Need help choosing a sub for a 2.1 system. SVS SB-1000 for a 14X15 Bedroom? Layout picture attached! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 12-11-2013, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm putting together a new 2.1 system for my bedroom. Budget is about $1500 for an AVR, bookshelf speakers, and subwoofer. I'm looking to purchase a refurbished Denon 1713 from Accessories4less for $289 shipped. For front mains I'm considering Swan D2.1se+ ($580 shipped), KEF Q300 ($500), and Focal 706v ($449). Aesthetics are somewhat important to me and I really like the gloss finish the Swans come with. I've read that the Swans have pretty decent bass on their own. With the Swans, would the SVS SB-1000 be the best bet for my proposed setup or should I use more money on the sub and choose less expensive speakers?

50% HT / 50% Music. I listen to a lot of indie and electronic dance music.

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post #2 of 32 Old 12-11-2013, 11:41 PM
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For the size, I don't think the SB1000 would be bad, but for the price and performance you can do better. It depends on how loud you like it and what kind of performance you are after. If size is a factor, this Dayton Titanic 4 sealed 12" would stomp on the SB1000 and doesn't cost a lot more. I think it would crush the SB12 pretty handily as well. It is a kit, so you do have to do a little assembly, but it is very easy, just watch the video on the product page. If you really want something that will destroy you, here is one of the best bargains going, a 15" Titanic 4 kit with a 1 kW amp. That is what I would swing for. That beast will level your room and sound beautiful while doing it.

As for the speakers, I would go for the KEFs, I like the concentric drivers they use, it makes for a terrific off-axis response. I read somewhere around here that there are actually advantages of going with the Q100s over the 300s, you might do a search to check that out. If you want to save some money on some higher performing gloss black speakers, and a tiny bit of assembly doesn't bother you, check out this Dayton RS621 kit, very nice curved black gloss cabinet and high quality parts. The performance will be very good, especially for the price.

By the way, I like your room, movies must be amazing in there. What projector are you using may I ask?
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post #3 of 32 Old 12-12-2013, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply Shady!

What do you mean by "off-axis response?" Are you implying the Q100's would work well with the not so centered listening position of my bed? I plan on putting the speakers just under the projector screen, one on either side.

I'd prefer to go the pre-built route, I don't really trust myself to put together a kit even with a tutorial video. I've read that thread about the preference of Q100 over Q300. I'm seriously considering getting a pair of Q100 and a SB12-NSD. That would easily keep me under budget. But those glossy black Swans would match so nicely with a glossy black SB12. Gah what to do...

The projector I got is a LG pa75u. It's 720P, 700 lumen LED for just over $500.
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post #4 of 32 Old 12-12-2013, 05:13 AM
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Yes, by off-axis I mean they would sound better when you aren't right on their aim- but not being in their aim isn't the real reason to get speakers with good off axis-response. Most of what you hear in a normal room is acoustic reflections, not the original sound from the speaker itself. These reflections are sounds from the speaker being bounced off nearby surfaces and thus off their axis, and the worse the frequency response of these sounds, the worse the overall sound will be at your listening position. This is why it matters that your speakers have a good response, not just dead on in front of them, but off to the sides as well, especially on a horizontal axis which is what you will hear most of in a normal room. Coaxial (also called concentric and co-incidental) speakers like the KEF Qs are a great way of having the off-axis frequency response strongly resemble the on-axis response because the points of acoustic emission, the woofer and tweeter, are in the same place. The further away the acoustic emitters are from each other in a speaker, the worse the off-axis response tends to be. That is a bit simplified, but you could follow it as a general rule, and also I don't want to overwhelm you with technical detail if I haven't already.

As for the sub kit, you can get the same Dayton subs pre-built from Parts-express, here for the 12" and here for the 15", but they are $150 more. But assembly only takes an hour at the most, and I would trade an hour for $150 but that is just me. Trust me, watch the video, all you have to do is glue in the damping, screw in the driver, connect it to the amp, screw in the amp, and basically that is it, it is not a big project at all. To give you an idea of the performance advantage the Titanic 12" will have, the Titanic 4 has a 18 mm xmax, and the SB12 has about a 12 mm xmax (I believe), so the Dayton has 50% more air displacement than the SVS- and in kit form it is $20 less. That amounts to a very real performance gap for the 12"s alone, and with respect to the Titanic 15"s, it is a huge performance gap. Anyway, I don't mean to be pushing the Dayton's too hard, the SVS subs are a lot more convenient, and I can see the appeal in that.

One more thing, when you are sitting that close to such a large screen, moving up to a 1080p projector will bring a major improvement. You ought to consider selling it and moving up to a decent 1080p projector, they have really dropped in price, and a lot of good ones are out there for much less than $1k.
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post #5 of 32 Old 12-14-2013, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for clearing that up. I went to an audio store yesterday and demoed the Dali Zensor 1 and b&w 686. I really like the Dali's. Any idea how they compare to the Kef's? I couldn't find a local dealer that had them to demo. I'm in Los Angeles, didn't think it would be so hard unless I'm searching for the wrong things in Google/Yelp.

Yeah for now 720p is okay. I'd rather upgrade my sound before I do anything else.
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post #6 of 32 Old 12-14-2013, 04:10 PM
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The Swans might be one of the best values out right now. But they might need more room than you have to sound their best.

You can try the Kefs from Amazon and return them within 30 days if you don't like them.

Heck, even a pair of NHT Super Zero 2.1s would sound terrific with a SB12 in your room and they're on sale for $85 each. You don't need a speaker with a lot of bass when using such a good like the SB12 that is flat to 200hz or more.
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post #7 of 32 Old 12-14-2013, 09:31 PM
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I think your room would allow for either the SB-1000 or the PB-1000 or if you wanted to, step it up the SB12-NSD or the PB12-NSD. IMO sealed or ported would work well in your room.

 

I also agree with Kini.  With any of these subs I would let them carry the bass load rather than the speakers. I don't think speakers, no matter how good, can compare to a high quality sub for bass (IMO).

 

I was looking at those Swans myself and found them intriguing. If you get them I hope you post an update and let us know what you think. Actually, I hope you do that regardless of what you decide. Good luck with your decisions. :)

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post #8 of 32 Old 12-15-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JTSO23 View Post

With the Swans, would the SVS SB-1000 be the best bet for my proposed setup or should I use more money on the sub and choose less expensive speakers?

The SB1000 and SB12NSD are perhaps the finest two small subwoofer you can get in that price range, with excellent sound quality and bullet-proof limiters. Neither of them would get 'stomped' or 'crushed' by any kit, so don't let that dissuade you.

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post #9 of 32 Old 12-15-2013, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

The SB1000 and SB12NSD are perhaps the finest two small subwoofer you can get in that price range, with excellent sound quality and bullet-proof limiters. Neither of them would get 'stomped' or 'crushed' by any kit, so don't let that dissuade you.

+1 What many don’t realize is what it takes to mimic (some) of the options over here in ID. Take the PB12-PLUS for instance. A guy can’t go out and buy a nice 12” put it into a enclosure and throw a 1000 watts to it and come up with a PLUS. He would be hard pressed to do it with a 15”. I see 18” builds all the time that don’t although lower extension. Yeah he can go with two-four 12”- 15” – 18”s (depending on the driver) for the same cost, but coming up with a sub using the same size single driver is quite the challenge. GOOD LUCK! wink.gif
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post #10 of 32 Old 12-15-2013, 07:13 PM
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+1 What many don’t realize is what it takes to mimic (some) of the options over here in ID. Take the PB12-PLUS for instance. A guy can’t go out and buy a nice 12” put it into a enclosure and throw a 1000 watts to it and come up with a PLUS. He would be hard pressed to do it with a 15”. I see 18” builds all the time that don’t although lower extension. Yeah he can go with two-four 12”- 15” – 18”s (depending on the driver) for the same cost, but coming up with a sub using the same size single driver is quite the challenge. GOOD LUCK! wink.gif

 

Steve that's a great post with some seriously straight forward information. I think it's great that even though you yourself are DIY you don't post with an overly skewed bias. DIY is great and someday I might actually jump into it but I don't think it's something to approach on a whim with the idea that's it's an easy way to save money on subwoofers. It seems a little silly to me to think that anyone could casually throw together a subwoofer kit and be able to beat these ID subwoofers that have been engineered and built by professionals. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I would think it would take some serious dedication and effort. It seems to me you get out of DIY what you put into DIY.

 

So I'm happy to see that your post seems to verify this. Sometimes I get the feeling that some guys are suggesting that all anyone has to do is go out and buy a subwoofer kit, throw it together and they will have a sub that will blow away most ID subs. What they seem to leave out is the commitment to the project that will be required.

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post #11 of 32 Old 12-15-2013, 07:56 PM
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+1 What many don’t realize is what it takes to mimic (some) of the options over here in ID. Take the PB12-PLUS for instance. A guy can’t go out and buy a nice 12” put it into a enclosure and throw a 1000 watts to it and come up with a PLUS. He would be hard pressed to do it with a 15”. I see 18” builds all the time that don’t although lower extension. Yeah he can go with two-four 12”- 15” – 18”s (depending on the driver) for the same cost, but coming up with a sub using the same size single driver is quite the challenge. GOOD LUCK! wink.gif

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Steve that's a great post with some seriously straight forward information. I think it's great that even though you yourself are DIY you don't post with an overly skewed bias. DIY is great and someday I might actually jump into it but I don't think it's something to approach on a whim with the idea that's it's an easy way to save money on subwoofers. It seems a little silly to me to think that anyone could casually throw together a subwoofer kit and be able to beat these ID subwoofers that have been engineered and built by professionals. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I would think it would take some serious dedication and effort. It seems to me you get out of DIY what you put into DIY.

So I'm happy to see that your post seems to verify this. Sometimes I get the feeling that some guys are suggesting that all anyone has to do is go out and buy a subwoofer kit, throw it together and they will have a sub that will blow away most ID subs. What they seem to leave out is the commitment to the project that will be required.

You both make valid points.

Also for the OP aesthetics are important, DIY cost will rise when you move to a gloss black/wood finished cabinet. The peace of mind that you buy with a sub from say SVS with their warranty also should be considered in the final price of any build. Regardless of the maker every brand has a x% fail rate.

B Stock SB12 would be my recommendation ( still get 5 year warranty, save about $70 and most are like brand new) . There are not any available now but that changes day to day.
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post #12 of 32 Old 12-15-2013, 08:16 PM
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You both make valid points.

Also for the OP aesthetics are important, DIY cost will rise when you move to a gloss black/wood finished cabinet. The peace of mind that you buy with a sub from say SVS with their warranty also should be considered in the final price of any build. Regardless of the maker every brand has a x% fail rate.

B Stock SB12 would be my recommendation ( still get 5 year warranty, save about $70 and most are like brand new) . There are not any available now but that changes day to day.

Great point about the warranty. Didn't even think of it.


Yeah, that would be a great choice for a sub as well.

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post #13 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 12:23 AM
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The SB1000 and SB12NSD are perhaps the finest two small subwoofer you can get in that price range, with excellent sound quality and bullet-proof limiters. Neither of them would get 'stomped' or 'crushed' by any kit, so don't let that dissuade you.

In fact their limiters are so bulletproof that the SB12 manages to achieve some of the lowest mid bass output measurements of all subs tested at data-bass.com. There are admirable aspects to the design approaches SVS uses but it comes at the expense of dynamic range. You are saying that a subwoofer with much less xmax, much less sensitivity, a less powerful amplifier, and in a smaller enclosure will be a match for something like the Titanic 4? That is a flatly misleading suggestion.
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post #14 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 06:18 AM
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This is SVS in it’s purest form imo and a decision that has served them quite well. It’s a design choice they repeatedly make and one that many see as very positive including Josh Ricci over at data-bass.com who’s site was just mentioned.. lets see what he (Josh Ricci) has to say..
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Here is yet another solid product from SVS. This sub is very small and very light as well making it easy to place and easy to maneuver. Also the finish and build quality is very good as are the components used. This results in a very high WAF rating for this sub. The price is quite reasonable and SVS backs it with a very generous warranty. Despite being a rather small subwoofer the SB12-NSD leverages its Peerless XLS derived driver and 400w amplifier into a very respectable performance. This is a great small to medium room sub to consider for those with WAF or space challenges.To read a full length comprehensive write up on this subwoofer, see the Audioholics review here.

The SB12-NSD exhibits excellent response linearity and is within a 6dB window from 24-200Hz. there is some EQ and signal shaping involved to get a sealed sub this small into such an extended response shape and this shows up at higher output levels where the low frequency output is limited earlier, but the limiting is applied so well that it is barely noticeable and the unit will not produce any overtly bad noises despite what signals are put into it. The peak output levels are not earth shattering but decent considering the size of the unit. Distortion results are good with the usual increase at deep bass frequencies seen with a sealed enclosure. Some group delay increase is seen near 25Hz but this is likely due to the DSP signal processing used. It was never audible during the listening sessions. A strong all around performance from such a small subwoofer.

In this review some aspects of their (SVS) design choice are explained and commented on. http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/hall-of-fame-svs-sb12-nsd-and-pb12-nsd.html#!/2012/05/hall-of-fame-svs-sb12-nsd-and-pb12-nsd.html

Imo SVS never did intend for the SB12-NSD to be a spl drag racer or a boomer, but a good affordable sub in a small package priced accordingly and comparatively in what they offer keeping their design values in mind. A good case could be made that for your $$ a guy could buy two. This is in no way a slam on another product, it’s a opinion that I have concluded would serve me well if I were in the market for a sub with certain criteria's forefront in my decision. If certain criteria's weren’t involved, size, $$, room dimensions/cf to name a few, I would opt for two, or another choice in the SVS line if going the SVS route. If a guy wants more, SVS will be coming out with a more robust sealed offering in the near future. http://sv-sound.com/produkte/compact-cabinet/sb-2000.php

EDIT> Be sure to hit translate to English at the top of the page, $$ translates out to about a $1000. +-3 down to 18hz.

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post #15 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 06:50 AM
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In fact their limiters are so bulletproof that the SB12 manages to achieve some of the lowest mid bass output measurements of all subs tested at data-bass.com. There are admirable aspects to the design approaches SVS uses but it comes at the expense of dynamic range. You are saying that a subwoofer with much less xmax, much less sensitivity, a less powerful amplifier, and in a smaller enclosure will be a match for something like the Titanic 4? That is a flatly misleading suggestion.

Still a better suggestion than a sub that bottoms out in the low 30s.
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post #16 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 08:19 AM
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Room is 2,940 cu.ft. SB-1000 might cut it but, IMO, the SB12-NSD would be the better choice. Or maybe a Rythmik LV12R.

+1 to the suggestion of going 1080p. 720p at 120" from less than 14' away isn't going to look very good.
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post #17 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 08:25 AM
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In fact their limiters are so bulletproof that the SB12 manages to achieve some of the lowest mid bass output measurements of all subs tested at data-bass.com. There are admirable aspects to the design approaches SVS uses but it comes at the expense of dynamic range. You are saying that a subwoofer with much less xmax, much less sensitivity, a less powerful amplifier, and in a smaller enclosure will be a match for something like the Titanic 4? That is a flatly misleading suggestion.

'misleading' is your bold proclamation that the Dayton kit would lay waste to the SVS's subwoofers, when in reality you have probably never heard any of the 3 subs you mentioned. Tough to draw a conclusion and make such definite statements without the benefit of being exposed to them. The Dayton kit may be very nice, and without having heard it myself I honestly can't say, but realistically how is a suspect amp with zero DSP tuning dropped into a generic enclosure -- which might not even be ideal for the driver -- supposed to even compete with a subwoofer designed in a holistic manner? And frankly, at this point I think most people on AVS are well aware of your utter disdain for all things SVS, and by extension PSA as well, so the obvious bias would have to be factored in to your assessment too.

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post #18 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 09:36 AM
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but realistically how is a suspect amp with zero DSP tuning dropped into a generic enclosure -- which might not even be ideal for the driver -- supposed to even compete with a subwoofer designed in a holistic manner? And frankly, at this point I think most people on AVS are well aware of your utter disdain for all things SVS, and by extension PSA as well, so the obvious bias would have to be factored in to your assessment too.

The Dayton kit is not just a bunch of arbitrarily chosen slapped together parts like you portray. The enclosure volume is correct for that driver, as is the amplification. Also you make DSP tuning sound like some kind of huge advantage. The T/S parameters make it very clear which unit is going to be more powerful, and not by just a little. Also, nice touch topping your post off with a personal attack, but it should be mentioned that I am only recommending what's likely to be the best performer based on T/S parameters and third party measurements, whereas you actually have a reason to be tilted toward certain brands.
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post #19 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 12:13 PM
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The Dayton kit is not just a bunch of arbitrarily chosen slapped together parts like you portray. The enclosure volume is correct for that driver, as is the amplification. Also you make DSP tuning sound like some kind of huge advantage.

No it's not, it was thought out.. the enclosure itself is the limiter. Although it will go loud, it suffers in extension and that was their design choice with the driver it chose. The PEQ/dsp has little effect in boost down low due to the size of the enclosure.

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post #20 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 01:14 PM
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No it's not, it was thought out.. the enclosure itself is the limiter. Although it will go loud, it suffers in extension and that was their design choice with the driver it chose. The PEQ/dsp has little effect in boost down low due to the size of the enclosure.

Steve it looks like you are arguing against something I haven't said. I'm not exactly sure what you are disputing here.
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post #21 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 01:35 PM
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Steve it looks like you are arguing against something I haven't said. I'm not exactly sure what you are disputing here.
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In fact their limiters are so bulletproof that the SB12 manages to achieve some of the lowest mid bass output measurements of all subs tested at data-bass.com.

What you fail to communicate is the limiter the enclosure applies to the extension on the kit. The SVS option price point is less and the design runs true with SVS's philosophy which many appreciate in short.

EDIT> There is also basically nothing (ID) to compare it to in size and price-point over at data.

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post #22 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 02:13 PM
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What you fail to communicate is the limiter the enclosure applies to the extension on the kit. The SVS option price point is less and the design runs true with SVS's philosophy which many appreciate in short.

EDIT> There is also basically nothing (ID) to compare it to in size and price-point over at data.

I don't see how the enclosure is limiting the extension on the kit, could you explain that a bit more. WinISD isn't telling me anything weird. Besides the Dayton amp probably has a rumble filter which knocks off everything below 18 Hz anyway, but these are sealed subs so who cares about subsonic bass.
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post #23 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 03:44 PM
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Sure, but I need to book. I'll try to post a sim of the 12" 15" kit also against the little sub that could or will??

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post #24 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 05:44 PM
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The Dayton kit is not just a bunch of arbitrarily chosen slapped together parts like you portray. The enclosure volume is correct for that driver, as is the amplification. Also you make DSP tuning sound like some kind of huge advantage. The T/S parameters make it very clear which unit is going to be more powerful, and not by just a little. Also, nice touch topping your post off with a personal attack, but it should be mentioned that I am only recommending what's likely to be the best performer based on T/S parameters and third party measurements, whereas you actually have a reason to be tilted toward certain brands.

DSP tuning is clearly a huge advantage, especially in a sealed subwoofer, something that goes without saying I'm afraid. The 'personal attack' is just a statement of fact, and your posting history bears that out. It's undeniable. And what's this alleged reason I have to be "tilted" towards certain brands? I've never had an allegiance to any manufacture.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #25 of 32 Old 12-16-2013, 06:54 PM
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I’m afraid I find your last post a little disingenuous shady and are most likely in your mode?? What I meant to imply was excursion in the lower freq’s and how power relates to the driver, and how the driver will unload unless limited in some way. Anyway when I build a sub I go crying to a few other members that forget more than what I know (although maybe I have built more subs??) one being Scott Simonian.. He was gracious enough to do a couple sims for me regarding the two kits you have brought up. The sims do not reflect the filters built into the kits though. Unibox is not able to sim the filter correctly. Anyway Like I mentioned way earlier in the thread things don’t always go the way one would think in putting a sub together or it’s performance. A sim does give us a good idea as you know though. If you go on over to data and bring up the SB12-NSD and ad +6dB to it’s numbers to account for two meter ground plane versus one meter ground plane in Unibox/WinISD, you will notice the SB12-NSD hangs with and exceeds the 12” kit you deem far superior. Drop a couple dB’s or so off down low for the filter and the NSD does better yet. Yes a sim is a sim, but I would think that any disparity could be left unsaid? Remember the kit looks worse and costs more, not to mention warranty, free trial and friendly service badge that SVS carries. I have had the MKIII 15” kit once to compare it to a couple other subs and yeah for the $$ it’s a option, but a option some will and will not be interested in. Certainly not on the level that you tout it or them.


http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=80&mset=86


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post #26 of 32 Old 12-17-2013, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

DSP tuning is clearly a huge advantage, especially in a sealed subwoofer, something that goes without saying I'm afraid. The 'personal attack' is just a statement of fact, and your posting history bears that out. It's undeniable. And what's this alleged reason I have to be "tilted" towards certain brands? I've never had an allegiance to any manufacture.

Signal processing isn't breaking the laws of physics. The performance of a sub is largely a matter of the driver's physical capabilities in a certain enclosure and amplification. DSP can restrain or shape behavior within those limits, and that's it. It is not a magical spell for better performance.

As for biases, you never miss a chance to let everyone know I am merely one-sided and so should not be taken seriously, yet you have never pointed to anything specific which demonstrates unfair criticism on my part. If you want everyone to write me off for favoritism, you could at least back your accusations with facts instead of some vague comment about posting history. As for yourself, I'd like to see you give anything other than effusive praise to every subwoofer in your reviews, even the saddest specimens. Of course, if you did, companies might think twice about sending you their subwoofers, as you would no longer be useful as a blurb generator.
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post #27 of 32 Old 12-17-2013, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I’m afraid I find your last post a little disingenuous shady and are most likely in your mode?? What I meant to imply was excursion in the lower freq’s and how power relates to the driver, and how the driver will unload unless limited in some way. Anyway when I build a sub I go crying to a few other members that forget more than what I know (although maybe I have built more subs??) one being Scott Simonian.. He was gracious enough to do a couple sims for me regarding the two kits you have brought up. The sims do not reflect the filters built into the kits though. Unibox is not able to sim the filter correctly. Anyway Like I mentioned way earlier in the thread things don’t always go the way one would think in putting a sub together or it’s performance. A sim does give us a good idea as you know though. If you go on over to data and bring up the SB12-NSD and ad +6dB to it’s numbers to account for two meter ground plane versus one meter ground plane in Unibox/WinISD, you will notice the SB12-NSD hangs with and exceeds the 12” kit you deem far superior. Drop a couple dB’s or so off down low for the filter and the NSD does better yet. Yes a sim is a sim, but I would think that any disparity could be left unsaid? Remember the kit looks worse and costs more, not to mention warranty, free trial and friendly service badge that SVS carries. I have had the MKIII 15” kit once to compare it to a couple other subs and yeah for the $$ it’s a option, but a option some will and will not be interested in. Certainly not on the level that you tout it or them.

I re-inputed the driver parameters and reran the sims in winISD for the Titanic 12", and according to winISD you are correct. I have to admit to being a bit stumped here, I might have forgot to correct for 2 m before. What's strange is the NSD is actually giving slightly better performance almost across the board, and I don't understand why. The Titanic 4 12" has a lot more xmax, more sd, more BL, greater sensitivity, it seems to be a lot more powerful driver on the face of the specs, so what gives? Some things to keep in mind is the T/S parameters are changing from the spec sheet to the company product page to the PE sales page, which one is correct!? What's more is the driver that the NSD is purportedly based on, the Peerless XXLS also changes its specs from the spec sheet to the PE sales page. I ran those sims too. Anyway I really want to know what I am missing here. One thing though, the Titanic 4 12" kit is cheaper than the SB12, take a look, $630 shipped vs $650 shipped.
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post #28 of 32 Old 12-17-2013, 06:21 AM
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I re-inputed the driver parameters and reran the sims in winISD for the Titanic 12", and according to winISD you are correct. I have to admit to being a bit stumped here, I might have forgot to correct for 2 m before.

Been there, done that myself. It’s a common mistake, but it’s the first thing of interest after comparing for some time. To many it doesn’t matter to a degree or not at all, but a few are looking to do the most they can within certain parameters.

What's strange is the NSD is actually giving slightly better performance almost across the board, and I don't understand why. The Titanic 4 12" has a lot more xmax, more sd, more BL, greater sensitivity, it seems to be a lot more powerful driver on the face of the specs, so what gives?

That’s a good question. I could go on some here but uncomfortable doing so. They do have there tricks though. It can be as simple as where to place a... What it boils down to is many of these designs (especially some) deserve much more respect than what some are willing to give. I have seen you make comments regarding certain drivers that you (or I) know very little about and how to employ them in the most efficient manner. I do know there is another side of the coin that you don’t realize in your assessment though.

Some things to keep in mind is the T/S parameters are changing from the spec sheet to the company product page to the PE sales page, which one is correct!? What's more is the driver that the NSD is purportedly based on, the Peerless XXLS also changes its specs from the spec sheet to the PE sales page. I ran those sims too. Anyway I really want to know what I am missing here. One thing though, the Titanic 4 12" kit is cheaper than the SB12, take a look, $630 shipped vs $650 shipped.

Yes I know. Another thing to keep in mind is things do change and we won’t know anything about it and thus rendering Data’s numbers coming in on the low side. Yeah I must have brought up the finished kit or something? Anyway thinking about things realistically, I don’t see the kit coming in close to the value of the SVS offering myself.

There are some good budget drivers a guy can do quite well with..

EDIT> I mentioned Scotty earlier, do you think he cares about certain criteria's? wink.gif http://www.avsforum.com/t/1505963/heres-a-lil-tease-of-whats-to-come

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post #29 of 32 Old 12-17-2013, 08:19 AM
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I thought the key difference might have been inductance since the Titanic 4 has so much and the Peerless XXLS has so little, so when I ran the sim using the Titanic's parameters but with the XXLS' Le, the results were about the same except for some deep bass improvement. I would still like to see the Titanic 4 tested, although I doubt that will ever happen. I looked at some other Le specs for comparison, what is interesting is the $500 TC Sounds Axis 12Q1 has double the inductance of the Titanic 4, it must be from all that voice coil. I ran that sim in winISD, and it only managed to edge out the SB12 below 30 Hz, above that it did no better, even with 1 kW of power, I guess that's due to its lower sensitivity. Now that I think about it, how can a driver with such a large magnet and so much VC have such low sensitivity, the moving assembly mass maybe? I'll have to take these questions to the DIY forum.

As for scott's system, holy ****, it looks like he is out to build the most powerful home theater system in the world. The sensitivity of that system is going to be through the roof. However I would say he is fussy over certain driver criteria, he is using the JBL 2226, one of the best mid bass drivers in existence, and those sub drivers look like Mach 5 UXLs if I am not mistaken. I would not want to deal with getting the crossover right though, that is going to be a serious PIA, even using whatever fancy active digital crossover he is using.
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post #30 of 32 Old 12-17-2013, 08:54 AM
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^^^ That’s a good idea. You’re going to find out that the can of inductance by itself isn’t your final answer though.

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