I bought a new subwoofer. Giving it back and looking for a better - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 152 Old 12-17-2013, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey about 6 weeks ago i bought a ken kreisel DXD12012, and by the reviews this should be more then enough for anyone. Boy was i wrong, this did not perform in my home(having living room/kitchen of 60m2 and open stairway up to an equal area in second floor). I even ended up having specialists home and no luck, i had to turn output bass to maximum in the reciever and this is just wrong. And now im in search for a one that works... Jl audio Fathom 113 is one that im considering trying out, but i need convinsing that this is the one... I want more than just the deepest bass. Oh almost forgot, i tested the kk dxd 12012 at a friends 25m2 room and it sounded better then i have ever heard period!
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post #2 of 152 Old 12-17-2013, 10:56 AM
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... having living room/kitchen of 60m2 and open stairway up to an equal area in second floor ...
60m2 = ~646 sq.ft. x ~8' ceilings = ~5,168 cu.ft. x 2 = ~10,336 cu.ft.

Additional info that would be helpful: Your budget (range or max) and your location.
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post #3 of 152 Old 12-17-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by larseinar View Post

i tested the kk dxd 12012 at a friends 25m2 room and it sounded better then i have ever heard period!
There's a big difference in the size of his space and the size of yours. That should be telling you something. I doubt any single sub of moderate size will do your room justice. As for reviews, unless back up by cold hard data they're only opinions, each of which, along with $5, will get you a cup of coffee.
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post #4 of 152 Old 12-17-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by larseinar View Post

Hey about 6 weeks ago i bought a ken kreisel DXD12012, and by the reviews this should be more then enough for anyone. Boy was i wrong, this did not perform in my home(having living room/kitchen of 60m2 and open stairway up to an equal area in second floor). I even ended up having specialists home and no luck, i had to turn output bass to maximum in the reciever and this is just wrong. And now im in search for a one that works... Jl audio Fathom 113 is one that im considering trying out, but i need convinsing that this is the one... I want more than just the deepest bass. Oh almost forgot, i tested the kk dxd 12012 at a friends 25m2 room and it sounded better then i have ever heard period!

Did you corner load the sub and tried different locations? Also if you can post a pic of the room.
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post #5 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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post #6 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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And yes i tried all placements right/left corner(as much as i could). But minor changes in sound. seems wron to me that i need 10.000 Euro sub to get the sound....

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post #7 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by larseinar View Post

seems wron to me that i need 10.000 Euro sub to get the sound....
You don't. You do need to pay attention when advise is given. Your room is simply much too large for one small sub to fill.

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post #8 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes i saw that, but the specialist i had at home told me that the p10 from dahli would be enough with its 3x 10". Therefore i question the need of 2 subs...
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post #9 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 11:59 AM
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... the specialist i had at home told me that the p10 from dahli would be enough with its 3x 10".
The Dali SUB P-10 DSS?
- 10" driver
- two 10" passive radiators
- 300W RMS amp
- 24-250 +/-3dB

How did he define "enough"? IMO, that sub isn't nearly enough for a ~5,168 cu.ft. space open to another space of equal size.
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post #10 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by larseinar View Post

Yes i saw that, but the specialist i had at home told me that the p10 from dahli would be enough with its 3x 10". Therefore i question the need of 2 subs...
Said 'specialist' needs to find a different occupation. rolleyes.gif
A room of your size would need four of those little subs to reach reference levels comfortably.

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post #11 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larseinar View Post

And yes i tried all placements right/left corner(as much as i could). But minor changes in sound. seems wron to me that i need 10.000 Euro sub to get the sound....

What about behind you are there any corners or solid walls? Did you get around to doing a sub crawl and as for the Dali, its not going to be enough .Also did you use the green dots on the back of the sub?

and as one last effort here's the link to a new dedicated KK forum and perhaps other owners can help with proper setup.

http://www.speakershack.co.uk/
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post #12 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

The Dali SUB P-10 DSS?
- 10" driver
- two 10" passive radiators
- 300W RMS amp
- 24-250 +/-3dB

How did he define "enough"? IMO, that sub isn't nearly enough for a ~5,168 cu.ft. space open to another space of equal size.

Agreed. That sub is no where near enough to pressurize that space. You need to go multiple subs. What's your max budget?
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post #13 of 152 Old 12-18-2013, 12:39 PM
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I agree with the posts stating that you will need more than one sub to adequately pressurize your space and I agree that a single Dali will not do it.

 

I would normally recommend SVS, PSA, Rythmik and others as well but since you are not in the states I don't think anything but SVS will work because of shipping etc. I do believe SVS has distributors in Europe so I would take a close look at what they have and if you could get them.

 

If you can I would look at a pair of SVS PB12+ just to start. The sad truth is you have a lot of open space and it all needs to be pressurized in order to have great bass. I don't know your budget but I think you have to seriously resign yourself to the fact that you will need more than one subwoofer.

 

Perhaps you could add another Kreisel to the one you have.

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post #14 of 152 Old 12-23-2013, 05:35 PM
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Ken does highly recommend Duo or Quattro setups, as it is a whole new animal and it will give you the full " BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT Technology™". You can also contact ken at kkreisel@kreiselsound.com for assistance with what you have right now, but I would consider a duo setup. My buddy has a larger room than yours with a duo setup, and it easily pressurized the room and his neighbours room. I also have 1 dxd 12012, and I should have my second one by mind to late Jan.

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post #15 of 152 Old 12-23-2013, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGBEAR2004 View Post

it will give you the full " BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT Technology™".

That's a joke, right? Ive never seen a weaponized subwoofer. True military grade components. smile.gif "The only sub that sounds like a real bomb...because it is one!" eek.gif You should use smileys when making funnies biggrin.gif

Edit: I see it was not a joke. Sorry, mine was. No insult intended. smile.gif
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post #16 of 152 Old 12-23-2013, 06:06 PM
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That's a joke, right? Ive never seen a weaponized subwoofer. True military grade components. smile.gif "The only sub that sounds like a real bomb...because it is one! eek.gif You should use smileys when making funnies biggrin.gif

Its quoted from Ken directly. If you feel it's a joke, then I may suggest you email Ken and ask him that.
I see your point of view, but when you hear a duo, you will agree on why he named it so.

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post #17 of 152 Old 12-23-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Edit: I see it was not a joke. Sorry, mine was. No insult intended. smile.gif

It's cool. Marketing jargon is ok. That one is just particularly....long. And just having fun with it.

The acronym is cool: B3HVPPPDBPW Technology biggrin.gif

Seriously though, my kidding around is not to insult the performance of the subwoofer or its designer.
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post #18 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by BIGBEAR2004 View Post

Ken does highly recommend Duo or Quattro setups, as it is a whole new animal and it will give you the full " BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT Technology™". You can also contact ken at kkreisel@kreiselsound.com for assistance with what you have right now, but I would consider a duo setup. My buddy has a larger room than yours with a duo setup, and it easily pressurized the room and his neighbours room. I also have 1 dxd 12012, and I should have my second one by mind to late Jan.

Your so lucky, but I hope to be joining you soon with a second as I've heard the duo is indeed something to be heard wink.gif

Here's a link to a new dedicated forum for KK speakers started by an owner.

http://www.speakershack.co.uk/
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post #19 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by larseinar View Post

Yes i saw that, but the specialist i had at home told me that the p10 from dahli would be enough with its 3x 10". Therefore i question the need of 2 subs...

I assume you're in Europe. I get the feeling that European dealers have different expectations of sub bass than American dealers, and certainly very different from the expectations in this forum. Hence, that specialist's suggestion of the Dali P10 might not have been unusual for him, but is quite laughable by this forum's standards.
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post #20 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

[/B]
Your so lucky, but I hope to be joining you soon with a second as I've heard the duo is indeed something to be heard wink.gif

Here's a link to a new dedicated forum for KK speakers started by an owner.

http://www.speakershack.co.uk/


Yea, I can't wait myself. However, I am not looking forward to breaking in the second sub, as it took me 6 months to fully break in the 1st sub. These subs take looonnngg to break in and open up.

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post #21 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BIGBEAR2004 View Post

However, I am not looking forward to breaking in the second sub, as it took me 6 months to fully break in the 1st sub. These subs take looonnngg to break in and open up.
If it took 6 months you must have been running it no more than 3 minutes a day. Subwoofer driver suspensions take at most 40 hours of normal playing to fully loosen.

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post #22 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 10:27 AM
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Nope, I run it pretty heavy everyday. I am certain other DXD-12012 owners will say the same.
I thought I broke it in fully after the first couple of weeks of heavy use. At random days, I would leave the sub playing in the basement overnight with pink noise at 95db, yet the sub kept getting louder, and more punchier over the months.

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post #23 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 11:03 AM
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"I went to a dealer and bought the most expensive sub they have, took it home, it sucked, went back to dealer, dealer laugh and said I need another one." Classic.
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I hear that a lot from polygamist marriage councelors.
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post #25 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGBEAR2004 View Post

Nope, I run it pretty heavy everyday. I am certain other DXD-12012 owners will say the same.
I thought I broke it in fully after the first couple of weeks of heavy use. At random days, I would leave the sub playing in the basement overnight with pink noise at 95db, yet the sub kept getting louder, and more punchier over the months.

naw, I'm pretty sure that was your ear wax loosening up allowing more audible tones to pass through.

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post #26 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 12:20 PM
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naw, I'm pretty sure that was your ear wax loosening up allowing more audible tones to pass through.

You're suggesting that myself, audiofan1, and other DXD 12012 users, all had wax build up which loosened up? Right! Ok, I am done here for now.
Audiofan1, feel free to give your earwax loosening up experience with the DXD-12012.

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post #27 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If it took 6 months you must have been running it no more than 3 minutes a day. Subwoofer driver suspensions take at most 40 hours of normal playing to fully loosen.
That's the rule for drivers I always followed but with the 12012 even after following Ken's quick burn in ( I ran a 10hz -100hz sine wave sweep for a week plus pushed it hard for movies) it took a full 3 months of heavy use to get it to fully loosen up , it just kept hitting harder and digging deeper .

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Originally Posted by BIGBEAR2004 View Post

Nope, I run it pretty heavy everyday. I am certain other DXD-12012 owners will say the same.
I thought I broke it in fully after the first couple of weeks of heavy use. At random days, I would leave the sub playing in the basement overnight with pink noise at 95db, yet the sub kept getting louder, and more punchier over the months.

Yup! a solid 3 db louder biggrin.gif
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post #28 of 152 Old 12-24-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGBEAR2004 View Post

You're suggesting that myself, audiofan1, and other DXD 12012 users, all had wax build up which loosened up? Right! Ok, I am done here for now.
Audiofan1, feel free to give your earwax loosening up experience with the DXD-12012.

Will do smile.gif I just hope its not habit forming biggrin.gif
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post #29 of 152 Old 01-06-2014, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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max 4000 NOK, or 3200 EURO. But i cannot buy all at once, need to have a buffer in my account :)

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post #30 of 152 Old 01-07-2014, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
 

I agree with the posts stating that you will need more than one sub to adequately pressurize your space and I agree that a single Dali will not do it.

 

I would normally recommend SVS, PSA, Rythmik and others as well but since you are not in the states I don't think anything but SVS will work because of shipping etc. I do believe SVS has distributors in Europe so I would take a close look at what they have and if you could get them.

 

If you can I would look at a pair of SVS PB12+ just to start. The sad truth is you have a lot of open space and it all needs to be pressurized in order to have great bass. I don't know your budget but I think you have to seriously resign yourself to the fact that you will need more than one subwoofer.

 

Perhaps you could add another Kreisel to the one you have.

i have tried KK compared to a SVS, and i think KK is the much superior for what i am looking for out of the two. I want punchy effects. and i tested both in a 45m2 appartment and livingroom of 20-25m2 and KK absolutely rocked! The only issue i have been thinking of in the christmas time is about 2x DXD12012, but i wont gamble with all that money. btw my sound supplyer has both SVS and KK.

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