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-   -   I've searched the threads but I am still in need of subwoofer advice (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1505359-i-ve-searched-threads-but-i-am-still-need-subwoofer-advice.html)

cfgenesis 12-13-2013 06:26 AM

Mainly because some of the threads are outdated, and because I have seen conflicting advice on similar questions to mine I am going to ask anyway.

 

I have a dedicated theater room that is 12 x 24 with 8' ceilings, so about 2300 cubic feet.

 

My budget on a sub can't exceed $500.

 

My equipment specs are below, and my listening is about 50/50 music and movies.  My music preferences are almost exclusively rock (progressive, classic, 80's alternative, and a little bit of modern).

 

I have read threads advocating two subs over one, and some strong arguments for two Dayton Audio 1200's.  At a total cost on Amazon of just over $200, that sounds pretty damn good, but I don't want to sacrifice clarity on the lower frequencies if one, more high quality, sub would be better.

 

What would you do if you were me?

 

Thanks!


BeeMan458 12-13-2013 06:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post

What would you do if you were me?

Increase you budget five fold and take time to check out the first couple of posts in the ULF thread. Also, take some time to check out the two main budget minded subwoofer threads currently running as there's a boatload of information to be found in each of these threads to help guide you in your final decision.

LastButNotLeast 12-13-2013 07:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Increase you budget five fold....

If only we could all do that. 

Two will be better than one, especially in a room that size, because it will reduce nulls (smoother response).

That said, $500 total won't get you bone-crunching bass. Decent bass can be had, though. Go to 15":

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1500-15-150-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-634

Or get a kit and put it together yourself to save some money.


BeeMan458 12-13-2013 07:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

If only we could all do that. 

Agreed, but in my opinion, a realistic response, requires a realistic response. That said, that's why I suggested the threads that I did, so as to help improve awareness as to possibilities within the individual's stated budget.

Your linked Dayton recommendation is an excellent recommendation.

Questions like that of the OP, tell me, aside from a single purchase opinion, one is seriously in need of more information . Maybe they can extend their budget and purchase something more robust like a pair of SVS SB-1000s or a pair of Rythmik LV12R. A lot more than the stated budget but in my opinion, money well spent.

-

flickhtguru 12-13-2013 07:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post

Mainly because some of the threads are outdated, and because I have seen conflicting advice on similar questions to mine I am going to ask anyway.

I have a dedicated theater room that is 12 x 24 with 8' ceilings, so about 2300 cubic feet.

My budget on a sub can't exceed $500.

My equipment specs are below, and my listening is about 50/50 music and movies.  My music preferences are almost exclusively rock (progressive, classic, 80's alternative, and a little bit of modern).

I have read threads advocating two subs over one, and some strong arguments for two Dayton Audio 1200's.  At a total cost on Amazon of just over $200, that sounds pretty damn good, but I don't want to sacrifice clarity on the lower frequencies if one, more high quality, sub would be better.

What would you do if you were me?

Thanks!

If you can spend $500 now and save up $500 for later. I would purchase 1 $500 sub now and when you have another $500 purchase a 2nd identical sub.

I would look at the SVS PB1000 for $499 shipped - 2 of those would be pretty decent in your rom.

If you can wait see if Outlaw Audio has a Christmas sale. For Black Friday Outlaw had the LFM-1 Plus on sale for $499 shipped which is the best bang for your buck at the $500 price point. I bought 2 LFM-1 Pluses 2 years ago for $499 each shipped. I am in a 20' X 15' X 8' room with a 4' opening floor to ceiling to the rest of the house. I run them in max entension 1 port plugged mode and I love them.

cfgenesis 12-13-2013 07:59 AM

Thanks for the advice, I recently purchased the plasma, the Klipsch RF's, and the pioneer receiver so the budget, at least as far as my wife is concerned is pretty much exhausted (I'm planning on just slipping in the receiver and figuring my wife won't notice lol).  I think I would probably be divorced if I spent $2,500 on a sub.  The two 1500's sounds like a pretty good option.


flickhtguru 12-13-2013 09:31 AM

Hey I totally understand I upgraded my stuff over time and only purchased stuff if it was on a really good sale. But one thing to consider is you have a nice TV and really nice speakers. Don't skimp on the sub, cuz believe it or not its the heart and soul of your HT system. Good, clean, tight, deep, and articulate bass is amazing and you will only understand once you hear it. Instead of just hearing a constant rumbling or booming, you will hear and feel every bass drum kick and every pluck of the bass guitar. Explosions in a movie will have a tactile presence that is a true delight a gun shot can feel like a punch in the chest. Now I'm saying all this and I don't want you to have your expectations out of wack because your room and placement of the sub(s) and the listening position is critical to the way the bass will sound.

BeeMan458 12-13-2013 09:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Now I'm saying all this and I don't want you to have your expectations out of wack because your room and placement of the sub(s) and the listening position is critical to the way the bass will sound.

Yep, build them up and then knock them back down. tongue.gif

cfgenesis 12-13-2013 11:53 AM

The SB-1000 looks like a pretty good sub but I definitely can't swing two right now.  How would one perform for the short term?


cfgenesis 12-13-2013 12:36 PM

And now looking into them I see there is a PB-1000 as well, with different benefits for each one.  I hope my head doesn't explode before I actually make a decision!


BeeMan458 12-13-2013 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post

And now looking into them I see there is a PB-1000 as well, with different benefits for each one.  I hope my head doesn't explode before I actually make a decision!

There's a good chance that it will.....but don't worry, it grows back quickly. tongue.gif

One lesser subwoofer is going perform less than a greater subwoofer. The PB-1000 is a budget minded subwoofer and is going perform in a room your size, like a budget minded subwoofer. I'm not trying to be discouraging but trying to keep it real so you won't buy and meet with disappointment. If buying one and later adding a second one, if you can, go with a LV12R. A few dollars more but you will have more output.

Have you taken the time to check through the budget subwoofer threads? There's a boatload of good information there to help inform you which is the best direction to go and why with the budget you're working with. In this case, you're better off taking a few days to drag through a few of the information threads to help bring you up to speed.

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ainsworth 12-13-2013 12:59 PM

If $500 is strict limit, u could try the PB-1000. SVS has 45 day in home trial period. If u don't like it, send it back? IMHO

GTA Beancounter 12-13-2013 01:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post

And now looking into them I see there is a PB-1000 as well, with different benefits for each one.  I hope my head doesn't explode before I actually make a decision!

cfgenesis, I was/am in a similar boat to you. Our musical tastes are similar and it sounds like we have the same objectives.

I decided to get a single PB-1000 for my dedicated 2700 cubic foot room with the expectation that I'd eventually get a second PB-1000 and/or an antimode (my receiver does not EQ sub frequencies).

The experts can chime in at any time but I'd like to put forward the following opinions based on my experience that may help you out:

1) A single sub CAN sound great at the main listening position. The primary benefit of two or more subs will be to improve frequency response at more listening positions. In my room, now that I have the sub set up optimally for my main listening position I find that the secondary position is decent but not quite as good as it is close to a boundary. If I have a large group coming over I drop the sub output on my AVR by a couple points and find a compromise that works pretty well between the two positions, not optimal but I suppose optimal in my scenario would cost $500 to $1500 for another 1 to 3 additional PB-1000s. The lesson in my case is that two subs would make it less likely that I'd have to compromise between the two listening positions but usually its just my family in the HTR and the four of us (two little ones) sit on the couch in the MLP anyway so it works great for us 90% of the time.

2) Your room is critical and its hard to know how a sub will perform until you have it in place. In my case I have very strong peaks at 40HZ and 80HZ and the original desired MLP had us in a bit of a null. Depending on what is happening in your room you may find that incremental dollars would be better spent on equalization, an extra sub, room treatments, or furniture (if you have to move things around).

3) In your room the SB-1000 would be surely lacking vs. the PB-1000. The difference in output would be tangible in that size of a room I think.

In my case I decided to go with the single PB-1000 sub corner loaded to maximize room gain, and I've added an antimode 8033 Cinema. This combined with moving the couch that is in the MLP forward by about 14" has made me VERY happy. Even my wife has noticed.

I may still add a 2nd PB-1000 but I'm very happy for the time being with my single sub.

For a $500 max budget I really think you are best getting the single PB-1000, obviously spending more will give you more performance and DIY gives you more cost effective options. But you really can't go wrong with the PB-1000.

cfgenesis 12-13-2013 02:14 PM

Thanks for the input.  I was leaning towards the PB-1000 but don't want to sacrifice the detail on music listening.  However, I read a side-by-side comparison of both which said that the PB does fine with music and is head and shoulders above the SB.

 

People on other threads have raved about the PA-120.  Anyone have an opinion on this one vs. the PB-1000?


Pitaface 12-13-2013 05:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post I hope my head doesn't explode before I actually make a decision!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


There's a good chance that it will.....but don't worry, it grows back quickly. tongue.gif

 

I'm in the market to add a sub to my system.  I think I've read every thread about "budget" subs.  There seems to be an overwhelming opinion that if you have $500, skip a few fast-food meals out and up the budget to the Rythmik LV12R at $589.  This is not from any personal experience, but at the moment, based on the amount of posts here that I've read encouraging that, it's the direction I plan on going after I recuperate from all the other spending I've had to do lately.  I'll try it out and add a second later if I need to.


BeeMan458 12-13-2013 05:31 PM

That's the one. I couldn't find a clip that was only about Jeebs getting his head shot off and growing back. biggrin.gif

Hopinater 12-14-2013 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post
 

The SB-1000 looks like a pretty good sub but I definitely can't swing two right now.  How would one perform for the short term?


With a room your size I recommend going ported over sealed. Sealed works well in smaller rooms where the longest dimension is shorter than 15 to 18 ft where the room itself can provide cabin gain to help the sub with it's output. If you go sealed in large rooms then you have to add more subs to adequately pressurize the room. So I wouldn't look at the SB-1000 in your case.

 

However, I think the PB-1000 would be a good choice especially if you can add a second one down the road.

 

Quote:
 

3) In your room the SB-1000 would be surely lacking vs. the PB-1000. The difference in output would be tangible in that size of a room I think.

 

In my case I decided to go with the single PB-1000 sub corner loaded to maximize room gain, and I've added an antimode 8033 Cinema. This combined with moving the couch that is in the MLP forward by about 14" has made me VERY happy. Even my wife has noticed.

 

I may still add a 2nd PB-1000 but I'm very happy for the time being with my single sub.

 

For a $500 max budget I really think you are best getting the single PB-1000, obviously spending more will give you more performance and DIY gives you more cost effective options. But you really can't go wrong with the PB-1000.

 

Obviously I agree with beancounter's advice.


cfgenesis 12-14-2013 09:48 AM

What is your opinion on how the PB-1000 performs with music?  The SB-1000 is said to perform better, but if the PB-1000 still does well it is worth it.  I'm also upgrading from an 18 year old sub I bought from some guys out of the back of their white van when I was too young and naive to realize what that entailed!


Bill Fitzmaurice 12-14-2013 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post

Thanks for the input.  I was leaning towards the PB-1000 but don't want to sacrifice the detail on music listening.  However, I read a side-by-side comparison of both which said that the PB does fine with music and is head and shoulders above the SB.
You've fallen for the music versus HT trap, which is more mythical than the unicorn and the honest politician. First, subs don't have detail, that occurs in the frequencies above the subwoofer passband. If a subwoofer is accurate with HT it's accurate with music, if it's accurate with music it's accurate with HT. If it's not accurate it won't sound good with any source. As for the sealed versus ported nonsense spouted by the wags, do you have a small room? If so cabin gain will fill in the lower octave, so sealed may work better. If you have a large room there's no cabin gain to fill in the lower octave, so ported will probably work better.

cfgenesis 12-14-2013 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


You've fallen for the music versus HT trap, which is more mythical than the unicorn and the honest politician. First, subs don't have detail, that occurs in the frequencies above the subwoofer passband. If a subwoofer is accurate with HT it's accurate with music, if it's accurate with music it's accurate with HT. If it's not accurate it won't sound good with any source. As for the sealed versus ported nonsense spouted by the wags, do you have a small room? If so cabin gain will fill in the lower octave, so sealed may work better. If you have a large room there's no cabin gain to fill in the lower octave, so ported will probably work better.

That's certainly good to hear.  Seemed strange that, as speakers serve the purpose of reproducing sound, it would make a difference whether it is from movies or music.

 

My room is 12' x 24' with 8' ceilings, I'm not sure what is the cut-off between big and small with room size.


Bill Fitzmaurice 12-14-2013 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post

 Seemed strange that, as speakers serve the purpose of reproducing sound, it would make a difference whether it is from movies or music.
Why would it? The speaker doesn't know.
Quote:
My room is 12' x 24' with 8' ceilings, I'm not sure what is the cut-off between big and small with room size.
Smaller than yours. With a 24 foot dimension you'll get no useful cabin gain, so whatever frequency you want to go to that's how low the sub f3 must be. If that's lower than 35Hz you won't get there with sealed on a budget.

arnyk 12-14-2013 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post

Thanks for the input.  I was leaning towards the PB-1000 but don't want to sacrifice the detail on music listening.  However, I read a side-by-side comparison of both which said that the PB does fine with music and is head and shoulders above the SB.
[/quote

]You've fallen for the music versus HT trap, which is more mythical than the unicorn and the honest politician. First, subs don't have detail, that occurs in the frequencies above the subwoofer passband. If a subwoofer is accurate with HT it's accurate with music, if it's accurate with music it's accurate with HT. If it's not accurate it won't sound good with any source. As for the sealed versus ported nonsense spouted by the wags, do you have a small room? If so cabin gain will fill in the lower octave, so sealed may work better. If you have a large room there's no cabin gain to fill in the lower octave, so ported will probably work better.

+1

Like you Bill I have been mystified by the widespread belief that reproducing music and movies are somehow mutually exclusive.

I think this myth was somewhat reinforced by the fact that some well known manufacturers (NHT for one - VT series for movies, music series for music) came out with speakers that they recommended especially for HT.

What was going on behind that is that it seems that movies are more likely to be played loud than music, so speakers for HT have more dynamic range.

Also, it seems that movies can sometimes be more tolerant of systems that are inaccurate, especially tipped towards excessive low bass.

Be those viewpoints as they may be, I criticize them on the grounds that they represent intentional inaccuracy, which is not at all the same as high fidelity.

BBS G35 12-15-2013 10:55 PM

Stretch ur budget to a PB12NSD. ($700)

OneCall offers 12 month 0% financing

GTA Beancounter 12-16-2013 09:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBS G35 View Post

Stretch ur budget to a PB12NSD. ($700)

OneCall offers 12 month 0% financing

Congratulations, you have the 1,000,000th "bump your budget up by... " recommendation post on the AVS forums. Your prize is a Bose Acoustimass 10 speaker system. Enjoy!!! wink.gif

LastButNotLeast 12-16-2013 10:10 AM

I was going to nominate him for Congress, but I like yours.


cfgenesis 12-16-2013 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter View Post


Congratulations, you have the 1,000,000th "bump your budget up by... " recommendation post on the AVS forums. Your prize is a Bose Acoustimass 10 speaker system. Enjoy!!! wink.gif

It's actually a fun game to play, start with a fixed budget and see how high you can be advised to "bump it".  I started with a $300 budget - get recommended to bump up to $500 for X subwoofer, go to thread discussion on that sub where people are telling them to bump up to $700 for Y sub, go to the thread on Y sub where they are all saying bump up to $1000 for Z sub.  Could probably get yourself up to $3k that way!


BeeMan458 12-16-2013 10:42 AM

Working with your above, I started with a $600.00 to $900.00 budget, ended with a $2,600.00 purchase and kept an open eye, should I need it, on a matching third subwoofer.

I did start out with the best intentions of keeping it to $600.00. I raised the budget to +$6k and finally landed at a realistic, for our means, of $2.6k. Yes, it's quite the buyer's journey.

-

rnatalli 12-16-2013 10:51 AM

The SVS PB-1000 gets my vote and should do just fine in that room.

eljaycanuck 12-16-2013 10:58 AM

+1 to the SVS PB-1000. It offers good output and extension; it's well-rated and well-priced; the price includes the cost of shipping and SVS offers free return shipping within 45 days.

Buy it, try it and:
- if you like it, you're set;
- if you don't, return it and the in-home demo will have cost you $0.

GTA Beancounter 12-16-2013 10:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfgenesis View Post

It's actually a fun game to play, start with a fixed budget and see how high you can be advised to "bump it".  I started with a $300 budget - get recommended to bump up to $500 for X subwoofer, go to thread discussion on that sub where people are telling them to bump up to $700 for Y sub, go to the thread on Y sub where they are all saying bump up to $1000 for Z sub.  Could probably get yourself up to $3k that way!

You really can spend as much as you want in audio, there will be someone out there who will be happy to take your money even if you are well past the point of diminishing returns.

But to be fair to BBS G35 I have seen threads where the OP wants "bass he can feel" in a 2000 cubic foot family room that is open to the kitchen and stairwell (rest of the house really) for $250. In some cases the recommendation to up one's budget (or lower one's expectations) is very reasonable and it may be BBS G35's opinion that the PB-1000 will have insignificant output in your room. My opinion is that I think you'd be very happy with a PB-1000 as I'm pleased with mine in a larger room. FWIW, if I was playing the "spend a bit more and buy a... " game I'd suggest a Rythmik LV12R smile.gif


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