I bought a new subwoofer. Giving it back and looking for a better - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGBEAR2004 View Post

I rarely post often on these forums as I have no desire to argue with anyone, plus I am usually busy, but this is way too much bashing for a great sounding sub. I personally had to buy this sub because I absolutely loved the sound it produced, it blends in perfectly with all my speakers in the room, it also produces a 3D effect where you can track bass details around the room from a single sub placed in the corner, it's detailed and doesn't muddle the sound, it's boom free and it just sounds realistic/natural to me. The sub was right for me, and that's what matters! I personally find this sub powerful, goes deep, it literally shakes my couch, chest, doors, and I enjoy it. I was planning on getting another 1 this week, but I have to put it on hold due to a dental emergency.

I don't see it as a bashing... You are on a forum where subjective reviews aren't seen as "final". Even the greatest subs get critiqued:D

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #92 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Most of that is pure piffle. For instance:
In essence, the drivers vent to the side or rear of the cabinet ("Back-Sidefire"), in order that their output couples as closely with the room boundaries as possible. This not only maximises output through boundary gain but also to minimises destructive interference due to the delayed first reflection from that boundary.
None of that is true with respect to the long wavelengths emanated from subwoofers. Neither is most of what's contained in that 'review', which seems written by someone shy in the engineering knowledge department. That's confirmed IMO by his using the newbie term 'co-location'. FWIW, two drivers separated by less than 3.5 feet, and for that matter any number of speakers in a cluster with no more than 3.5 feet separation between any of them, mutually couple to act as a single source below 80Hz.
Not that this matters as far as subjectivity is concerned; I'm sure they sound very good. But 'Balanced 3D High Velocity Push-Pull-Pulsar Deep Bass Pressure Wavefront Technology' is nothing more than pseudo-scientific gobbledygook.

The explanation of each TM was explained with in good reason and tested by Ken (to which I might add may know a thing or two about building subs wink.gif to yield the result , is there another sub ot there that uses and of the technology as the DXD ? short answer no! The design of his new subs accomplish nothing that goes against physics or science but the understanding of them was applied to achieve the description he used which is indeed a mouthful to say but nonetheless its a real result.

Don't forget this is Ken Kresiel here we're talking about remember who he he's learned from and his peers whom you guys quote a lot ! The man knew the market he was coming back to and could've easily played along with the rest of the crowd ( a monster sub dual18's pushpull, bigger amp with his tech behind it) but in the end I'm glad he designed a KK sub. smile.gif
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post #93 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

That's quite the feat! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif I have 2 subs that are actually separated by about 8-9 feet and even they don't do that. I must be doing something wrong. wink.gif

Naa! you just need a DXD biggrin.gif
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post #94 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I don't see it as a bashing... You are on a forum where subjective reviews aren't seen as "final". Even the greatest subs get critiqued:D

I noticed you heard the DXD's was it the 808 or the 12012's ?
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post #95 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I noticed you heard the DXD's was it the 808 or the 12012's ?

12012. For music it was phenomenal. I used U2's Joshua Tree for demoing them. For films, I used Prometheus, Tears of the Sun (not really a bass flick), MI Ghost Protocol, and Bolt. It sounded good but I felt it lacked overall output. BUT that could've been due to the room (untreated)... The system itself was comprised of 2 12012s and B&W 802Ds and smaller B&Ws for surrounds.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #96 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

12012. For music it was phenomenal. I used U2's Joshua Tree for demoing them. For films, I used Prometheus, Tears of the Sun (not really a bass flick), MI Ghost Protocol, and Bolt. It sounded good but I felt it lacked overall output. BUT that could've been due to the room (untreated)... The system itself was comprised of 2 12012s and B&W 802Ds and smaller B&Ws for surrounds.

Where they in a corner and stacked as Ken suggested which is 2-4 inches from the side and back wall ? and did you get to push them as I've found they like to be driven if its called for with no sense of compression but just keep pumping out bass.
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post #97 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Naa! you just need a DXD biggrin.gif

Yeah, you're right. And the packet of Magic Sauce that allows omnidirectional sub 80 Hz bass to be "thrown around the room." Gotta make sure I have that, too. cool.gif
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post #98 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post



Where they in a corner and stacked as Ken suggested which is 2-4 inches from the side and back wall ? and did you get to push them as I've found they like to be driven if its called for with no sense of compression but just keep pumping out bass.

Yeap set up exactly that way. I'll take pics next time I'm up in San Jose. We were at reference with the subs +2db hot from audyssey XT32.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #99 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Yeah, you're right. And the packet of Magic Sauce that allows omnidirectional sub 80 Hz bass to be "thrown around the room." Gotta make sure I have that, too. cool.gif

You're familiar with the way room correction software works in the time domain with arrival of sound? its pure science and no secret sauce just no smearing of that 80hz bass which is what in proper setups is supposed to do and any competent well designed sub should be able to pull it off. Kens mantra places time domain as high importance ! for some its overall spl but may have to compromise SQ Ken has done both as if need arises for more spl just stack another sub till a full Quattro is realised . Its the way its designed to work its, modular sub or sub system.
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post #100 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

You're familiar with the way room correction software works in the time domain with arrival of sound? its pure science and no secret sauce just no smearing of that 80hz bass which is what in proper setups is supposed to do and any competent well designed sub should be able to pull it off. Kens mantra places time domain as high importance ! for some its overall spl but may have to compromise SQ Ken has done both as if need arises for more spl just stack another sub till a full Quattro is realised . Its the way its designed to work its, modular sub or sub system.

Sub bass is omnidirectional. If you can locate where in the room bass is coming from, your system is crossed too high. What does give bass directional cues are what the other speakers do. If there is an explosion on the left, it's the accompanying upper bass frequencies from you left speakers that draw your ears there. Sorry, but the Kreisels are not doing anything magic that any other properly designed, properly set up sub can do. Disconnect the other speakers in the system and see if the bass is still being "thrown around."

Edit: fixed typo
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post #101 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 01:32 PM
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Statement 1: I cannot determine where my low hz content originates from. It is enveloping.

Question 1: How does the DXD know where the bass should come from? I'm pretty sure there is no location data in the .1 channel. At least not on my AVR or in my source material.
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post #102 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Sub bass is omnidirectional. If you can locate where in the room bass is coming from, your system is crossed too high. What does give bass directional cues are what the other speakers do. If there is an explosion on the left, it's the accompanying upper bass frequencies from you left speakers that draw your ears there. Sorry, but the Kreisels are not doing anything magic that any other properly designed, properly set up sub can do. Disconnect the other speakers in the system and see if the bass is still being "thrown around."

Edit: fixed typo

That's kinda what I said! and your only defense on the subject is magic! I'll say it again Time Domain And please save the rudimentary education on directional cues for those that ask what they are! as you have Time domain to deal with tongue.gif
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post #103 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Statement 1: I cannot determine where my low hz content originates from. It is enveloping.

Question 1: How does the DXD know where the bass should come from? I'm pretty sure there is no location data in the .1 channel. At least not on my AVR or in my source material.

The receiver or pre/pro that processes the signal steers the sound to the proper channel.

As for the .1 its a dedicated channel for the subs personal info which contains LFE. depending on your crossovers for the remaining speakers the bass gets redirected to the sub or subs now immersive is one thing and I'm not just talking directional cues but tactile sensation from the speaker the sub is augmenting at the time of an effect or musical cue even the phantom image between in the sometimes complex pans between the speakers, this is not easily done and requires a sub of exceptional abilities which I've found the DXD delivers in spades. its nothing special just the nature of the beast wink.gif
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post #104 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 02:32 PM
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That's kinda what I said! and your only defense on the subject is magic! I'll say it again Time Domain And please save the rudimentary education on directional cues for those that ask what they are! as you have Time domain to deal with tongue.gif

No, you are assigning this special/unique ability to your sub. Again, unhook your other speakers and play just the sub and see how that does. There is nothing super special about what your sub does. You claiming there is is where the "magic" comes in. You've been arguing the same thing for months. At the end of the day, there are still 2 12" drivers in a sealed enclosure. Yes, they might have some tweaks that make them sound better, but nothing about the design of the subwoofer that is going to make the mono signal for omnidirectional sound come from different directions in the room. Perhaps if KK had used more simple (rudimentary, if you will) language you wouldn't be buying into all the PR crap on the product page.
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post #105 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

The receiver or pre/pro that processes the signal steers the sound to the proper channel.

As for the .1 its a dedicated channel for the subs personal info which contains LFE. depending on your crossovers for the remaining speakers the bass gets redirected to the sub or subs now immersive is one thing and I'm not just talking directional cues but tactile sensation from the speaker the sub is augmenting at the time of an effect or musical cue even the phantom image between in the sometimes complex pans between the speakers, this is not easily done and requires a sub of exceptional abilities which I've found the DXD delivers in spades. its nothing special just the nature of the beast wink.gif

It's MAGIC!!!

Lmao.
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post #106 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

The receiver or pre/pro that processes the signal steers the sound to the proper channel.

As for the .1 its a dedicated channel for the subs personal info which contains LFE. depending on your crossovers for the remaining speakers the bass gets redirected to the sub or subs now immersive is one thing and I'm not just talking directional cues but tactile sensation from the speaker the sub is augmenting at the time of an effect or musical cue even the phantom image between in the sometimes complex pans between the speakers, this is not easily done and requires a sub of exceptional abilities which I've found the DXD delivers in spades. its nothing special just the nature of the beast wink.gif

So if no directional cues come from the .1, then is the DXD plugged into something else also? Is it hooked up to something like an optical input with the entire 7.1 track?
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post #107 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 02:44 PM
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AudioFan, I think everyone would've been fine if you just said the DXD SQ was great. But you must understand you are now trying to explain a phenomenon that just doesn't seem to make sense. You should expect sarcasm and critique to follow.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #108 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

No, you are assigning this special/unique ability to your sub. Again, unhook your other speakers and play just the sub and see how that does. There is nothing super special about what your sub does. You claiming there is is where the "magic" comes in. You've been arguing the same thing for months. At the end of the day, there are still 2 12" drivers in a sealed enclosure. Yes, they might have some tweaks that make them sound better, but nothing about the design of the subwoofer that is going to make the mono signal for omnidirectional sound come from different directions in the room. Perhaps if KK had used more simple (rudimentary, if you will) language you wouldn't be buying into all the PR crap on the product page.

Wow man! Do you really think so little of Ken's work ( and you have never heard it, which is another story unto itself) so be it as I'd love for you to explain to Ken why you don't think his design does what he says it does, the proof is in the pudding and I really love the use of the word by you magic as an easy out for things you don't understand tongue.gif and if what I described is special/unique then kudos to Ken and he gets a job well done from me cool.gif
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post #109 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 03:00 PM
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Yep, that's what it is. I just don't understand. And neither does the poster with a background in designing subs who calls that stuff "gobbledygook." Good to know.
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post #110 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

So if no directional cues come from the .1, then is the DXD plugged into something else also? Is it hooked up to something like an optical input with the entire 7.1 track?

No Sir its not an active crossover I'm trying to explain. Its plugged right into the sub/LFE out on the pre/pro. And yes the .1 channel has directional cues when called upon wherever its needed , all I'm trying to explain is how well its done.
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post #111 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

No Sir its not an active crossover I'm trying to explain. Its plugged right into the sub/LFE out on the pre/pro. And yes the .1 channel has directional cues when called upon wherever its needed , all I'm trying to explain is how well its done.

I'm not sure I'm getting you, how does the LFE channel have directional ques when sub 120hz content (or so to say sub 80hz) is omnidirectional?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #112 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

AudioFan, I think everyone would've been fine if you just said the DXD SQ was great. But you must understand you are now trying to explain a phenomenon that just doesn't seem to make sense. You should expect sarcasm and critique to follow.

Everyone! only the same few wink.gif to which I've decided in regards to the DXD's when brought up ( as you don't find me going around in other threads trying spread the word or it does this or that) that those who feel the compulsion to disregard or speak on something from the view of only a bit of know how ( some more than others) and their personal interpretation of the subject at hand I will chime and do so with vigor. Keep in mind AVS see millions of hits and if only you guys have your say and thats all to be said, then you're doing more of a disservice to the A/V community at large. better to say we need more data before drawing any conclusions. smile.gif
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post #113 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 03:28 PM
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^^^ Cool. Waiting to see the data that shows how LFE can be thrown around the room in the manner you describe. If you can hear it, it can be measured, right? Right?
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post #114 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Don't forget this is Ken Kresiel here we're talking about remember who he he's learned from and his peers whom you guys quote a lot
So? He's been doing this a few years more than I have, but only a few. I guarantee that he puts his pants on one leg at a time, and that if he tries walking on water he'll get wet. eek.gif
I have all the respect in the world for Ken from a professional standpoint as a designer, but there are at least a dozen of us on this board with equal design chops. Besides, I don't think I have any disagreement with Ken here, but very much so with whoever wrote his advertising copy. It's a classic case of a marketing department writing checks that the engineering department can't cover.

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post #115 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 03:44 PM
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I'm not sure I'm getting you, how does the LFE channel have directional ques when sub 120hz content (or so to say sub 80hz) is omnidirectional?

Let's say a loud explosion that occurs in the rear channels, the LFE is contained in the .1 channel for the effect and the sound should because of directional cues of the sound above LFE channel will originate from the R/L or both channels in a 5.1 setup( this along with the redirected bass to sub from the speakers say using a 80hz crossover) . I'm only trying to point out the DXD's ability to convince the listener that sound only originated from the rear channels with a weight and tactile sensation as though the sub itself was physically located or built into the rear speaker itself and this applies to all the channels used from and this is from a single sub. I've also said any well placed sub that's also well made sub should be able to pull this off . I'm only posting on my experience with the sub as I've found it to excel in this regard.
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post #116 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

So? He's been doing this a few years more than I have, but only a few. I guarantee that he puts his pants on one leg at a time, and that if he tries walking on water he'll get wet. eek.gif
I have all the respect in the world for Ken from a professional standpoint as a designer, but there are at least a dozen of us on this board with equal design chops. Besides, I don't think I have any disagreement with Ken here, but very much so with whoever wrote his advertising copy. It's a classic case of a marketing department writing checks that the engineering department can't cover.

No doubt Bill as I've have nothing but the utmost respect for your wisdom on these things and I don't refute any man's work as it should stand for itself. Ken is no higher in my book than any other individual. I'll admit the advertising is a blessing and a curse and it's a little PT Barnum but none the less advertising is all about getting attention to a product and its done that for sure perhaps to the point of overshadowing the work at times.

Its a little daunting at times when the big dogs here chime in but I when I post my views on these things, its to not only garner insight and learn something but I have a keen interest on why it works the way it does. I can't refute or dismiss what I experience and I look to you guys to not just dismiss but perhaps provoke a deeper look into the matter. smile.gif
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post #117 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 04:25 PM
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So i learned, my biggest consern is that if i buy 2 of these subs, is then i suddenly find out that you going to need 4, and that is out of the question. 2 or none.
It would be cheaper to build a wall and cut off some square footage than buy another sub.

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post #118 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Let's say a loud explosion that occurs in the rear channels, the LFE is contained in the .1 channel for the effect and the sound should because of directional cues of the sound above LFE channel will originate from the R/L or both channels in a 5.1 setup( this along with the redirected bass to sub from the speakers say using a 80hz crossover) . I'm only trying to point out the DXD's ability to convince the listener that sound only originated from the rear channels with a weight and tactile sensation as though the sub itself was physically located or built into the rear speaker itself and this applies to all the channels used from and this is from a single sub. I've also said any well placed sub that's also well made sub should be able to pull this off . I'm only posting on my experience with the sub as I've found it to excel in this regard.

Ok I think I get it. I would attribute that to good clean bass. No harmonics above 80 hz which would allow you to localize. So only directional cues are from the speakers.

I can dig it. Fyi, my FV15HP is the same way. Not magic, just good clean output with no distortion.
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post #119 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Its a little daunting at times when the big dogs here chime in but I when I post my views on these things, its to not only garner insight and learn something but I have a keen interest on why it works the way it does. I can't refute or dismiss what I experience and I look to you guys to not just dismiss but perhaps provoke a deeper look into the matter. smile.gif

That's the problem...we have, but you do not choose to accept what we have to say.

 

Many people have told you that there is no 'magic' to your sub and it's limited by its design compared to other subs in its price range. You claim that you can't refute or dismiss your experiences, but yet your experiences are derived by using the most flawed tools in your HT (your ears and your mind). You have been heavily influenced by the marketing of the product, and by the natural human tendency to justify purchases.  What AVS members hate the most is the spreading of misinformation; information not supported by any objective data. You have been constantly brought objective data of the contrary, but have chosen to not accept it, and that somehow your sub is different (or magical).

 

Until you can bring some objective data to the table, you'll continue to get a similar response. 

 

I recently challenged a long standing belief around "SPL is SPL" from a tactile feeling standpoint...but when I really challenged it, I supported it with objective measurements in my room, not colorful commentary on why I believe that is the case. I held the burden of proof, and until I had some objective data to support it, I didn't take a strong position. You should do the same.

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post #120 of 151 Old 01-14-2014, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Ok I think I get it. I would attribute that to good clean bass. No harmonics above 80 hz which would allow you to localize. So only directional cues are from the speakers.
I can dig it. Fyi, my FV15HP is the same way. Not magic, just good clean output with no distortion.
Correct. Directional cues come from the midbass and midrange. If the only thing you're hearing from the subs is what you should be hearing from the subs then you'll perceive the source of bass sounds as coming from whichever of the mains or surrounds that the directional midbass and midrange cues are coming from. If, however, the subs are producing midbass and midrange you'll hear them as the source. That will happen if the sub crossover frequency is too high and/or if the sub has high THD. High THD can be an inherent property of a sub, and it can be the result of pushing it beyond its limit for low THD operation.
Quote:
I'm only trying to point out the DXD's ability to convince the listener that sound only originated from the rear channels with a weight and tactile sensation as though the sub itself was physically located or built into the rear speaker itself
That's good, but it's not anything unique to the DXD. My sub is a foot behind me. I can never directionally locate it, even with 110-115dB at the LP levels. Needless to say it has very low THD, less than 3% at full power.
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