New SVS PB2000 and SB2000 subs!!!!!! - Page 34 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #991 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 06:01 AM
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While I think Smitty comes off as a bit harsh and probably not too accurate, I've always wondered about his "point"

How many people in this hobby who listenay reference develop signs of hearing damage - tinnitus, measurable hearing loss not yet noticeable, or even frank hearing loss?
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post #992 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
 

~~hamptons -> NP, like you my health is a priority!

 

People like BEAR are "know-it-alls" always just want to hear their own voice and feel they are correct.  I do not doubt he may be an intelligent individual in his own way.... But he has no clue what he is talking about in terms of ear functionality and sound pressure levels.

 

The fact that over 10 MILLION people in the states suffer from NIHL (noise induced hearing loss) how can one say that it is NOT a concern for us audio and video enthusiast?

 

Outside that, another one of Bears uneducated "guesses" states "~~Turns out, you are also wrong about 100 dB causing hearing damage in 15 minutes"  You are wrong.  Here is an easy source for your reference.  Please use it instead of guessing and miss guiding people with your claims -> http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/noise-induced-hearing-loss/

 

Anyways, I'm just presenting the information that seems to be difficult for some to know with all the miss-guided information thrown all over the net by amateurs like Bear.  At the end of the day everything has limits.  Over 100 dB is extremely loud, if you do not get enough feeling, get bass shakers... They will give you a feel that is SAFE and better than what a subwoofer can deliver.

 

Hope this helps out.  Let me know if you need more information or references.

 

God bless!

Smittyfit

__OSHA guidelines:____________________________________________________________
                            |
  Duration per day, hours   | Sound level dBA slow response
____________________________|_________________________________
                            |
8...........................|                    90
6...........................|                    92
4...........................|                    95
3...........................|                    97
2...........................|                   100
1 1/2 ......................|                   102
1...........................|                   105
1/2 ........................|                   110
1/4  or less................|                   115
____________________________|________________________________

 

Again, before throwing around insults and calling people amateurs,  do a bit more research.

Furthermore, no one said it should not be a concern.  I said that it should(reading comprehension before bashing, yet again), just that your "expertise" is not as cut and dry as you seem to think it is.

 

 

Having said that, and returning to a reasonable discussion, I do believe, as I stated previously, that we should all be concerned with what safe listening levels are.

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post #993 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 06:43 AM
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When I apply OSHA's guidelines to watching movies in a reasonably intelligent manner, it would seem that one could watch a movie at an average SPL of 90 dB for two hours(osha allows 8), with LFE peaks of 110 dB(OSHA allows 30 minutes) without any adverse affects on ones hearing.  Unless listening at full reference level, which very few do, it would appear that this would be completely safe for our hearing.  The LFE peaks tend to be brief bursts and would never amount to a  nonstop continuous output level of 110 dB for 30 minutes.  So to make a statement that a PB2000 capable of maximum peaks of 100 dB or higher will cause hearing loss, is a rather unintelligent interpretation of the data when we consider this in a real world scenario.

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post #994 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

When I apply OSHA's guidelines to watching movies in a reasonably intelligent manner, it would seem that one could watch a movie at an average SPL of 90 dB for two hours(osha allows 8), with LFE peaks of 110 dB(OSHA allows 30 minutes) without any adverse affects on ones hearing.  Unless listening at full reference level, which very few do, it would appear that this would be completely safe for our hearing.  The LFE peaks tend to be brief bursts and would never amount to a  nonstop continuous output level of 110 dB for 30 minutes.  So to make a statement that a PB2000 capable of maximum peaks of 100 dB or higher will cause hearing loss, is a rather unintelligent interpretation of the data when we consider this in a real world scenario.

Look up the difference between dBA and dBC weighting for an even better understanding of hearing conservation. dBA is used for hearing damage measurments. The roll-off at low frequencies is pretty significant because your ear actually filters out most of the content. That is why low frequencies are not as damaging at high SPL's as high freqiencies.

If a person is truly concerned they should consult with an audiologist not an internet forum.
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post #995 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

If a person is truly concerned they should consult with an audiologist not an internet forum.

It would be great if we could end this somewhat toxic discussion on that note. Reminds me of...

- The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the red zone.

- The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the white zone.

- No, the white zone is for loading of passengers and there is no stopping in a RED zone.

- The red zone has always been for loading and unloading of passengers. There's never stopping in a white zone.

- Don't you tell me which zone is for loading, and which zone is for stopping!

- Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone sh#t again.
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post #996 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 07:23 AM
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Sound Pressure Weighting
Various acoustical measuring instruments employ frequency-selective weighting filters. By definition, a weighted-frequency scale is simply a series of correction factors that are applied to sound pressure levels as a function of frequency.
 
Octave-Band Correction Factors for Weighting Networks
Commonly Used in Noise Measurements
Octave-Band Center Frequency A-Weighting (dB) B-Weighting (dB) C- Weighting (dB)
31.5 -39.4 -17.1 -3.0
63 -26.2 -9.3 -0.8
125 -16.1 -4.2 -0.2
250 -8.6 -1.3 0
500 -3.2 -0.3 0
1,000 0 0 0
2,000 +1.2 -0.1 -0.2
4,000 +1.0 -0.7 -0.8
8,000 -1.1 -2.9 -3.0

standard weighting networks - For problems with accessibility in using figures and illustrations, please contact the Directorate of Technical Support and Emergency Management at (202) 693-2300.The most common weighting networks are designated A, B, and C. They were designed to approximate the equal-loudness contours at:
  • Low sound pressure levels for the A-network (App I:A-4),
  • Medium sound pressure levels for the B-network, and
  • High levels for the C-network.


By using these weighting networks, the measuring instrument is able to respond to some frequencies more than others.
  • The very low frequencies are attenuated:
    • Greatly by the A-network,
    • Moderately by the B-network, and
    • Minimally by the C-network
      • Example: If the measured sound level of a noise is much higher on C-weighting than on A-weighting, much of the noise energy is probably low frequency.
  • It has been found that the A-network gives a better estimation of the threat to human hearing than the other networks. The A-network is required by OSHA for measuring noise in the workplace and is widely used in describing occupational and environmental noise.
  • The C-network is sometimes used in conjunction with the A-network to determine if a sound is predominantly low-frequency in nature.
    • To perform this evaluation, A-network and C-network readings are obtained simultaneously for a given noise source.
    • If the noise has significant low-frequency components, the C reading will be higher than the A. If it does not, the two readings will be similar.
    • C-network readings are also necessary when determining the amount of attenuation from hearing protection.

 

For those concerned with how loud they can listen to music, movies, and bass without damaging hearing, this quote describes A-network weighting and how much less heavily lower frequencies are weighted.

 

Compare this with OSHA's allowable exposure time, or even the NIOSH standards if you want to be more conservative.  It allows for quite high levels of low frequency sounds for rather long durations without damaging hearing.

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post #997 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 07:40 AM
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Game, set, match

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post #998 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 07:53 AM
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I don't think the chart is very helpful; I think it was a given that low frequency sounds were less damaging than high freq - adding phrases like "a-network" didn't really add much clarity. For me anyway.

The cdc/niosh recs were very conservative, huh?

105db for 5 minutes?
110db for 1.5 minutes?

They rec ear protection for longer duration....
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post #999 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post

I don't think the chart is very helpful; I think it was a given that low frequency sounds were less damaging than high freq - adding phrases like "a-network" didn't really add much clarity. For me anyway.

The cdc/niosh recs were very conservative, huh?

105db for 5 minutes?
110db for 1.5 minutes?

They rec ear protection for longer duration....

This translates:  NIOSH allows 110 dB for 1 minute or so, A-weighted.  So a 63 Hz subwoofer produced SPL of 110 = 84dB when A-weighted(110dB - 26 db). So you can listen to this level of continuous bass output for 10 hours by the most conservative NIOSH standards.  115 dB reference level bass at 63 Hz has a threshold of 3 hours ten minutes.  Not many reference level SPL peaks last that long in any movie I know of ;)

 

If you lower the frequency to 31 Hz, the A-scale correction is -39 dB.  Meaning 115 dB at this frequency equates to 76 dB.  There is no hearing loss at this SPL according to NIOSH over any duration.

 

Hopefully this clarifies how the information relates to forum members watching movies/listening to music in regards to safe listening levels.

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post #1000 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 08:14 AM
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Again, no - it seems it is pertinent if your listening to test tones, but not so much real world content.

I'm too lazy to delve into it, but is seems for real world content all we're left with are the very conservative reccomendations listed above...
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post #1001 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 08:20 AM
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The point is that using A-weighting in regards to safe levels of bass means you are not going to damage your hearing with a subwoofer putting out reference level peaks of 115 dB.  In fact, you could listen to this level for hours continuously with no hearing damage.  Now if the higher frequencies coming through the main channels were at a very high SPL, this is what has a greater risk to your hearing.

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post #1002 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 09:35 AM
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post #1003 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post

I don't think the chart is very helpful; I think it was a given that low frequency sounds were less damaging than high freq - adding phrases like "a-network" didn't really add much clarity. For me anyway.

The cdc/niosh recs were very conservative, huh?

105db for 5 minutes?
110db for 1.5 minutes?

They rec ear protection for longer duration....

 

That graphic didn't just add the phrase "a-network", it quantitatively illustrated exactly what the a weighting does. It's one thing to say "low frequencies are weighted lower" and quite another to show "--161 at 125 hz, -26.2 dB at 63 Hz and -39.4 dB at 31.5 Hz"

 

Which pretty much quantitatively and definitively shows exactly why a PB-2000 rumbling away during an action movie, is extraordinarily unlikely to be a danger to your hearing (I would personally say 'impossible', but that is a strong statement, so I'll stick to extraordinarily unlikely)


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post #1004 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 10:28 AM
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I suppose for a guy like Smitty it's useful, but if you've allready accepted that low frequencies are unlikely (not impossible)to hurt, not altogether useful.

I guess I shouldn't have jumped into the middle of the Smitty-bear213 debate , but my seperate question is what db and for how long can you listen to real world content -- for which the graphs don't add a whole lot.

I'll stop polluting the SVS thread further on this...,
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post #1005 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post

I suppose for a guy like Smitty it's useful, but if you've allready accepted that low frequencies are unlikely (not impossible)to hurt, not altogether useful.

I guess I shouldn't have jumped into the middle of the Smitty-bear213 debate , but my seperate question is what db and for how long can you listen to real world content -- for which the graphs don't add a whole lot.

I'll stop polluting the SVS thread further on this...,

Something I try to keep in mind on public forums is that a lot of people are going to end up reading the discussion. Far more than the people who are currently actively participating. Lots of members who will just passively read, future members who read back and do searches, non-members who find the forum and search it while looking for info, random people who find the posts or thread as a result of a Google search, etc.

 

Providing information only and specifically for one person, or a very small group of people (current active posters) might sell everybody else short.

 

In other words, I don't assume that every person other than smitty who will ever read this will have 'already accepted' anything. And neither does bear.

 

When somebody is absolutely, matter of factly, provably incorrect, for an on-topic aspect particularly, it is, in my opinion, worth showing the references instead of just saying "nuh-uh"!

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post #1006 of 1618 Old 04-08-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

This translates:  NIOSH allows 110 dB for 1 minute or so, A-weighted.  So a 63 Hz subwoofer produced SPL of 110 = 84dB when A-weighted(110dB - 26 db). So you can listen to this level of continuous bass output for 10 hours by the most conservative NIOSH standards.  115 dB reference level bass at 63 Hz has a threshold of 3 hours ten minutes.  Not many reference level SPL peaks last that long in any movie I know of wink.gif

If you lower the frequency to 31 Hz, the A-scale correction is -39 dB.  Meaning 115 dB at this frequency equates to 76 dB.  There is no hearing loss at this SPL according to NIOSH over any duration.

Hopefully this clarifies how the information relates to forum members watching movies/listening to music in regards to safe listening levels.

Thanks for this explanation. Interesting. My wife was asking about this stuff when I talked about the levels the 1000 and 2000 series subs can reach.

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post #1007 of 1618 Old 04-09-2014, 05:31 AM
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Neither one of those subs will damage your hearing and those levels were measured from 2m away. If you have your sub across the room, it will obviously be a lot less output at the MLP.
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post #1008 of 1618 Old 04-09-2014, 11:51 PM
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I just received my SB-2000 today, ran the MultEQ from Denon E300, I bought this sub for mostly music playing in a small computer room (11ft x 9ft x 9ft ceiling), but wanted to try it on a few movies anyway to see how it fair against the old PB12-ISD that I bought back in 2004, my old PB12-ISD walks all over it on movies, let me re-phrase...the old sub completely blew it out of the water, this wimpy little sub failed miserably! Played the incredible hulk, transformers, black hawk down, and SW's pod race scene and the SB was choking and out of wind very quickly, I didn't expect it to suck so bad in those movies! I had the PB12-ISD gain set at only 10~11 o'clock.

Sub level from receiver at -3dB~0dB so i don't think the signal was clipping, had the sub gain set at 50%, not feeling it, turned it up to 2 o'clock like most people suggested for these 2000 series, this thing started to distort...had my volume up to only -30dB (scale from -79 to 18dB). Moved it out to the family room (18ft x 12ft x 9ft ceiling), did the sub crawl and re-calibrated with MultEQ X32 from Denon x4000, same deal....good for music and sucks bad for movie. The only positive is that for music it is definitely more responsive and quicker/tighter than the PB12-ISD, but i listen to a lot of Techno and Dubsteps and this wimpy little sub ain't cutting it and distort easily. I think i made up my mind and going to be calling SVS and proceed to returning it and pay a little more for the PB-2000 instead, as some people were saying the PB-2000 isn't half bad for music anyway, at least I know what to expect from a ported sub.....

What have I learned so far from this SB-2000?
1) it sucks bad at action movie, almost as bad as the $90 Polk PSW10 (which i also have): I wasn't looking to shake the house apart or anything in that nature, as I rarely tax my PB12-ISD. I don't listen at reference level either, receiver volume only at 40~50% most of the time, I'm not a bass head but man I would need a stack of at least 4 of these little boogers to get the same satisfaction level as one old PB12-ISD!
2) small footprint, very small in comparison to the gigantic PB12-ISD
3) SB-2000 is only $100 cheaper than PB-2000, not that big of a price difference so if I were to only have one sub to play everything, it won't be SB-2000 for sure.
4) it does better for music than the PB12-ISD, much more accurate and detail.
5) rounded edges everywhere, feels like it would slipped out of my hands, wish it has a handle bar on top so it's easier to pick up and move around.
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post #1009 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 02:20 AM
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4) it does better for music than the PB12-ISD, much more accurate and detail.

uh oh lol

As for ported versus sealed, that's why I went for the best SB as I knew it loses maximum spl output, compared to the ported. But I wanted the more musical SB presentation. My room is similar to yours. I have a SVS SB12+ and compared to ported Ultra, way inferior (obviously) so SB2000 would not equal ported ultra even in a small room...so SBU13 was my best choice.

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post #1010 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 02:33 AM
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uh oh lol

As for ported versus sealed, that's why I went for the best SB as I knew it loses maximum spl output, compared to the ported. But I wanted the more musical SB presentation. My room is similar to yours. I have a SVS SB12+ and compared to ported Ultra, way inferior (obviously) so SB2000 would not equal ported ultra even in a small room...so SBU13 was my best choice.

I can deal with having less output, but it seriously lack authority and grunt...the SB2000 feels like a teaser, I ain't got a big appetite to begin with but this is like only getting a small portion of a full course meal LOL the SB-2000 is way too tame for me, other people may be able to live with it but i can't put up with this for $700....
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post #1011 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 03:22 AM
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You might be happier with the ported version then.  Max spl between the two will be similar, the PB will just have triple the output for movie LFE.  As far as music they will play about the same.  A 17 Hz port tune isnt going to affect music when its all over 40 Hz.

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post #1012 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 03:31 AM
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As far as music they will play about the same.

He said for music the SB was superior. Pay attention. I agree with him too.
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Max spl between the two will be similar, the PB will just have triple the output for movie LFE

huh? Contradicting yourself.

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post #1013 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post


He said for music the SB was superior. Pay attention. I agree with him too.
huh? Contradicting yourself.

Sorry you don't understand the difference.  Max spl normally does not occur in the 18-30 Hz movie LFE region.  To clarify, max spl, which normally happens in the 50-80Hz region, is about the same between the SB2000 and PB2000.  Although max SPL will be about the same(within a dB or so) The PB2000 will have 3-4 times the output for movies down low (i.e. 103 dB at 20 Hz vs 92 dB).  Hope this helps you to understand the difference.

 

As far as the two subs sounding different for music, this will be more due to unavoidable bias in knowing which sub is playing, than any actual difference.  A superior sub such as the SB13 might be a different story, but with bias removed such as level matching in a blind test, even those with "golden ears" would not be able to tell which sub was playing.  The problem is, people that are convinced they will hear a difference, will.  And they will argue vehemently about how much more musical one is over the other.  Blind tests tend to magically level the playing field.  Same thing happens with "audiophile" amps.

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post #1014 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 03:46 AM
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oh please this nonsense again.

Have you owned a SB Ultra 13 and a PC Ultra 13 / PB Ultra 13?

Nope.

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post #1015 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 03:50 AM
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I would say that a $1500 sub would likely sound better than a $700 sub.  Given two equivalent quality subs such as the SB2000 and PB2000, if you don't think bias and the perception of a difference plays a bigger part than an actual difference that could be identified in a blind test, you are kidding yourself.  The nonsense is believing there is that big of a difference because you think there is one.  So that you don't gloss the point over, a vastly superior sub such as the SB13 would likely sound better due to the difference in quality between the half price and lower subs.

 

Giving evidence such as nuh-uh it sounded more musical to me....is evidence that your are missing the point of the whole unavoidable bias issue, and why blind tests give a different result.

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post #1016 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 03:55 AM
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So the answer is no, you haven't owned either

SB2000
PB2000

SB12+
20-39 PC Plus

SB1000
PB1000

SB Ultra 13
PC Ultra 13/PB Ultra 13

You haven't. LOL

I have, two of those catergories.

Ben has, but you're overiding his opinions. Nope he's wrong LOL LOL

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post #1017 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ben805 View Post


I can deal with having less output, but it seriously lack authority and grunt...the SB2000 feels like a teaser, I ain't got a big appetite to begin with but this is like only getting a small portion of a full course meal LOL the SB-2000 is way too tame for me, other people may be able to live with it but i can't put up with this for $700....

Relative to the PB2000, the SB2000 is "rather tame", but it does have good value, depending on what one wants from a subwoofer.

 

I just received my son's PB2000 yesterday, put in in the main sub sweetspot where one of my SB2000s sits, turned off the other SB, and eagerly gave it a listen all day long.

 

Throughout the day, I listened to my chilled out dub step and atmospheric drum n bass tracks ... exactly as I've been reading here and there, the output capability easily outdoes a single SB2000.  The lowest of the low notes do seem to have a little more authority, although upper mid-bass might not be as tight as the SB.  

 

Musically, my dual SB2000s handle all the low frequency content of the above mentioned musical genre with ease ... they sound great and I could't be happier with my upgrade from a single ML Dynamo700 ( while the D700 has plenty of comparable output relative to the SB, the SB2000 delivers a little more detail and precision, especially in the mid-bass region ... that is where the SB2000 shines :-).

 

For HT though, the single PB2000 delivers more of what we're looking for than even my dual SB2000s ... last evening, as luck would have it, our Netflix delivery was the third of the LOTR trilogy, and the PB2000 didn't disappoint ... even though I didn't bother to re-run Audyssey XT for the trial run, it clearly outdistanced the dual SBs when it came to LFE content ... it sounded quite authoritative, quite capable.

 

So, who is the PB2000 for ?  Anyone who values good LFE presentation, has and extra $100, and can accommodate a significantly larger sub ... my son also enjoys an occasional video game, and the LFE content on some of those offerings will certainly translate quite well through the PB2000 into a more satisfying experience.  

 

And who is the SB2000 for ? Me :-)  My wife and I don't watch many action movies ( although I did order the first LOTR a few weeks ago to see what my new subs could or couldn't deliver ... while the physical, tactile feeling from the LFE content wasn't quite there, it was still pleasantly audible - to the point where my wife asked me to turn it down a little bit :-) ... would I like to feel the rumble of this or that LFE content while watching a movie ? Sure.  But that opportunity is few and far between, considering what we watch.  

 

Again, who is the SB2000 for ?  Me and my wife :-)  I let her primarily decide what we watch/stream from Netflix, and I run the show with the music ( how many women in their late fifties get to and not object to listening to a sweet 5.2 audio system kickin' out the laid-back dub tracks and accompanying deep bass that rocks my dwelling ? ) ... she saw the size of the PB2000, and all of a sudden, the dual SBs didn't seem so big after all :-)

 

My SB2000s are perfect for me ( 2,400 cf with a large opening into a 1,400 cf dining room ) ... someone with a smaller room to fill, who doesn't need to feel the LFE movie content and wants clean, tight bass for music would do well to order a single SB2000.

 

My son's PB2000 will rock tha house in his new apartment this summer ( one roommate is supplying the furniture, the other the dishes, pots & pans, and James ... audio and video ... Yeah!!! ) ... I can't wait to help him hook it all up when June rolls around.


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Emotiva XPA-3
SVS SB13ultra

exercise room: MartinLogan LX16s / Dynamo700
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post #1018 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

So the answer is no, you haven't owned either

SB2000
PB2000

SB12+
20-39 PC Plus

SB1000
PB1000

SB Ultra 13
PC Ultra 13/PB Ultra 13

You haven't. LOL

I have, two of those catergories.

Ben has, but you're overiding his opinions. Nope he's wrong LOL LOL


I don't have to have owned every sub ever made to know that perception/bias plays a significant role in what we think we hear in terms of things such as "musicality" "tightness" "articulate" "warm" "clean" and other subjective impressions that are associated with sound quality.

 

Do you hear a difference?  Of course...perception is reality.  But to think that what you perceive is not affected by unavoidable biases that come into play is to ignore reality.  The point is, and many carefully executed tests confirm, these perceived differences suddenly are not quite so clear when bias is removed in blind testing.

 

I can acknowledge that you hear a difference.  You seem rather stubborn in not accepting that much of what we hear is due to perception, bias, and believing we will hear a difference, which of course results in that being the case.  I do not think all subs sound identical, so don't get me wrong.  I find it completely plausible that a superb quality sub like the SB13 ultra can and does sound better than inferior quality subs. 

 

What I disagree with is people looking for a new sub who pass up a PB2000 for a SB2000 in order to get a sub that is more "musical", even though they are looking for great output for movies and can fit the larger sub.  I think this is a false classification, and that there is not a substantial difference between roughly equivalent ported and sealed subs such as these two.  Could there be minor differences? Yes, I believe so, but not enough to pass up four times the output for someone who is looking for a lot of impact for movies.

 

As TomC pointed out, his son's single PB2000 was much stronger on movies than his dual SB2000's.  For him that's ok, that is not what he is looking for.  The SB2000's are perfect for him.  And on music they are more similar than different.

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post #1019 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 04:43 AM
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As TomC pointed out, his son's single PB2000 was much stronger on movies than his dual SB2000's. For him that's ok, that is not what he is looking for. The SB2000's are perfect for him. And on music they are more similar than different.

TWO people have used PB and SB, and putting word in their mouth. You rotten liar. Plus myself.

rolleyes.gif

No you don't need to own every sub, but a SB1000 and PB1000 (same driver, same amp) But you haven't thus your opinions are irrelevent.

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post #1020 of 1618 Old 04-10-2014, 05:18 AM
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TWO people have used PB and SB, and putting word in their mouth. You rotten liar. Plus myself.

rolleyes.gif

No you don't need to own every sub, but a SB1000 and PB1000 (same driver, same amp) But you haven't thus your opinions are irrelevent.


A reasonably intelligent person can form opinions based on others experiences who have much greater knowledge in a subject area.  If Bill Fitzmaurice, for example, states that dual subs add 6 dB of output, I tend to feel pretty comfortable accepting that as a factual statement.  Have I level matched two identical subs with an SPL to 75 dB, then played both to confirm I get 81?  No.  Does that mean it is not the truth?  No.  To make a statement that one must have personal experience with something in order for it to be factual is rather simple minded, truth be told.

 

Calling someone a rotten liar because they hold a different opinion than you....shame on you.

 

Here is another example of information that has swayed my opinion on the matter.   I have read up on many GTG threads in which enthusiasts, most of whom have been in this hobby for many years, with much more vast experience than myself listening to many more subs than I have, and of much higher quality, who are unable to tell the difference between subs of similar quality in blind tests.  And not just the same brand.  People who have this level of experience, who cannot reliably tell the difference between horn loaded orbit shifters, dual opposed sealed Seaton Submersives, Ported subs, captivators etc when the subs have been level matched and eq'd flat.  So to assume that I, or you, can truthfully tell a big difference in "musicality" between two similar subs, is, in my book, a naive perspective on your ability to hear such differences.

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