One JTR Orbit Shifter vs Three Power Sound Audio XS30s - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys,

Which of these two options would you rather (and why) in a 3000 cubic foot sealed theater for movies only?

Other speakers would be JBL or Klipsch professional cinema speakers (the mid sized two way models).

I know the Orbit Shifter is an incredible performer, but vs six 15 inch drivers, I just don't know which is the better choice for three grand. DIY and IB designs are not a option as I just don't want to construct anything.

Thanks,
David
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post #2 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 08:29 AM
 
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Neither. I'd opt for a S2 today and later, another S2.

Unfortunately, one needs almost nine XS30s to equal the out of a single OS, In my opinion, the flaw in the OS is, it doesn't dig deep enough and one loses out on the lower octave.

(if I'm wrong on this point, please, someone, say so)

OTOH, the S2 digs deep, gives one the lower octave and does so with authority. Looking at the lower, 10Hz octave, a single S2 equals four XS30s. In my opinion, if the budget is there, a single S2 is the best price/performance with an eye on getting a second one as soon as possible.

At this price point, another choice to seriously consider, is the PSA Triax as that's an output monster that digs deeper than Hades and with a pair, one can easily expect to get single digit performance at reference level output.. Two of those babies and quite literally, you're going need earthquake insurance. Check out the last couple of pages in the Triax thread.

In our case, our budget would only support two FV15HPs and later this year, I expect to add a third to complete the hat trick. In my opinion, the FV15HP was the middle ground between five XS30s and/or two S2s. The compromise of the FV15HP was, price/performance vs either the XS30 and the S2.

In our case, at 16Hz, the choice was, five XS30s or two FV15HPs. You do the math as to price/performance. Again, I would rather have two S2s or two Triax subs but we can only afford two FV15HPs. Our choice was based on financial compromise. The above is a brief summation of my struggle with the question you're asking about, what my final choice was and why.

In a perfect world, Donald Trump would buy me three S2s or three Triax subs and tell me to be happy and fer-git-about-it.

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post #3 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply.

I had not even thought of the PSA Triax. That seems like a strong contender to the S2, but I would be paying somewhat for a cabinet that will never been seen behind an AT screen wall.
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post #4 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 08:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply.

I had not even thought of the PSA Triax. That seems like a strong contender to the S2, but I would be paying somewhat for a cabinet that will never been seen behind an AT screen wall.

Arguably, the S2 has a bit more output but price wise, if going with basic black, the prices are comparable. I'm not sure how deep the S2 digs. Maybe someone else can share a comparison of the two subwoofers when plying single digit territory.
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post #5 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Guys,

Which of these two options would you rather (and why) in a 3000 cubic foot sealed theater for movies only?

Other speakers would be JBL or Klipsch professional cinema speakers (the mid sized two way models).

I know the Orbit Shifter is an incredible performer, but vs six 15 inch drivers, I just don't know which is the better choice for three grand. DIY and IB designs are not a option as I just don't want to construct anything.

Thanks,
David

Hi David,

IMHO, the OS's dig as deep as anyone needs. Their overall performance is amazing (initial measurements in my room showed flat to under 10Hz) but the output does drop off rapidly below 15Hz. They are simply the best commercial HT sub I have heard and two in my 3600^3 dedicated room was quite a tactile and aural experience . There are lots of good sub options these days and PSA is one of them, but the Orbit Shifters are in a class by themselves commercial sub wise.

Good Luck!
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post #6 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 09:24 AM
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+1 on what RMK said. The single OS LFU we heard at our MN gtg this summer was simply amazing. I couldn't believe the amount of great clean bass coming from just a single unit.

I've heard just about everything on the map except a triax and Cap S2.
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post #7 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 09:36 AM
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It depends on your goals. The OS is more powerful above 20hz than the 3 XS-30's. The 3 XS-20's are more powerful below, not sure by how much. 6 medium excursion 15's vs one high excursion 18.
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post #8 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 10:18 AM
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Having heard both, I'd take a single OS over a pair of Triax's without hesitation.
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post #9 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 10:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Having heard both, I'd take a single OS over a pair of Triax's without hesitation.

Could you expand on your above?

...(why?)
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post #10 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 11:04 AM
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Could you expand on your above?

...(why?)

Out of all the different subs I've heard and owned, the sensitivity, efficiency, and dynamics of a horn are unmatched.

I had quad sealed LMS 5400's with 4kw+ on tap for each one, and hearing the OS opened my eyes to what horns are capable of. I spent the next 6 months building 4 massive horns...

At the end of day, sealed subs are the smallest, but also the most inefficient. The Triax is a great sub, but it's basically 3 sealed 15's in really small enclosures once you divide the total cubic feet into thirds.
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post #11 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 11:35 AM
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Like many are already saying I'd personally go with the OS ULF, and after already having dual XS30 and if I had added a third and picking up an additional 6dB I'd still go with the OS. Also keep in mind that below the tune of the OS it begins to act like a sealed 18" sub. I also believe that even Jeff from JTR still prefers the OS over all of the other subs that he makes, in my mind that says a LOT.

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post #12 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 01:50 PM
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Own an S2.......heard dual OS's before I purchased my S2.

If I could have fit dual OS's behind my screen wall.........I'd own dual OS's. IMHO, OS's are the single most powerful, cleanest subs I've ever head! BTW, I've heard practically very commercial offering too.....
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post #13 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Out of all the different subs I've heard and owned, the sensitivity, efficiency, and dynamics of a horn are unmatched.

I had quad sealed LMS 5400's with 4kw+ on tap for each one, and hearing the OS opened my eyes to what horns are capable of. I spent the next 6 months building 4 massive horns...

At the end of day, sealed subs are the smallest, but also the most inefficient. The Triax is a great sub, but it's basically 3 sealed 15's in really small enclosures once you divide the total cubic feet into thirds.

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Own an S2.......heard dual OS's before I purchased my S2.

If I could have fit dual OS's behind my screen wall.........I'd own dual OS's. IMHO, OS's are the single most powerful, cleanest subs I've ever head! BTW, I've heard practically very commercial offering too.....


It was fun demoing the OS's to both of you gents and it's good to have your own impression validated by other experienced hobbyists. Hard to believe that I sold them this week ... confused.gifsmile.gif

With his DIY horns, Luke has moved the bar up another notch. I can't even imagine what that is like ... eek.gif

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post #14 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 03:33 PM
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One word, intense!
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post #15 of 28 Old 01-04-2014, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Very helpful responses, guys. Your opinions are all much appreciated.
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post #16 of 28 Old 01-18-2014, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Just circling back on this with a slightly different question:

What about one orbit shifter vs three passive ported captivators (crown xls5000x2 powering them with 2500 watts each). I have this idea in my head that it may be cool to have three subs behind a screen wall underneath the LCRs. I have never heard a horn loaded sub so the orbit shifter still may be the top choice if I am not looking for insane single digit freq response.
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post #17 of 28 Old 01-19-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Just circling back on this with a slightly different question:

What about one orbit shifter vs three passive ported captivators (crown xls5000x2 powering them with 2500 watts each). I have this idea in my head that it may be cool to have three subs behind a screen wall underneath the LCRs. I have never heard a horn loaded sub so the orbit shifter still may be the top choice if I am not looking for insane single digit freq response.

It may be cool...............but if you are using multiple seats with multiple rows, then some seats will have great bass.................others not so much. Read Toole's white papers on sub placement.................four subs at wall mid-line is best................2nd best alternative is two subs at mid-line on opposite walls.

I can vouch having subs upfront only is not best method for taming room modes..............................you must think front/back for implementation.
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post #18 of 28 Old 01-25-2014, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Just circling back on this with a slightly different question:

What about one orbit shifter vs three passive ported captivators (crown xls5000x2 powering them with 2500 watts each). I have this idea in my head that it may be cool to have three subs behind a screen wall underneath the LCRs. I have never heard a horn loaded sub so the orbit shifter still may be the top choice if I am not looking for insane single digit freq response.

Three passive ported captivators will outperform a single orbit shifter both in SPL capability and room smoothing. Your choice is excellent - assuming your room works well with the subs under the mains - (like mine does)

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Just circling back on this with a slightly different question:

What about one orbit shifter vs three passive ported captivators (crown xls5000x2 powering them with 2500 watts each). I have this idea in my head that it may be cool to have three subs behind a screen wall underneath the LCRs. I have never heard a horn loaded sub so the orbit shifter still may be the top choice if I am not looking for insane single digit freq response.

It may be cool...............but if you are using multiple seats with multiple rows, then some seats will have great bass.................others not so much. Read Toole's white papers on sub placement.................four subs at wall mid-line is best................2nd best alternative is two subs at mid-line on opposite walls.

I can vouch having subs upfront only is not best method for taming room modes..............................you must think front/back for implementation.

I've literally spent almost a day moving my subs ALL over my room and in my room - my subs actually (conveniently!) measure best (or so close to best it doesn't matter) under my L/R as shown in my signature pics. They are about 1/3 distance from the corners - so 1/3, 2/3 distance from left wall.

I think your plan of having three L/C/R subs could work out well. If the distances from the seating position aren't similar enough you'll need to ensure you can set separate delays. probably in most rooms they would be close enough to not matter.

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post #19 of 28 Old 01-25-2014, 08:25 AM
 
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As one rockets out of orbit (OS), what are the expectations? Just saying, continuous reference level play is more than most can take. At this level of play, what are your thoughts on a pair of JTR Cap S2s?

In a sealed Home Theater Palace of 3000^3, with two S2s banging away, expectedly, you're going have single digit, reference level play......and then some.

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post #20 of 28 Old 01-25-2014, 09:12 AM
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I would never even consider an OS, only the OS LFU, but thats just me.
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post #21 of 28 Old 02-07-2014, 07:34 AM
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OS LFU if your budget is around 3k overall. Imo, best value and more logically practical . Clean, strong, impacting bass...covers 99.98% of bass out there.

I had turned off one of my LFU in my room, which is similar in size to yours, and came back later...was listening for half hour and didn't realize one was off until I glanced over and saw power light was off. A second is good for balancing, but one will keep you extremely happy.

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post #22 of 28 Old 02-07-2014, 07:42 AM
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I would go with 3-4 passive Captivator 2400's. Power them with a pair of Inuke 6000's.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Single digits should not be the top priority because there's hardly anything there when you breach the destination

At this level of play, without having experienced, <10Hz playback, although but a fraction of all content, I have no way of saying if it's missed or not.

In real terms, I'm getting better than 99.5% of the pie......do I need the last 0.5% of the ULF content? Is it an esoteric pursuit; a pursuit of perfection? Is there something buried there that's worth the thousands of extra dollars it take to get to 5Hz?

(it's a philosophical question of curiosity. I have no intention of capitalizing on the response as what we have is what I'm very happy to live with)
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post #24 of 28 Old 02-07-2014, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

At this level of play, without having experienced, <10Hz playback, although but a fraction of all content, I have no way of saying if it's missed or not.

In real terms, I'm getting better than 99.5% of the pie......do I need the last 0.5% of the ULF content? Is it an esoteric pursuit; a pursuit of perfection? Is there something buried there that's worth the thousands of extra dollars it take to get to 5Hz?

(it's a philosophical question of curiosity. I have no intention of capitalizing on the response as what we have is what I'm very happy to live with)

To me, it's a novelty. Kind of like fighting for the last 1/10 of second for the fastest 0-60mph. Practically speaking, you'll be watching movies or listening to music, not drop loads of cash just to do 5 second ulf demo scene all year round. When you watch a popular bass demo scene like FOTP and limit the signal to only everything below 15 or 20Hz to go to the subs, there is only like 3-5 light puffs of air aside from watching the drivers hiccuping quietly like a baby in a climactic cry trying to catch his breath but no sound comes out. This what I experienced with 16 18" drivers in a <1500^3 room.

I believe what most of us are really enjoying with impact and hard hits are above 20Hz.

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post #25 of 28 Old 02-07-2014, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would go with 3-4 passive Captivator 2400's. Power them with a pair of Inuke 6000's.

2 passive captivators is all the SPL I could want. tongue.gif
4 gives you some additional smoothing.


I like the recommendation.

I'm not sure about mating the four captivators with the pair iNuke 6000s. My 2011 models are dual 4 ohm voice coil - so they are either 2 ohm or 8ohm each. The iNuke 6000 can't do two ohm, and it's 8ohm rating is weak for a Cap setup. If you wired two caps together per channel and used a single iNuke DSP you'd be underpowering them too. It's a shame the iNuke DSP 6000 can't bridge or use 2ohm, but I don't think that particular amp is well mated to these subs. When the iNuke 12000 comes out - it'll be a different story. It's capable of 2ohm.

Probably in my estimation two Peavey IPR 7500, or even the IPR 5000 would be a great match for a quad set of Captivators.
Or the Cerwin Vega CV-5000 amp - 1 amp per pair of caps.

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post #26 of 28 Old 02-07-2014, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

At this level of play, without having experienced, <10Hz playback, although but a fraction of all content, I have no way of saying if it's missed or not.

In real terms, I'm getting better than 99.5% of the pie......do I need the last 0.5% of the ULF content? Is it an esoteric pursuit; a pursuit of perfection? Is there something buried there that's worth the thousands of extra dollars it take to get to 5Hz?

(it's a philosophical question of curiosity. I have no intention of capitalizing on the response as what we have is what I'm very happy to live with)

To me, it's a novelty. Kind of like fighting for the last 1/10 of second for the fastest 0-60mph. Practically speaking, you'll be watching movies or listening to music, not drop loads of cash just to do 5 second ulf demo scene all year round. When you watch a popular bass demo scene like FOTP and limit the signal to only everything below 15 or 20Hz to go to the subs, there is only like 3-5 light puffs of air aside from watching the drivers hiccuping quietly like a baby in a climactic cry trying to catch his breath but no sound comes out. This what I experienced with 16 18" drivers in a <1500^3 room.

I believe what most of us are really enjoying with impact and hard hits are above 20Hz.


NAILED IT

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post #27 of 28 Old 02-07-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

To me, it's a novelty. Kind of like fighting for the last 1/10 of second for the fastest 0-60mph. Practically speaking, you'll be watching movies or listening to music, not drop loads of cash just to do 5 second ulf demo scene all year round. When you watch a popular bass demo scene like FOTP and limit the signal to only everything below 15 or 20Hz to go to the subs, there is only like 3-5 light puffs of air aside from watching the drivers hiccuping quietly like a baby in a climactic cry trying to catch his breath but no sound comes out. This what I experienced with 16 18" drivers in a <1500^3 room.

I believe what most of us are really enjoying with impact and hard hits are above 20Hz.
Perfectly stated. I am one of the least knowledgeable folk around here but I realized that a while back:D. Common sense.

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post #28 of 28 Old 02-07-2014, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

2 passive captivators is all the SPL I could want. tongue.gif
4 gives you some additional smoothing.


I like the recommendation.

I'm not sure about mating the four captivators with the pair iNuke 6000s. My 2011 models are dual 4 ohm voice coil - so they are either 2 ohm or 8ohm each. The iNuke 6000 can't do two ohm, and it's 8ohm rating is weak for a Cap setup. If you wired two caps together per channel and used a single iNuke DSP you'd be underpowering them too. It's a shame the iNuke DSP 6000 can't bridge or use 2ohm, but I don't think that particular amp is well mated to these subs. When the iNuke 12000 comes out - it'll be a different story. It's capable of 2ohm.

Probably in my estimation two Peavey IPR 7500, or even the IPR 5000 would be a great match for a quad set of Captivators.
Or the Cerwin Vega CV-5000 amp - 1 amp per pair of caps.

Ahh I was thinking they were 8ohm drivers...thanks for clarifying.
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