reciver suggestions (subwoofer specific) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

"Rated Output Power (1kHz, 1ch driven) 100 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD)"

In order to obtain the sensation of "twice as loud" would take an amp with 200 wpc, which is like hens teeth to find in an AVR. Twice as loud is just 6 clicks on the volume control on your remote. Try it, and see how much you want to pay for that experience.
The best automated tool for that would probably be an AVR with Audyssey Multieq XT at minimum, and Audyssey Subeq would pretty much frost the cake. You've been given some good advice about that.
Rated at 100W 1 channel driven at 1khz. Who listen to just one channel and only at 1khz? With five channel driven across the full 20-20khz, it might be just rated at 60W. He needs at least XT32 with subEQ HT to calibrate his subs. DENON X4000 is the cheapest for that.

It's a sine wave test with a resistive load. Pure sine waves have much higher energy demands than music - often by as much as 10x or more, but no less than 2x. Resistive loads tend to stress amps more than real world speakers, even if there are some impedance dips down to 3.5 ohms or so.

The more relevant question is "Who listens at peak levels all day?" The answer is usually: Nobody.

When people actually obtain the means to evaluate the power they are actually using, they are usually surprised at how little it is.

I agree that the Denon X4000 is a good tool for automatic equalization of home systems, but nobody with a brain is claiming that a real, thinking, learning human being with about $200 of measurement gear can't do better.

One important point to bear in mind even if one buys the X4000, is that its extra amp power is probably not make a mind-blowing difference. The word inaudible comes to mind. OTOH a better job of system eq can make a nice difference or in some cases one that blows the mind. And, you don't have to buy a new AVR to get it.
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post #32 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 08:19 AM
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I find myself in a very similar situation as newc33. I have a 7.2 setup with EMP's and 2 XV15. I've been looking to upgrade my receiver for a few while now but having trouble deciding. I have been hearing a lot about Denon X4000 and 4520ci all over the forms. Seems like you can't go wrong. But what about Anthem 510 or 710, or even NAD? How would they compare in sound quality/performance to the Denons?

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post #33 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

With five channel driven across the full 20-20khz, it might be just rated at 60W..
Moot. One should not be running an AVR from 20Hz, and seldom is an AVR called upon to deliver more than 10w channel anyway. The above advice given by arnyk is golden. If you don't know what levels your system is actually running at you have no clue as to whether more power would be of any benefit. If you do need more power less than a 4x increase isn't worth the trouble or expense.

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post #34 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 09:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bigjoexxl View Post

I have been hearing a lot about Denon X4000 and 4520ci all over the forms. Seems like you can't go wrong.

I went with the 4520ci for a few basic reasons:

Amplifier section; 4 ohm capable for extended reference level play

XT32/SubEQ HT capable; dual sub EQ capable

Single box solution; no need for an outboard amplifier
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post #35 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 09:33 AM
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I definatly want something with some wattage over 100 per channel.
1000 watts is two times louder than 100 watts. So dont expect miracles.
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post #36 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Yup, that's right 10x the power for the impression of "Twice as loud". My bad! Thanks for the quick correction.

And of course 10 times the power creates a potentially very stressful situation for the speakers.

The bottom line, as we have just about discussed to death but keep shaking people up with, is that few audiophiles know how much power they actually need or are using.

The best I've come up with is just an approximation, but it involves using a power calculator such as this one:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

It helps to know what current peak SPLs are like, and that is fairly easily determined using a SPL meter with a fast response and peak hold feature such as this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271167212819?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


Okay I do have the raidio shack spl meter but I have never me assured max spl

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post #37 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Slow down guys I need time to absorb all this! Hahahahah

I do really appreaciate all the info!

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post #38 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I have looked into the x4000 and it looks awesome! You guys did a great job of finding something in my buget that is exactly what I'm looking for.

I like that I could add front high speakers if I wanted of save those for other zones.

125w per channel would be plenty and I ever felt I still wanted more I could always buy an amp(doubt i d need to though)

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post #39 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Also as far as spls go I did play some five finger death punch on my mains only, using them full range w/ no sub.

If I rember right was hitting dbs in the low to mid 90s absolutely clean. That was -10 dbs from reference at my MLP (ABOUT 17 feet away from mains)

Should I continue to push my speakers harder to see where they begin to distort? Can I harm them doing so?

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post #40 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 10:31 AM
 
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My concern, is that large sucking sound which occurs when the action picks up and the subs (even weak ones) overtake the speakers (main sound levels), as the speakers move to the background. Very disheartening. IMO, the only cure, amplification that's worth a Tinker's Damn.
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post #41 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

I have looked into the x4000 and it looks awesome! You guys did a great job of finding something in my buget that is exactly what I'm looking for.

I like that I could add front high speakers if I wanted of save those for other zones.

125w per channel would be plenty and I ever felt I still wanted more I could always buy an amp(doubt i d need to though)

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here. As has been said before the X4000 is a very nice AVR and it's got a price within your budget (albeit the top end of your budget).

 

But more over, this thread has some great information concerning power needs of the typical audio set up and if it wasn't for the the fact that the X4000 has Audyssey's flagship XT32 I would say you could easily get by with a cheaper AVR with less power; actually you still could get by if you are willing to get into room measurements and EQ-ing (as has already been mentioned above). 

 

Personally I agree that 125 watts is plenty. But I also think the advice to get measuring equipment is wise, regardless of whether you end up with an AVR with XT32 or not. I'm currently in the same boat, It's time for me to spend the $200 and get the gear to do some measuring and EQ-ing. 

 

Great information in the posts above guys, great thread.

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post #42 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 01:17 PM
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If advanced mcacc calibrates down to 63hz, speakers set to small, crossover set to 100hz, is it equalizing the sub from 63-100hz or is it ignoring anything below crossover point? My apologies if this question should be in another thread?
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post #43 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ainsworth View Post

If advanced mcacc calibrates down to 63hz, speakers set to small, crossover set to 100hz, is it equalizing the sub from 63-100hz or is it ignoring anything below crossover point? My apologies if this question should be in another thread?

Yes and No. The standing wave function has 3 filters for the subwoofer. The filters adjust the attenuation, bandwidth or Q and frequency. This is what a parametric EQ will do. Due to it only going down to 63 Hz, it does not EQ the entire subwoofer frequency range. But, it will adjust the subwoofer phase and time align things to get the sound right. MCACC is very effective if the 3 position standing wave calibration is used with multiple subwoofers and will do a great job with overall system integration. What it does with standing waves is equally as important as subwoofer EQ IMHO. One caveat to this is that it works great with active subwoofers with built-in amp. Passive subwoofer may need a bass boost in the lower frequencies which can be done with PEQ. The down fall of PEQ is that it only works in the frequency domain. This mean that it should be the last step in calibration. Audyssey and PEQ may be handle differently when using additional PEQ

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post #44 of 44 Old 01-06-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Yes and No. The standing wave function has 3 filters for the subwoofer. The filters adjust the attenuation, bandwidth or Q and frequency. This is what a parametric EQ will do. Due to it only going down to 63 Hz, it does not EQ the entire subwoofer frequency range. But, it will adjust the subwoofer phase and time align things to get the sound right. MCACC is very effective if the 3 position standing wave calibration is used with multiple subwoofers and will do a great job with overall system integration. What it does with standing waves is equally as important as subwoofer EQ IMHO. One caveat to this is that it works great with active subwoofers with built-in amp. Passive subwoofer may need a bass boost in the lower frequencies which can be done with PEQ. The down fall of PEQ is that it only works in the frequency domain. This mean that it should be the last step in calibration. Audyssey and PEQ may be handle differently when using additional PEQ

Thanks! After running calibration routine, the graph shows 3 filters around 80-90hz where it looks like corrections were made, assuming those are my room nodes?
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