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post #61 of 74 Old 01-11-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

All of the major brands seem to attract some criticism that some of their components are mediocre. I'm really not sure how to assess this. Is the assessment that PSA's drivers are supposedly mediocre widely shared?

At this point, the Rhythmik seems the most universally supported option but is really pushing the budget. PSA and Outlaw seem like contenders. So do SVS and Hsu, though each have their share of detractors. I don't feel well enough informed at this point to make a final choice, though I do recognize there are probably lots of good ones to be made.

All the subs discussed here are designed with consideration and then compromises are made (e.g., size, weight, price-point, choice of components, niche, etc.)

I personally don't think it worthwhile to compare manufacturers broadly, except for reputation. None of the ones mentioned have any real dings and they all make good products. There just isn't a one-size-fits-all and a better strategy is to compare subwoofers that meet your criteria. I can understand caution when considering ID manufacturers that are generally not household names, but these companies have all endured the stink test. PSA is fairly new, but it has good pedigree and is putting out some interesting subs with an excited following.

Subs that are often recommended here are rarely bad choices. They just might not be popular, solve the problem, or fit your budget. The cool part is that you get to choose.

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post #62 of 74 Old 01-11-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

All the subs discussed here are designed with consideration and then compromises are made (e.g., size, weight, price-point, choice of components, niche, etc.)

I personally don't think it worthwhile to compare manufacturers broadly, except for reputation. None of the ones mentioned have any real dings and they all make good products. There just isn't a one-size-fits-all and a better strategy is to compare subwoofers that meet your criteria. I can understand caution when considering ID manufacturers that are generally not household names, but these companies have all endured the stink test. PSA is fairly new, but it has good pedigree and is putting out some interesting subs with an excited following.

Subs that are often recommended here are rarely bad choices. They just might not be popular, solve the problem, or fit your budget. The cool part is that you get to choose.

My bad, I was using the brand names as short cuts for specific subs previously discussed. Specifically, Rhythmik FV15HP (budget busting), PSA XV15, Outlaw LFM-1 EX, Hsu VTF-3 or 15, and SVS PB-2000. Pretty comprehensive shortlist, I know. smile.gif Context is big space, both movies and music, and somewhat constrained budget.

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post #63 of 74 Old 01-11-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I would go with the PSA XV-15 or XS-15. over the others mentioned. Also ignore any Shady J says.
I have no problem with you recommending whatever you want even though you haven't qualified the reasons. And if you want to proclaim that ShadyJ's comments should be ignored, then it would help your cause greatly if you could cogently provide somewhat of a technical rebuttal where he has misstated things or drawn some incorrect observations. Here, I'll help you,

"you should consider the PSA offerings provided you don't run them full out and instead run them around 6 dB below what they're capable of. The reason for this is because as they're pushed beyond that point, the frequency response changes and the low end starts roll off. Hence informattion that is present at the lower frequencies will no,longer be reproduce properly, to get back the missing SPL, you can buy one or more subs which will also havee the added benefit of smoothing out room responses. This though, takes work, a microphone, software and some flexibility in where the subs can be placed in your room. If this is all too much for you and it doesn't bother you that the FR has the potential to change buy whatever you like. Regardless of the brand, there are dedicated threads on AVS and elsewhere where you'll derive comfort and security from owners you have made the same choice."

Now, perhaps you can come up with your own reasons why PSA is a worthy option and why ShadyJ should be ignored.
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post #64 of 74 Old 01-11-2014, 04:44 PM
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Here is exchange since you all like defending this character took place the other day over at Audioholics with one of the members who happens to be a" mod" and Svs retailer in the PB & SB 2000 thread..

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/88835-svs-pb-2000-sb-2000-subwoofers-preview.html






Here is only part of the exchange..maybe you(chu) and basso can take the time look at his resume or track record and do some of your own fact checking...just saying. Yeah I know this is AVS science but this guy is a ......bag...IMO.

mike c

i think i am within my rights as a forum-goer (me being SVS related or not) to ask for the facts you based your ripping of SVS on.

if i went to every emotiva thread crapping on the brand with lines like "X brand's Y product beats that in power yada yada"
it would be fair for even the owner of emotiva to ask me how i came up with those lies.

you couldn't present facts. nuff said.

one need only check your posts to see you have a hard on for SVS.

you can check mine, if it's SVS related, it's generally mostly correcting your wrong info.





Quote Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Certainly you are within your rights to call out anything I say which is BS, but I haven't made any statements as absolute as you claim. If I have, show me where. Furthermore, since this forum isn't a USA only website, a conflict of interest still exists for you to moderate it.


i don't want to sift through your garbage.

again, i never moderated our "entanglements". you were spreading misinformation, i called BS. if what you said was true, i would have banned you in the past already.

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post #65 of 74 Old 01-11-2014, 06:29 PM
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I read that thread as it was going on, Billy and I found no specifics or links cited to substantiate the moderator's statements. What I did find though is that the moderator is also a distributor for SVS in the Phillipines and this is not disclosed in his signature. You may see it differently, but in my eyes that's a potential undisclosed conflict of interest. I expect that if a person is a representative foe a company or is in some way affiliated with them, decency and transparency should compel them to disclose that information. In that way a person can draw their own inferences when it comes to reading their posts.

I've attempted to summarize as best as I can what ShadyJ's position is above. I have no idea what the individual who asked for a comparison feels what the important criteria are in his buying decision. He himself may not fully know and as time passes and finances improve, they'll undergo some degree of evolution. IMO, what would be appropriate would be for a representative of PSA to come forth and address the points that have been raised..
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post #66 of 74 Old 01-11-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I read that thread as it was going on, Billy and I found no specifics or links cited to substantiate the moderator's statements. What I did find though is that the moderator is also a distributor for SVS in the Phillipines and this is not disclosed in his signature. You may see it differently, but in my eyes that's a potential undisclosed conflict of interest. I expect that if a person is a representative foe a company or is in some way affiliated with them, decency and transparency should compel them to disclose that information. In that way a person can draw their own inferences when it comes to reading their posts.

I've attempted to summarize as best as I can what ShadyJ's position is above. I have no idea what the individual who asked for a comparison feels what the important criteria are in his buying decision. He himself may not fully know and as time passes and finances improve, they'll undergo some degree of evolution. IMO, what would be appropriate would be for a representative of PSA to come forth and address the points that have been raised..


It was not a secret that Mike was affiliated with Svs and listed as one of their overseas distributor...Mike even alluded to that fact in response. My intention was not to drag another forum into this quagmire created by the same member both here and over at Audioholics. I have read many of his posts as others over there would attest too...I have even tried to locate some of ShadyJ posting history but why waste my time...but there must be some kind of legitimacy... if 2 different forums & their member find his tactics rather unsavory...especially when his beloved Hsu(and I know of some of the history between Tom and Hsu)] come into question...maybe ShadyJ is a shill...his moniker fits...anyways.
.

Btw...I do have a ton of respect for you and the work you've done in the past in helping others....thank you.

Re, Bill...smile.gif

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post #67 of 74 Old 01-12-2014, 03:46 AM
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Billy, I've been a member over at AH for a few years and that was news to me. For the person who happens to go there occasionally and asks an SVS question, he sure isn't going to know. All I'm saying is that the easy way to remove any question is to edit the profile and just say something like 'Distributor for SVS in the Phillipines'. At no point am I saying the guy this or that.

ShasyJ has brought up some interesting points here and elsewhere. Forgetting for a moment about PSA, one point or question if you will, is do drivers with high inductance exhibit significant changes in their FR as they're pushed to higher levels? If so, is it of the same magnitude as a low inductance driver? If it's similar then who cares? If it's significantly worse, then that's a good bit of information to keep in mind.

The other pint he's brought up elsewhere is that of measurements themselves and the inherent dangers of relying upon a single number. He referenced Butterworth's work over at S&V.a single number mind you. That's what manufacturers typically provide whether it's audio related or automotive or whatever. Variations in the number arise from two primary reasons.
1) the actual measurement itself. The more you can control the environment, the better your reproducibility. A rigorous adherence to technique improves reproducibility. Verification of calibration and regular adherence to a maintenance schedule ought to be a given. But even after all that, there is still a certain amount of uncertainty. That's why coroners can only give an estimate or range when a person dies. That's why scientists can only give an estimate as to the the age of an object using radioactive carbon dating techniques. Same with opinion poles which can have an uncertainty associated with them.
2) variations in the product itself. Two drivers made at different times in a production run are going to measure differently as are drivers from different runs. Call them lots if you will. Controlling these differences and identifying the reasons is part of statistical quality control. But in the end, you'll have drivers with somewhat different T/S parameters which in turn translate to variations in measured performance of the final product.

In the end what you wind up with, if you sample enough products, is an uncertainty associated with the reported measurement. For something like a 95% confidence level! You might find that 112 dB level ought to be written as 112 +/- 2 dB. If that's the case, then comparing two products with values off 112 and 109 can only lead you to conclude that the numbers are two close to call.

I hope you and others realize I've nothing personal against you, PSA, SVS or whomever. In general I'm not a big fan of the McDonald's defense, billions and billions served can't be wrong. I know it's not a great burger but I still knock one down from time to time. I like that saying people should not afraid of their government. Government should be afraid of the people. That's how I feel about companies too even the ones I happen to like. No one is above the law and no company should look to avoid direct questions by obfuscation.mthats the job of press secretaries!

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post #68 of 74 Old 01-12-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you can swing up to the VTF15h, that will be the best, but it is just a tad over $1k shipped. I would say if you want the best deep bass performance, go for the PB2000, if you want the best mid bass performance, go for the VTF3, if you want something that is just loud and digs deep go for the XV15, but take anything I say about Power Sound Audio with a grain of salt as I have a well-known dislike for them. The VTF3 can be switched to have comparable deep bass performance of the XV15 and PB2000 but at a cost of some output between 20 to 40 hz. To be honest, when its movie night and you have guests over and you want to crank the volume, they are probably hard to tell apart. You would probably have to be paying attention to tell them apart in music as well. Practically speaking, they all have a similar level of performance. What's nice about the XV15 and SVS sub is their longer warranty on the amps, you have to buy a matching extended warranty on the Hsu, although Hsu's subs are known to be pretty reliable. I like the VTF3 personally, I like to mess around with different settings and see how the sound changes, not something you can do with the other subs. Some people like that tweakability, others don't really care for that.

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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Here is exchange since you all like defending this character took place the other day over at Audioholics with one of the members who happens to be a" mod" and Svs retailer in the PB & SB 2000 thread..

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/88835-svs-pb-2000-sb-2000-subwoofers-preview.html

Here is only part of the exchange..maybe you(chu) and basso can take the time look at his resume or track record and do some of your own fact checking...just saying. Yeah I know this is AVS science but this guy is a ......bag...IMO.

mike c

i think i am within my rights as a forum-goer (me being SVS related or not) to ask for the facts you based your ripping of SVS on.

if i went to every emotiva thread crapping on the brand with lines like "X brand's Y product beats that in power yada yada"
it would be fair for even the owner of emotiva to ask me how i came up with those lies.

you couldn't present facts. nuff said.

one need only check your posts to see you have a hard on for SVS.

you can check mine, if it's SVS related, it's generally mostly correcting your wrong info.





Quote Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Certainly you are within your rights to call out anything I say which is BS, but I haven't made any statements as absolute as you claim. If I have, show me where. Furthermore, since this forum isn't a USA only website, a conflict of interest still exists for you to moderate it.


i don't want to sift through your garbage.

again, i never moderated our "entanglements". you were spreading misinformation, i called BS. if what you said was true, i would have banned you in the past already.

Hey Billy: Your personal feelings aside, shadyj has offered an opinion based on his experience and his interpretation of reading different data. He has even recommended products and pointed out their advantages from manufactures that you prefer. His critique of the XV-15, for instance, is not necessarily an endorsement of a Hsu product and I'm not sure why this keeps popping up. His infamous thread was a bit inflammatory, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just sassy humor. I get the feeling that he probably doesn't care either way.

I'm not sure why a few get so bent out of shape, as if they designed these subs or were a shareholder of PSA. Why wouldn't a consumer want to know all of the pros/cons of any potential purchase that involves a bunch of dollars. The discussion/debate should be based on something of substance otherwise it is just arguing. Personal preferences are unavoidable and hopefully readers will be able to take this into consideration when choosing a subwoofer in a thread like this.

BTW, I agree with Chu. The AH moderator should designate himself as an SVS distributor that receives income from the sale of its products and benefits from the ability to silence critics. This is clearly a conflict of interest.

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post #69 of 74 Old 01-12-2014, 02:27 PM
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Different forum different set of circumstances...if you or Chu feel full disclosure is warranted take that matter up with Gene...I'm sure Gene & Mike don't give a rats behind what AVSers think...Mike does a great job for that forum and many of those conflicts occurred before & to a lesser extent after Mod status was granted.

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post #70 of 74 Old 01-12-2014, 03:59 PM
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I haven't seen the $599 Rythmik LV12R mentioned much in the ~$700 sub threads, it only got on my radar after a very strong pitch was made for the more than twice as expensive FV15HP. Reviews suggest the LV12R fares very well against similarly priced competition, any thoughts on why it's not being mentioned more?

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post #71 of 74 Old 01-12-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Different forum different set of circumstances...if you or Chu feel full disclosure is warranted take that matter up with Gene...I'm sure Gene & Mike don't give a rats behind what AVSers think...Mike does a great job for that forum and many of those conflicts occurred before & to a lesser extent after Mod status was granted.

Im out....rolleyes.gif
You're right and I have. Here's a few funny stories.

1) We all know Axiom catches a fair amount of heat. We also know that Axiom no longer advertises on AH. There was a person posting on Axiom's forums saying not especially nice things. This caught the attention of Ian who was able to determine from the IP, which was logged, that the person was using a computer at AH. Gene looked into it and determined that his nephew, whom he'd hired to do some work, had some free time and was using it too zing Axiom. Gene apologized, Axiom deleted the offending threads, banned the screen name, and all was good.

2) another Axiom story. A fellow on another forum was singing the praises of Axiom and more or less disparaging other companies. It was determined that fellow was affiliated with Axiom in some way. Axiom took care of it.

3) I used to post on Stereophile's forums years ago. I kind of got into it with a well known cable company, specifically the owner. At some point, a person publicly replied to me how they used that companies products and they were all they said they were and more. Turns out that back then, everyone who posted had the IP they posted from logged for everyone to see. Wouldn't you know it, the IP for the owner and the person were identical!

4) looking at the Audiogon forums, you'll see obvious instances of people posting under multiple screen names looking to promote products and disparage others.

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post #72 of 74 Old 01-12-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

I haven't seen the $599 Rythmik LV12R mentioned much in the ~$700 sub threads, it only got on my radar after a very strong pitch was made for the more than twice as expensive FV15HP. Reviews suggest the LV12R fares very well against similarly priced competition, any thoughts on why it's not being mentioned more?

The LV12r won't have anything like the output or extension of an FV15HP. Not that its bad, for the price it would be very good. I wish Rythmik would send one to Josh Ricci so we can see the full scope of its performance.
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post #73 of 74 Old 01-12-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The LV12r won't have anything like the output or extension of an FV15HP. Not that its bad, for the price it would be very good. I wish Rythmik would send one to Josh Ricci so we can see the full scope of its performance.

Makes sense, it would be odd if it came close to the performance of a sub from the same company at more than twice the price. Based on a few reviews, it just seems like it should stack up well against similarly priced and even somewhat more expensive products from SVS, HSU, PSA, so I was surprised it didn't seem to be mentioned more.

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post #74 of 74 Old 01-12-2014, 06:50 PM
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Makes sense, it would be odd if it came close to the performance of a sub from the same company at more than twice the price. Based on a few reviews, it just seems like it should stack up well against similarly priced and even somewhat more expensive products from SVS, HSU, PSA, so I was surprised it didn't seem to be mentioned more.

The LV12R replaced the FV12 which was well-regarded and Rythmik's entry-level Direct Servo sub. You might find more info about it. I don't recall what carried over to the current model and what was different other than the location of the port.

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