Best performing sub under $700 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 116 Old 01-09-2014, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Im looking to get a better overall experience in movies and music. My supercube 4000 just isn't cutting it. I gave it 6 months but im not happy with the performance. Im currently running def tech 8040 towers, 8060 center, and bp surrounds off an older txh01 pioneer elite receiver. Was planning on using the pioneer as a pre amp and pick up a starter emotiva xpa amp. But i want to get rid of the supercube. Room is 23x18 with vaulted ceilings. I was going to pull the trigger on an outlaw LFM-1 EX but thought i would get some feed back this time. Enclosure size doesnt matter but the wife would kill me if i went over $700. Any feedback is much appreciated. Thanks

And I know i shouldn't have got the supercube in the first place. My mistake. Was trying to make the wife happy, but now its my turn.
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post #2 of 116 Old 01-09-2014, 11:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ender006 View Post

Enclosure size doesnt matter but the wife would kill me if i went over $700. Any feedback is much appreciated.

Life insurance? confused.gif

Other than that, it reads like you need a replacement AVR and a new subwoofer system....and maybe some speakers.

How much thought have you put into this upgrade and what are your expectations?

Because of the problems created, I "HATE" sub loaded speakers. My recommendation, sell the Def Techs and start over.
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post #3 of 116 Old 01-09-2014, 11:43 PM
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Enclosure size doesnt matter but the wife would kill me if i went over $700.

Hi ender.. Do you know how much $hipping is going to run you?

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post #4 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 01:00 AM
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If you can afford the Outlaw, you can afford the Hsu VTF3, which is like an improved version of the Outlaw. Get the VTF3 instead. Shipping will put either over $700 though. If you need to stick under $700 at all costs, go for the SVS PB12-NSD which is being clearenced out at $699 shipped.
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post #5 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Ive really considered getting rid of the def techs. Im not a fan if the subs in the towers either. I also want to get into separates but one step at a time. I figured if i use my current avr as a pre amp i could go ahead and get the power amp, then upgrade the pre amp after.

Im not too concerned with shipping cost. Maybe i should say $700 ballpark.

I'll take a look at the hsu today and see what i think. Thanks for the recommendation.
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post #6 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ender006 View Post

Ive really considered getting rid of the def techs. Im not a fan if the subs in the towers either. I also want to get into separates but one step at a time. I figured if i use my current avr as a pre amp i could go ahead and get the power amp, then upgrade the pre amp after.

Im not too concerned with shipping cost. Maybe i should say $700 ballpark.

I'll take a look at the hsu today and see what i think. Thanks for the recommendation.

Careful...the more you look and read these forums, the more that budget will creep up and up :)

 

I started with a budget of $300, that was immediately bumped to $500, pushed to $800, and now sits at "around" $1k!

 

It's so easy to play the "if you spend $500 you might as well consider the ones at $600", "well look at this one for $750" game.

 

It never ends lol.

 

Let us know what you end up with and how you like it

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post #7 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 08:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tripledub View Post

It's so easy to play the "if you spend $500 you might as well consider the ones at $600", "well look at this one for $750" game.

Your above is why I recommend not having a budget, find a subwoofer setup that meets your needs and via compromise, work backwards until in good conscience, the individual can't compromise anymore and then look at the price. It's less painful that way. tongue.gif
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post #8 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 09:00 AM
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^^^ That's a good theory. But you have to remember some ppl just don't have the cash or don't understand bass. I know ppl that think their 8" 100watt sub from an HTIB that costs $400 sounds great and they have no idea why anyone would spend $500 or more on just one sub. My family all think I'm nuts I have a total A/V HT setup that cost me about $4700 but new and not on sale its about $8500 worth of equipment. Most of them think even an $800 TV is way too much or even a $400 HTIB.

So I do recommend that ppl have in mind what they hope to accomplish and have a budget in mind but be open to what the outcome will be based on the budget.

Honestly I had a modified HTIB with 2 identical HTIB subs and 7 identical LCR speakers and even tho the subs sucked compared to what I have now. I did get some tactile response, it shook the house and you could feel the bass. A lot of ppl thought that setup was beyond resonable and sounded crazy good. So its all in the eye of the beholder.

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post #9 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 09:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

^^^ That's a good theory. But you have to remember some ppl just don't have the cash or don't understand bass.

That's why I include in my disclaimer: "I'm not the voice of reason."

Not trying to be flip, once going to the dark side, how can one be expected to give rational advice?



Hi, I'm going give you advice that guarantees your sound is going suck.

I have trouble with this point. I'd rather tell them to work backwards so they'll better understand why they need to dig so deep into their pockets.

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post #10 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 09:12 AM
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The outlaws frequently go on sale for $499 and $599 with free shipping. I think they're the best bang for the buck when on sale.
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post #11 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 09:16 AM
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@ Bee: LOL. I know what your saying. I often recommend ppl starting with a minimum of dual subs in the $500 to $800 each range. But for some that just scares them off. And for others that listen to us and get what is recommended some come back not satisfied. All because they have no idea what good bass is or sounds like. All they new was a junk HTIB sub that they think sounds better but infact its all just distortion and a huge hump in freq resp at 40 to 50 hz.

Actually there is another thread about a person totally not satisfied with an SVS PC12 NSD and the person came from a 12 JBL sub that wan't half the sub of the SVS. But the SVS has flat response and the JBL i think had a huge bump in freq resp at about 40 hz.

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post #12 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

The outlaws frequently go on sale for $499 and $599 with free shipping. I think they're the best bang for the buck when on sale.

I totally agree and that's why I have dual Plus's that I bought for $499 each shipped.

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post #13 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 09:20 AM
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I would get one of those SVS PB-12 NSD's for $699 delivered. 5 year warranty, trade up policy, excellent customer service...

If you want the PB-12 NSD I don't they will last very long.
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post #14 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 12:11 PM
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Hate to off topic, but why is the SB-12 NSD $150 more than the SB-1000? Face value seems to say 100 watts RMS is basically the only/main difference.


Is there something else save a buck & half a watt that I'm missing?

I think they were 700 bills, but still I'm missing something or 1/3 more power is worth more than I gave credit.
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post #15 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 01:52 PM
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The SB12-NSD has better build quality than the SB-1000. The driver is cast instead of stamped, the amplifier is 400 watts instead of 300, and the cabinet itself is better.

For $700, I'd probably go with the PB12-NSD being cleared out for $699 shipped. But the VTF-3 MK4 is an excellent choice as well.
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post #16 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 02:14 PM
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Thanks. Didn't realize that cast driver was that big a deal.

Why not the SB-2000 / $699.00? I know it's sealed though it slides in under seven bills & it's 500 W.

ETA: Granted the difference twixt the SB-2000 & SB12-NSD probably isn't as large as the SB-1000/SB12-NSD, but it's a new & improved extra 100 watts for fifty clams. 100 more compared to the SB12-NSD outet.
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post #17 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 02:25 PM
 
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First things first, give up on the idea of saving a buck and a half cause going where you want to go, is going cost.

...wink.gif

The sooner you give in on this point, the sooner you can start moving forward with your life again.

...tongue.gif
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post #18 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 03:09 PM
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Thanks. Didn't realize that cast driver was that big a deal.

It can be one of the tell tail signs of how it will perform in the lower freqs and smaller enclosure related to spl, but no not a given. There are plenty of beefy drivers that it’s parameters don’t support doing so. In this case the SB-2000 has a edge in extension and output though.

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post #19 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 03:15 PM
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post #20 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Ahhh finally off of work and able to catch up. First off thanks for the advice and feedback. You guys are awesome. I can get the Hsu shipped for $758 which isn't too bad. I also checked out the Svs and it looks like its between those 2 at the moment. What would avs do???
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post #21 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ender006 View Post

Ahhh finally off of work and able to catch up. First off thanks for the advice and feedback. You guys are awesome. I can get the Hsu shipped for $758 which isn't too bad. I also checked out the Svs and it looks like its between those 2 at the moment. What would avs do???

SVS SB2k or PB2K?
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post #22 of 116 Old 01-10-2014, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I was looking at the SVS PB-12 that shady and spyboy recommended.
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post #23 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 07:13 AM
 
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What would avs do???

Buy two JTR S2s. tongue.gif

In the real world, consider a PSA XV15.
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post #24 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Drooling over the jtr lol maybe if i sell my wife's pathfinder? How accurate is the comparison chart on the PSA site? For $100 more the PSA looks like a solid choice. I know i know my budget keeps going up but its sooo hard!
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post #25 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 12:01 PM
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PSA's charts are complete garbage and deliberately misleading. PSA's subs are nowhere near as good as they want you to believe. Here is a thread I made which debunks it. Read through it and you can see how their chart conceals problems with their sub's design.
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post #26 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ender006 View Post

Drooling over the jtr lol maybe if i sell my wife's pathfinder? How accurate is the comparison chart on the PSA site? For $100 more the PSA looks like a solid choice. I know i know my budget keeps going up but its sooo hard!
Had dual XV-15's and loved them. They replaced dual Outlaws that I had and it was no comparison. The best part is that they are hand made in the USA not like the other offerings made in China!
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post #27 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 01:48 PM
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Had dual XV-15's and loved them. They replaced dual Outlaws that I had and it was no comparison. The best part is that they are hand made in the USA not like the other offerings made in China!

Well there you have it, an honest opinion from someone whose owned both, and comments from shady who's never heard any PSA subs......lol

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post #28 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 01:53 PM
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There are only two elements to the comparison chart on our website.

1)Output data. We use the data complied per the industry standard CEA-2010 measurement protocol. This protocol has been developed based on a decade's worth of research in two extremely important areas. 1)what type of output testing will most closely mimic real world usage. 2)the audibility of harmonic distortion in subwoofer frequencies. If you see anyone suggesting the decade's worth of research is invalid, please ask them to reference the specific AES papers involved and then provide their own EVIDENCE. Hey, the earth is flat....maybe if i say it enough times someone might believe me?..smile.gif The *fact* is....the CEA burst method IS the measurement method that most closely mimics what the subwoofer will reproduce in the real world(music/film).

2)We average the data for the entire 20-63hz measurement spectrum (again, per the CEA-2010 measurement protocol). If anyone wants to focus on a single test frequency as being "most important" that is up to them. I personally feel the entire bandwidth should be weighted equally. After all, who can say 20hz is more important than 50hz? Or vice versa? Are there cool film effects at 20hz? Absolutely. Is music/film going to have more 50hz content than 20hz? By magnitudes.

*All* of our data is calculated using the CEA-2010 measurement + The minor scaling that the reviewer in question has confirmed is correct on one model---the XV15. (adding about 1dB to his XV15 measurements because the driver was actually about 7foot from the mic versus 6 foot for other brands). Is is all simple math, and math we have performed accurately. Is anyone feels that last decade of research (by the likes of Keele, Toole, etc) is invalid and they have a better solution to an industry standard----by all means----present the paper explaining such at your local AES meeting then post a copy here. I'm sure it would be quite interesting. Until then, keep screaming the earth is flat?


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post #29 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

There are only two elements to the comparison chart on our website.

1)Output data. We use the data complied per the industry standard CEA-2010 measurement protocol. This protocol has been developed based on a decade's worth of research in two extremely important areas. 1)what type of output testing will most closely mimic real world usage. 2)the audibility of harmonic distortion in subwoofer frequencies. If you see anyone suggesting the decade's worth of research is invalid, please ask them to reference the specific AES papers involved and then provide their own EVIDENCE. Hey, the earth is flat....maybe if i say it enough times someone might believe me?..smile.gif The *fact* is....the CEA burst method IS the measurement method that most closely mimics what the subwoofer will reproduce in the real world(music/film).

2)We average the data for the entire 20-63hz measurement spectrum (again, per the CEA-2010 measurement protocol). If anyone wants to focus on a single test frequency as being "most important" that is up to them. I personally feel the entire bandwidth should be weighted equally. After all, who can say 20hz is more important than 50hz? Or vice versa? Are there cool film effects at 20hz? Absolutely. Is music/film going to have more 50hz content than 20hz? By magnitudes.

*All* of our data is calculated using the CEA-2010 measurement + The minor scaling that the reviewer in question has confirmed is correct on one model---the XV15. (adding about 1dB to his XV15 measurements because the driver was actually about 7foot from the mic versus 6 foot for other brands). Is is all simple math, and math we have performed accurately. Is anyone feels that last decade of research (by the likes of Keele, Toole, etc) is invalid and they have a better solution to an industry standard----by all means----present the paper explaining such at your local AES meeting then post a copy here. I'm sure it would be quite interesting. Until then, keep screaming the earth is flat?


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Tom. It's been awhile since I purchased the XS30 and was on your website, so I thought I'd take a look at what all the hubbub was about. The only thing I see that raised an eyebrow was your "PSA Value Factor", which Shady pointed out. I tend to agree with him on this point. What I don't agree with is Shady's never ending stalking of PSA in every thread. While his personal grudge may be real or imagined, it is simply not healthy. There is a guy named Eduardo on Amazon that stalks any and all Bose products and lashes out. Again, not that I don't agree with some of Eduardo's points, it's his mindless stalking that is really troublesome.
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post #30 of 116 Old 01-11-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

There are only two elements to the comparison chart on our website.

1)Output data. We use the data complied per the industry standard CEA-2010 measurement protocol. This protocol has been developed based on a decade's worth of research in two extremely important areas. 1)what type of output testing will most closely mimic real world usage. 2)the audibility of harmonic distortion in subwoofer frequencies. If you see anyone suggesting the decade's worth of research is invalid, please ask them to reference the specific AES papers involved and then provide their own EVIDENCE. Hey, the earth is flat....maybe if i say it enough times someone might believe me?..smile.gif The *fact* is....the CEA burst method IS the measurement method that most closely mimics what the subwoofer will reproduce in the real world(music/film).

2)We average the data for the entire 20-63hz measurement spectrum (again, per the CEA-2010 measurement protocol). If anyone wants to focus on a single test frequency as being "most important" that is up to them. I personally feel the entire bandwidth should be weighted equally. After all, who can say 20hz is more important than 50hz? Or vice versa? Are there cool film effects at 20hz? Absolutely. Is music/film going to have more 50hz content than 20hz? By magnitudes.

*All* of our data is calculated using the CEA-2010 measurement + The minor scaling that the reviewer in question has confirmed is correct on one model---the XV15. (adding about 1dB to his XV15 measurements because the driver was actually about 7foot from the mic versus 6 foot for other brands). Is is all simple math, and math we have performed accurately. Is anyone feels that last decade of research (by the likes of Keele, Toole, etc) is invalid and they have a better solution to an industry standard----by all means----present the paper explaining such at your local AES meeting then post a copy here. I'm sure it would be quite interesting. Until then, keep screaming the earth is flat?


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Tom: I don't believe I have seen anyone dispute the CEA-2010 standard or its use in your charts.. The hot-button issues, that have raised a few eyebrows, are all in the infamous thread linked above. I do not think you have offered your expertise on the data posted by Luke or Bosso. It would be interesting to get your input.

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