thanks. And the SPL meter on C setting, looking for the highest reading?

Slow/C should be the setting.

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post #15 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 07:15 PM
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Does it ever matter what direction u place the sub. Ie example it sounds geat in a corner. Place facing away or twards wall?

Orientation does not matter; placement does.
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post #16 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Orientation does not matter; placement does.
Orientation can have some effect. For instance, aimed at the wall acoustically filters above bandwidth harmonics, which don't like making 180 degree turns. But for the most part which way they aim isn't that important.
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post #17 of 52 Old 12-10-2013, 07:59 PM
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For instance, aimed at the wall acoustically filters above bandwidth harmonics

+1

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post #18 of 52 Old 12-12-2013, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Any idea of some pink noise where to get or something to work with as a test tone? I don't have Audyssey on my receiver unfortunately...frown.gif
Btw thanks for all advices, now clear to me more...
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post #19 of 52 Old 12-12-2013, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by embeathome View Post

Any idea of some pink noise where to get or something to work with as a test tone? I don't have Audyssey on my receiver unfortunately..
..
Your receiver probably has it anyway. It's what it plays as a test tone when you level match the speakers.

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post #20 of 52 Old 12-12-2013, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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If you mean the noise like ocean then yes, it has...is that the niose with which should i test or measure it?
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post #21 of 52 Old 12-12-2013, 02:08 PM
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If you mean the noise like ocean then yes, it has...is that the niose with which should i test or measure it?
Yes.

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post #22 of 52 Old 12-12-2013, 07:15 PM
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If you mean the noise like ocean then yes

The most accurate and easy to understand resemblance of subwoofer pink noise I've heard from anyone! Keep it up bud smile.gif

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post #23 of 52 Old 12-12-2013, 07:52 PM
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I recently did the sub crawl and just muted the 7 speakers on the receiver and connected the sub to my Oppo's Blu Ray's sub out. Hardwood floors are tough on the knees. I am now going to do it again from what I learned on this post using ocean noise. Not making fun, but that was a cool name and using pink noise makes more sense than the way I did it.

(LCD - Sony KDL - XBR4) (Receiver - Sony STR-DA4ES)(Blu Ray - Oppo BDP-83) (PS3)( Dish Hopper DVR With Sling) Speakers (L & R - Paradigm Studio 20) (Center -Paradigm CC-470) (Surrounds & Back Surrounds - Paradigm SA-15R in walls) (Subwoofer 1 - Sunfire HRS-12) (Subwoofer 2 - Paradigm PW-2100)
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post #24 of 52 Old 12-14-2013, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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It seems i have another little problem. My room setup didn't allow me to place surround speakers to the same distance from listening possition. One rear speaker is about 1,7m far, other rear is about 3.5m approx far from listetning possition. That shouldn't be a problem in general but my old Yamaha receiver doesn't allow me to set distance of each rear speaker separately (Yamaha RX V-359), the only option is to set them both, so Yamaha accepts only setup with same distance for both. I can only set level betwwen those 2 rears, i would say i could make some balance between them.
The problem is that if i use SPL meter, then whole measurement will be innacurate. What would you suggest to do?
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post #25 of 52 Old 12-14-2013, 03:34 PM
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What would you suggest to do?

Buy a newer/better receiver that allows distance setting for all speakers independently.

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post #26 of 52 Old 12-14-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by embeathome View Post

The problem is that if i use SPL meter, then whole measurement will be innacurate. What would you suggest to do?
Don't worry about it. All that's critical is that you use the level adjustment in the AVR so that the rears both sound the same volume at the LP. The importance of getting the distance settings exact is way overblown, assuming the surrounds aren't fifty feet behind you.

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post #27 of 52 Old 12-14-2013, 04:09 PM
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The importance of getting the distance settings exact is way overblown

I don't think so. Try changing the distance setting of any of the surrounds in All Channel Stereo mode. You would notice the ball of bass around you shift, which sounds very weird.

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post #28 of 52 Old 12-14-2013, 07:19 PM
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I don't think so. Try changing the distance setting of any of the surrounds in All Channel Stereo mode. You would notice the ball of bass around you shift, which sounds very weird.
I would never use or recommend all channel stereo mode so It's not a concern for me.

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post #29 of 52 Old 12-15-2013, 12:17 AM
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It is for me and for many who like ACS for music.

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post #30 of 52 Old 12-15-2013, 01:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Buy a newer/better receiver that allows distance setting for all speakers independently.

Yeah...smile.gif I am planning that but not possible now.

Btw...since it is little bit complex issue, what should be done first - sub crawl or measuring with SPL meter for all channels including sub? I think sub crawl but i am not really sure. I have been searching over here, google etc, but didn't find exact answer. So here are steps i think i will follow, if possible, correct me if i am wrong in the list below:

- placing sub to seating possition on sofa
- disconnecting all speakers except sub
- playing either test tone from Avia DVD or some heavy bass music and crawling the room, but without SPL meter.
- after that, if best place for sub is found, making calibration with SPL meter.

The only thing i am not sure about, is how to set level of sub on receiver and also how to set SPL meter to which decibel level in case i should rather use method with sub in seating possition and walking arrround the room with holding SPL metter down and what should it read at correct possition when choosing best sub place,
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