one Rythmik F15HP, or two F12s? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 61 Old 12-23-2013, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I listen to around 80% HT, 20% music. Still working on the room, and thus the speakers, but assume GoldenEar Triton 7s for the fronts -- the stereo pair for music. Surrounds and center will likely be GE as well. Room is right at 14 x 20 x 8 feet. AVR is Denon x4000. I'll do what room treatments I can, but I can't afford $5k worth of ASC TubeTraps which is about what it would take to fill all four corners. I'll most likely go the DIY route for bass traps and first reflection control.

Given that, I'm thinking that the F15HP will be overkilll for the room, but I'd probably never want for subwoofer if I had it. OTOH, I'll almost certainly get smoother bottom end response from the room if I use two F12s instead. And I'll trade ultimate bottom end and slap factor for musicality every time, so I'm thinking I want a sealed box and not ported.

Am I headed in the right direction, or am I hopelessly confused? Should I be looking at other options? SVS? Hsu? Even a pair of GoldenEar Forcefield 3s? Or 4s? I'd save some cash with just the single F15HP. Will I get $525 (that's 42% more money) better performance out of two F12s?
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post #2 of 61 Old 12-23-2013, 09:24 AM
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One F15HP will MURDER two Bic PL200s. The F15 also extends down WAY further.
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post #3 of 61 Old 12-23-2013, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post

Given that, I'm thinking that the F15HP will be overkilll for the room,.....

LOL!

In the case of subwoofers, there is no such thing as "overkill."

LOL!
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post #4 of 61 Old 12-23-2013, 09:31 AM
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I would get the FV15HP or the F15HP if you are set on sealed. You can always add a second one in the future.
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post #5 of 61 Old 12-23-2013, 09:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post

Am I headed in the right direction, or am I hopelessly confused?

In the end, it's all about the Benjamins. If one didn't have to worry about Benjamins, we'd all start out with four JTR S2s and go from there. From my vantage point, which is really low on the totem pole, two FV15s is the best starting point with an eye, if necessary, on a third.

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I'd save some cash with just the single F15HP.

There is no hope. There is no such thing as saving some cash. That is a total myth. Putting subwoofers together with the concept of saving cash, comes under the heading of wishful thinking. Either you're in for a pound or you're in for disappointment. There is no middle ground.

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post #6 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

There is no such thing as saving some cash.

Maybe not, but that's not really what I'm asking. I'm asking about the pros and cons of going with a single F15HP vs. a pair of F12s.

I'm not opposed to spending more money, but that extra money has to buy me something useful. Does it in this case?
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post #7 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 01:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post

Does it in this case?

Yes it does.

The difference between a single subwoofer sound reproduction system and a dual subwoofer sound reproduction system, in my opinion, is dramatic. My below is a summation of "ALL" my personal subwoofer experience.

"Subwoofers are the money pit of happiness. The more one throws down the rat hole labeled subwoofers, the happier the individual becomes."

There's good reason why I added this comment to all my posts. The main reason being, is because it's about as true and accurate as the week or month is long. Personally, I would go with a pair of F15HPs. Just saying, one gets a 10% discount if buying two.

In all seriousness, allow me to quote my other comment: "I'm a subwoofer enabler." and I do so for good reason as with my limited knowledge and experience, I try to help those who don't know, to get the best bang for their buck.

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post #8 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 02:27 PM
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Honestly I think I would go with a ported sub because your room dimensions don't really support cabin gain that would help you with a sealed sub. It's also pretty much a myth that sealed subs are better for music and ported subs are better for movies (I've included a link about popular subwoofer myths). 
 

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416034852/http://www.audiopulse.com/know-how/subwoofer-driver-guide/myths-about-subwoofers/

 

That said, I think I would go with the dual sub option of the F12's, especially if you have a lot of listening positions and you want to smooth out the bass throughout your room. Going with dual subs may also save you money as you may find you won't need as many room treatments to correct the bass.

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post #9 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 02:42 PM
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I would go with dual F12's to help even out the room response.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #10 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 10:03 PM
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I'm not playing by the rules, but I'd say 2x F15HPs along with the Triton 7s. I wouldn't consider that overkill. No need to consider Triton 2s or 3s, because the F15HPs are far superior for bass. I've also heard good things about SVS and Hsu, but I've never heard anything about GoldenEar subs outside of people who buy all GoldenEar. I wouldn't trust them. I've heard good things about GoldenEar speakers, though, and I do really like the newer folded ribbon tweeters.

There is definitely a huge difference between 12" and 15" subs and a huge benefit to getting two in a closed room. If you want something smaller, I'd say go with E15s (which also saves on shipping). If you aren't aware, you can buy Rythmik subs in twos and get 10% off both subs, which is nice. You mentioned DIY. The kits could save a lot on the subs, especially including shipping. You could even get pre-cut enclosures http://www.parts-express.com/cat/subwoofer-speaker-cabinets/289, but the Rythmik ones will probably look nicer (and save you some trouble).

That link about how sealed not being better than ported - that's an opinion. Since you listen to a significant amount of music, rather than just home theater, you may be happier with sealed. All else being equal, ported=more power, sealed=more detail, realism.
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post #11 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 12:43 PM
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The difference in output is not huge and there are many factors at play other than cone diameter (though yes, all else equal, a 15" should provide higher output). From the Rythmik website:

At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db


A difference of 3 - 4 dB is not very significant, especially for very low bass, and that is max output (probably overkill for the OP, and many others). In the midrange it takes about 10 dB to sound twice as loud, but at very low (and very high) frequencies our hearing rolls off and we are less sensitive so it takes even more.

On the sealed vs. ported debate, again there are so many variables that generic conclusions are likely to be wrong either way. For low levels the are likely to be equal in distortion, with the sealed doing better through most of the power band, then at high power ported might actually exhibit lower distortion. It's complicated.

If I had room for two F15's, I would have gotten them, but more out of "want" than "need". In my room, about 13.3' x 17.7' 8.5', two F12's serve me just fine. And, they fit in visually much better than the larger 15" boxes.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #12 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 01:34 PM
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It really depends on what your room does to the sub. You can probably get decent in room response at one position with one sub but over a larger area, that might be tougher. I was lucky enough that in my room I was able to place on sub and get a smooth response with one sub over my couch so in my case, two subs would be "overkill." I once had 4 subs in my room and this one sub does a very good job but obviously doesn't have the same output. The only really way to know in your situation is to place on sub check the measurements and then place another to see if you can smooth it out without EQ. As far acoustic treatments go, GIK and ATS acoustics has bass traps and soffits to fulfill your needs for much cheaper. The tube traps you mentioned are not just bass traps but they're meant to be broadband absorption, diffusion, what not with dealer costs so their pricing is much different than ID prices for disputable benefits. I believe my advice would be buy the one sub and bass traps and see what happens. Room treatments are not something to be ignored. Even though you have a flat FR response, you might have problems in the time domain (certain frequencies would linger longer than others). And If you're not satisfied save the money and go for duals. Output wise, you would just play it by the numbers.
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post #13 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 02:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The difference in output is not huge and there are many factors at play other than cone diameter (though yes, all else equal, a 15" should provide higher output). From the Rythmik website:

At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db


A difference of 3 - 4 dB is not very significant, especially for very low bass, and that is max output (probably overkill for the OP, and many others). In the midrange it takes about 10 dB to sound twice as loud, but at very low (and very high) frequencies our hearing rolls off and we are less sensitive so it takes even more.

But if buying two or three FV15HPs, the difference between three F12s and three FV15HPs, is far more than "3 - 4 dB." And if looking at <12.5Hz, it would be fair to post, the difference is even that much more dramatic. confused.gif

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post #14 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

But if buying two or three FV15HPs, the difference between three F12s and three FV15HPs, is far more than "3 - 4 dB." And if looking at <12.5Hz, it would be fair to post, the difference is even that much more dramatic. confused.gif

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Usually even numbers of subs are better? I forgot where I heard this, perhaps the white paper from Harman?
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Usually even numbers of subs are better? I forgot where I heard this, perhaps the white paper from Harman?

I guess we're hosed then as our room doesn't have room enough for four subwoofers unless putting one in the middle of the floor counts as room enough. tongue.gif
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post #16 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 04:04 PM
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^^ Aren't two fv15hps not enough? You don't even listen that loud as I remember you posted.
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post #17 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 04:11 PM
 
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^^ Aren't two fv15hps not enough? You don't even listen that loud as I remember you posted.

Currently, the subs are in the forty hour breakin phase. I don't know if two FV15HPs are enough. Our living room has enough room for three FV15HPs but not enough room for four. Next month, we hope to upgrade the AVR to an AVR that has XT32 and SubEQ HD.

Just a thought, how does one know they have enough subwoofage? What determines having enough subwoofage? When is enough, enough? What metric is used to determine the concept of having too much subwoofage?

(last night, listened to "Battle LA" at -15dB)

Looking forward to upgrading the amplifier that drives the speakers.
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post #18 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 04:18 PM
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What metric is used to determine having too much subwoofage?
Your ears and wallet. Lol. Try the REW room simulator and place your third sub where it gonna be to see if the graph looks any better. I tried that and it actually looks worst in my room where I place them.
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post #19 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 04:31 PM
 
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Your ears and wallet. Lol. Try the REW room simulator and place your third sub where it gonna be to see if the graph looks any better. I tried that and it actually looks worst in my room where I place them.

Haven't downloaded the "room simulator" version yet. Excellent suggestion. At this time and point, as stated, the next step is too come up with the green to purchase the stated AVR upgrade.

(maybe I can pay for it all by putting $100.00 flier on Dallas to win the Superbowl. Latest odds that I can find for Dallas is 85:1)
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post #20 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Currently, the subs are in the forty hour breakin phase. I don't know if two FV15HPs are enough. Our living room has enough room for three FV15HPs but not enough room for four. Next month, we hope to upgrade the AVR to an AVR that has XT32 and SubEQ HD.

Just a thought, how does one know they have enough subwoofage? What determines having enough subwoofage? When is enough, enough? What metric is used to determine the concept of having too much subwoofage?

(last night, listened to "Battle LA" at -15dB)

Looking forward to upgrading the amplifier that drives the speakers.

I wouldn't really worry about subs breaking in. As for enough subwoofage, it's usually just desired SPL level and evenness of in-room response.
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post #21 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 04:51 PM
 
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I wouldn't really worry about subs breaking in. As for enough subwoofage, it's usually just desired SPL level and evenness of in-room response.

Thanks. I'm not worried about the subs breaking in as win, lose or draw, automatically, they'll get their needed forty hours of burn-in. After the subs get forty plus hours on them, I'll pull out the measuring gear and with the subs in their current position, see how the room measures.
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post #22 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The difference in output is not huge and there are many factors at play other than cone diameter (though yes, all else equal, a 15" should provide higher output). From the Rythmik website:

At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db


A difference of 3 - 4 dB is not very significant, especially for very low bass, and that is max output (probably overkill for the OP, and many others). In the midrange it takes about 10 dB to sound twice as loud, but at very low (and very high) frequencies our hearing rolls off and we are less sensitive so it takes even more.

But if buying two or three FV15HPs, the difference between three F12s and three FV15HPs, is far more than "3 - 4 dB." And if looking at <12.5Hz, it would be fair to post, the difference is even that much more dramatic. confused.gif

-

The thread title is one F15HP vs. two F12's. I did not extrapolate to more than that. Depending upon placement, two F12's would have about the same output as a single F15HP. Of course we could continue adding subs for more drama...

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post #23 of 61 Old 12-26-2013, 04:38 AM
 
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Sorry. Prior to you comment, I had been posting about multiple FV15HPs as opposed to a single FV15HP that even as a single subwoofer, would have more output and dig deeper than a pair of F12s. You're correct in sticking to the parameters of the thread title.

Personally, I have given up on thread titles as I find thread titles are based on wishful financial thinking; hoping to find a genuine hidden diamond in the long list of available budget minded subwoofers. I find the truth will be found in starting with an excessively unrealistic budget, far more then their economics will support and work backwards, finding out what issues they're willing to compromise on until they find themselves being in the position of not being able to compromise on issues any further. At which time and point, that's when they should deal with money issues because now they have a realistic idea of what they're looking for.

In our case, I found this point to be two FV15HPs with an eye on a third FV15HP to be purchased, late next year. The ideal would have been to start with a pair of JTR S2s. But even if purchased one at a time, that's totally outside our economic means so the FV15HP became our/my choice of maximum compromise.

The point of my above is to share with the OP so as to aid their selection process. This as opposed to the simple; as the tread title asks, pick one, A or B.

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post #24 of 61 Old 12-26-2013, 08:32 AM
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I thought the F12's actually went lower in frequency (albeit not as loudly) as the FV15HP? Depends on port tuning, natch... Sealed designs roll off slower than ported designs below the port frequency. Not something I really care about, as I have had mine for several years and have no desire for more (at least unless I get a bigger room!) My response is pretty good to about 10 - 15 Hz in my room, plenty for me.



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post #25 of 61 Old 12-26-2013, 08:47 AM
 
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Sorry, didn't know you had F12's. I'm not going get into knocking anybody's subs.

When comparing Rythmik products, I would say that it's not fair comparing a 12" driver to a 15" driver in depth of extension and output at the lower octave. In my opinion, unless one has super cabin gain to improve lower frequency performance characteristics, depth of extension becomes a moot point in a side-by-side comparison of this kind.

Two delivered F12s are more expensive than a single FV15HP and a single FV15HP has more output than a stacked pair of F12s. Yes, the difference between a single subwoofer and the addition of a second subwoofer is startling. By comparison, in my opinion, our experience, a huge performance increase.

A suggestion to the OP would be, considering the price of two F12s, consider a single FV15HP with, as soon as possible, an eye on a near term purchase of a second one.

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post #26 of 61 Old 12-26-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I thought the F12's actually went lower in frequency (albeit not as loudly) as the FV15HP? Depends on port tuning, natch... Sealed designs roll off slower than ported designs below the port frequency. Not something I really care about, as I have had mine for several years and have no desire for more (at least unless I get a bigger room!) My response is pretty good to about 10 - 15 Hz in my room, plenty for me.



Lower extension means very little if there is not enough output to make use of it. I would much rather have a solid reference capable 20hz and above setup opposed to a setup that will reach 10hz but wont play reference below 30hz. What kind of output can you achieve at 10hz? A frequency response graph does not determine subwoofer performance.

On a side note, it sounds like the OP room should offer some room gain so going sealed may work just fine. I am a fan of dual subs for smoothing the response....dual F12's may do the trick nicely. However I would spring for the extra and go with dual F15HP's if it were me...or E15HP's if keeping size down to waf is a requirement. Dual F15HP's in a smaller room should offer some solid output down into the 8-10hz range.
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post #27 of 61 Old 12-26-2013, 11:36 AM
 
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Just saying, I am still quite surprised how well our FV15HPs blended with the room's decor.

Just saying, once placed in the room, the size of the sub matters much less then one thinks it does, when shopping.

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post #28 of 61 Old 12-26-2013, 01:28 PM
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Just saying, I am still quite surprised how well our FV15HPs blended with the room's decor.

Just saying, once placed in the room, the size of the sub matters much less then one thinks it does, when shopping.

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Tell me about it....I love my powered 15" end tables smile.gif
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post #29 of 61 Old 12-26-2013, 01:45 PM
 
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Tell me about it....I love my powered 15" end tables smile.gif

Agreed.

I was so worried and when the boxes arrived, I was even more worried but once placed, they fit like a snuggling puppy dog and who doesn't like the sight of a snuggling puppy dog?

(went the "Full Monte" today and ordered up an XT32/SubEQ HD equipped Denon 4520CI)

...biggrin.gif
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post #30 of 61 Old 12-26-2013, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I thought the F12's actually went lower in frequency (albeit not as loudly) as the FV15HP? Depends on port tuning, natch... Sealed designs roll off slower than ported designs below the port frequency. Not something I really care about, as I have had mine for several years and have no desire for more (at least unless I get a bigger room!) My response is pretty good to about 10 - 15 Hz in my room, plenty for me.



Lower extension means very little if there is not enough output to make use of it. I would much rather have a solid reference capable 20hz and above setup opposed to a setup that will reach 10hz but wont play reference below 30hz. What kind of output can you achieve at 10hz? A frequency response graph does not determine subwoofer performance.

On a side note, it sounds like the OP room should offer some room gain so going sealed may work just fine. I am a fan of dual subs for smoothing the response....dual F12's may do the trick nicely. However I would spring for the extra and go with dual F15HP's if it were me...or E15HP's if keeping size down to waf is a requirement. Dual F15HP's in a smaller room should offer some solid output down into the 8-10hz range.

I quit playing the "mine is bigger than yours" game decades ago. I have not measured max output all the way down but it's >105 dB at about 20 Hz, don't think I measured at 10 Hz. I am not really interested in going that low, not much content in music and movie stuff sounds OK to me. And that was not max sub output, that was where my mains were about to peak out and I did want want to damage them. I typically listen at levels much, much lower than that.

I usually use a combination of FR and impulse response measurements to dial in my system, rarely will do distortion runs as well just for grins. Hard to pin-point the major distortion culprit at high SPLs (mic or speakers; I use a calibrated measurement mic so have a pretty good idea).

My contributions appear contrary to the majority opinion so I will bow out, better things to do than argue, enjoy. - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Bic Pl 200 Acoustech Platinum Series Subwoofer , Fv15hp Subwoofer
Gear in this thread - X4000 by PriceGrabber.com

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