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post #1 of 97 Old 01-12-2014, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright fellas, finally ready to upgrade. I opted for Panasonic's last hurrah of plasma televisions, so I purchased a ZT60, which I adore, So my budget is significantly less, and I'm really looking for a budget subwoofer that's a stepping stone toward upgrading later on. I can't tolerate my BIC-PL200 any longer!

So here's all the information I've gathered.

Hopefully I did this correctly. So I took my digital SPL meter, placed it over the MLP, at ear level, and selected C-weighting.

I then when into test tones, with the subwoofer at 0.0db on my receiver, and used the amount of gain that I prefer on the subwoofer itself.
When doing this, I got a reading of 83-89db, mostly sticking around 85-86db.

With Audyssey on, and Dynamic EQ off, I then played one of my favorite bass heavy songs, and it measured around 105db.
With Audyssey on, and Dynamic EQ off, I then played some scenes from Tron, and it most measured at around 110-111db.
(not sure if this is useful information, but with a-weighting watching Tron, it measured 85-88db)

Other important info:
1)The Main Listening Position is just about 8.5ft away from the sub.
2)Crossover is done by Audyssey at 120hz on LR, and 100hz on all other speakers.
3)Room is 14x10x8
4)Highest volume I ever listen to on my receiver is 0db, but it's typically -10 to -15db with music, and typically -5 to -12db for movies.
5)My sub does not sound good at those volumes.

So, I'm a fan of PSA, HSU, Rhythmik, and SVS.

I'm mostly attracted to SVS because of the 45 day in home risk-free trial, and the 1 year upgrade plan, as I plan on upgrading with-in a year after this. And that's a big deal to me, as I would not be able to upgrade further for awhile if I bought from the other brands without that 1 year upgrade, credit-towards new sub thing.
But in terms of quality, I like 'em all!

Budget goal is no more than $800. Lower is definitely welcomed. Really, I'm looking for a subwoofer that can output at these levels, AND sound good doing it.

SVS subs I'm looking at: PB-1000, PB-2000, SB-1000, SB-2000.

Last but not least, 70% music, 30% movies.
Can't really decide whether I need the higher output of ported, or whether I would enjoy the sealed roll-off better either.


Thanks! smile.gif

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post #2 of 97 Old 01-12-2014, 09:33 PM
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Since your room is small, I think you might be able to get away with a Rythmik LV12r or Hsu VTF2 for the SPLs you are after. If it were me, I would play it safe and go with a Hsu VTF3. It will give you the SPLs you want for sure, and it will allow you to trade some of that headroom for deep bass extension if you feel you can spare some headroom. It's a pretty large sub though, and might eat up more room than you would care to give up, so do a mockup. The SVS PB2000 is looking like a great sub as well.
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post #3 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Since your room is small, I think you might be able to get away with a Rythmik LV12r or Hsu VTF2 for the SPLs you are after. If it were me, I would play it safe and go with a Hsu VTF3. It will give you the SPLs you want for sure, and it will allow you to trade some of that headroom for deep bass extension if you feel you can spare some headroom. It's a pretty large sub though, and might eat up more room than you would care to give up, so do a mockup. The SVS PB2000 is looking like a great sub as well.

Man, I'm really loving those SPL's of the VTF3. And I hate to say it, but the VTF-15.. I can see it now, "it's only 80 bucks over the budget Dad.. for years of benefit! Right?" biggrin.gif
hmm.. decisions.. decisions.

Any thoughts on how you think a PB2000 would compare? I hear it has 30-40% more output than the PB12-NSD.
My plan was to get something like that. so that in a year from now, I could get an SB-13 Ultra with the upgrade plan SVS offers. (when I emailed SVS, they recommended the SB-13 Ultra as really the top choice for small rooms)

And any thoughts on Direct Servo technology Rythmik offers?
I didn't see SPL ratings on Data-bass.com or on Rythmik's website for the LV12r. Do you know how much it can handle?

Still hard to get over the Hsu VTF3 and VTF-15 though.. $659 and $879? Seems like a steal. cool.gif

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post #4 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 02:09 AM
 
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Just saying, your post doesn't define the needs of the title of your thread. confused.gif

Based on what you posted, and what I could glean from your comments, you've limited yourself via your budget. Just saying, you won't get what you want with your stated budget.

My recommendation, based on the specs of your post, and not the budget set forth in you post, you should be looking at a pair of PSA XS15, a pair of SVS SB1000s or a pair of Rythmik F12Gs.

And if choosing the choices listed above, you're going be limited for Home Theater use. That's just the nature of the beast.

In my opinion, without realizing it, everybody starts out wanting a $6,000.00 subwoofer system, and they want it for $600.00 and then go nuts trying to make it happen.

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post #5 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Man, I'm really loving those SPL's of the VTF3. And I hate to say it, but the VTF-15.. I can see it now, "it's only 80 bucks over the budget Dad.. for years of benefit! Right?" biggrin.gif
hmm.. decisions.. decisions.

Any thoughts on how you think a PB2000 would compare? I hear it has 30-40% more output than the PB12-NSD.
My plan was to get something like that. so that in a year from now, I could get an SB-13 Ultra with the upgrade plan SVS offers. (when I emailed SVS, they recommended the SB-13 Ultra as really the top choice for small rooms)

And any thoughts on Direct Servo technology Rythmik offers?
I didn't see SPL ratings on Data-bass.com or on Rythmik's website for the LV12r. Do you know how much it can handle?

Still hard to get over the Hsu VTF3 and VTF-15 though.. $659 and $879? Seems like a steal. cool.gif

The VTF15h is a large and heavy subwoofer, and is over $1k shipped. The VTF3 is $759 shipped. If you live near Anaheim CA you could save on shipping costs though.

I'm guessing the PB2000 is on the level of the VTF3.

I would say Rythmik's servodrive offers an advantage over conventional systems, it seems to have an extra layer of detail in certain sounds from my listening. As for the output level of the LV12r, I would guess it is on the level of a VTF2.
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post #6 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 12:01 PM
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How about building one ? If it is possible, not a bad idea, get an 18" Dayton with a flat pack and add a Inuke with dsp....should run about $800 delivered or add a bash amp...

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post #7 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


In my opinion, without realizing it, everybody starts out wanting a $6,000.00 subwoofer system, and they want it for $600.00 and then go nuts trying to make it happen.

-

That's how I ended up building sub-woofers. I couldn't afford what I wanted so I had to build them. I couldn't really afford what I built either but now I can do structural damage to small dwellings if I so desire. biggrin.gif

I spent less on all the tools and materials for two DIY subs than I would have on a single finished sub from a manufacturer. That includes building one of the subs twice because I screwed it up because I was a complete amateur so include the cost of wasted materials. The higher you are aiming for performance the easier it is to do this. Don't expect to build something to replicate a $200 sub for less than $200 if you don't already own all the tools and materials. If you are looking at $2000+ subs you can destroy that price with a home-built.


My subs play all the way down to 0 Hz!!! It's so low you can't hear or feel anything.

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post #8 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just saying, your post doesn't define the needs of the title of your thread. confused.gif

Based on what you posted, and what I could glean from your comments, you've limited yourself via your budget. Just saying, you won't get what you want with your stated budget.

My recommendation, based on the specs of your post, and not the budget set forth in you post, you should be looking at a pair of PSA XS15, a pair of SVS SB1000s or a pair of Rythmik F12Gs.

And if choosing the choices listed above, you're going be limited for Home Theater use. That's just the nature of the beast.

In my opinion, without realizing it, everybody starts out wanting a $6,000.00 subwoofer system, and they want it for $600.00 and then go nuts trying to make it happen.

-

Are you sure? I mean I could very well be reading it wrong, but the output of the VTF-15 on Data-bass.com is 93db at 12.5hz, 100.6db at 16hz, and 104.1db at 20hz, and 106..9db at 25hz, then well on up to at least 110db for all the bass I'd be using with my speakers.
Now they measure there's at 2m in an open space right? Well, going by Audioholics, you increase sub output by 18db by corning placing it. And then subtract 6-7db for the 2 meters or so that I'm sitting at, and you have around a 11-12db extra.
So with all that factored, I'd be getting around 105db at 12.5hz, 112db at 16hz, 116db at 20hz.

Am I figuring that correctly? 'Cause that seems like plenty!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The VTF15h is a large and heavy subwoofer, and is over $1k shipped. The VTF3 is $759 shipped. If you live near Anaheim CA you could save on shipping costs though.

I'm guessing the PB2000 is on the level of the VTF3.

I would say Rythmik's servodrive offers an advantage over conventional systems, it seems to have an extra layer of detail in certain sounds from my listening. As for the output level of the LV12r, I would guess it is on the level of a VTF2.

Ahh, I see I see. Yes, didn't realize that didn't include shipping. So the VTF3 would likely be my limit at $759.
VTF2 output isn't too shabby. I am interested in the servodrive.

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Originally Posted by Helmutz88 View Post

How about building one ? If it is possible, not a bad idea, get an 18" Dayton with a flat pack and add a Inuke with dsp....should run about $800 delivered or add a bash amp...

This is true, indeed. I forgot about the DIY route. Which specific Dayton 18" driver? And which Inuke or bash amp??

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post #9 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 12:56 PM
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going by Audioholics, you increase sub output by 18db by corning placing it.
Corner placement gets 12dB compared to outdoors. Figure that's offset by your listening distance and the base half-space figures are pretty accurate in-room. But they don't take into account room response modes and boundary reflections, which can cause response dips 12dB deep. Those are best addressed by using multiple subs. Two subs give 6dB more than one, so figuring that into your calculations you may find two less expensive subs that give you what you want fro SPL along with better overall response.

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post #10 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Corner placement gets 12dB compared to outdoors. Figure that's offset by your listening distance and the base half-space figures are pretty accurate in-room. But they don't take into account room response modes and boundary reflections, which can cause response dips 12dB deep. Those are best addressed by using multiple subs. Two subs give 6dB more than one, so figuring that into your calculations you may find two less expensive subs that give you what you want fro SPL along with better overall response.

Yep, I see your logic with 2 less expensive subs. I think I would prefer to add another sub down the line. That seem like a good idea to you?

Ahhh, yes you're right, I forgot about the groundplane rolleyes.gif so it is 12db. biggrin.gif So, 6db seems about right as you said.

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post #11 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 02:13 PM
 
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Am I figuring that correctly? 'Cause that seems like plenty!

If you've not heard better, yes it seems like plenty. I just finished listening to the crash scene of FOTP and during the barrel roll, at +/- 0dB, hit 110.2dB. The chair, room, floor, everything was rumbling and you felt like you were in the plane. The point, better does make a difference and where do you want to be; in the plane or in your seat? confused.gif

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post #12 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If you've not heard better, yes it seems like plenty. I just finished listening to the crash scene of FOTP and during the barrel roll, at +/- 0dB, hit 110.2dB. The chair, room, floor, everything was rumbling and you felt like you were in the plane. The point, better does make a difference and where do you want to be; in the plane or in your seat? confused.gif

-

Yeah, I totally hear ya! And I completely agree. Next year, I'd love to get better, but I'm looking for something to replace my super-cheap PL-200 just for the time being.
I have no problem being attracted to being "in the movie". Who doesn't love subs that can go 125db? I know I do!

Really, if I can't achieve what I'm looking for at the SPL's I desire, I still want to replace my crummy PL-200 with whatever I can get for </= $800.
Next year though, that should be a different story. biggrin.gif

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post #13 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 03:18 PM
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I agree with beeman's thoughts on subs for your room. Your room is a nice manageable size for bass. I would consider going with sealed subs especially if you are planning to add a 2nd down the road. I would say your thoughts on SVS are good and I would go with the SVS SB-1000 or SB 2000 and just plan on adding a 2nd next year (or whenever). I would also consider the PSA XS15 as a possibility. 

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post #14 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 04:26 PM
 
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Really, if I can't achieve what I'm looking for at the SPL's I desire, I still want to replace my crummy PL-200 with whatever I can get for </= $800.
Next year though, that should be a different story. biggrin.gif

Based on your above, what do you think about a single PSA XV15 or a pair of SVS PB1000s?
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post #15 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree with beeman's thoughts on subs for your room. Your room is a nice manageable size for bass. I would consider going with sealed subs especially if you are planning to add a 2nd down the road. I would say your thoughts on SVS are good and I would go with the SVS SB-1000 or SB 2000 and just plan on adding a 2nd next year (or whenever). I would also consider the PSA XS15 as a possibility. 
I'm totally down with that. I think that's a good idea. Probably a SB-2000, that way I could have a little more output for the mean time and for when I would add another.
So you're leaning towards sealed? Why is that?


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Based on your above, what do you think about a single PSA XV15 or a pair of SVS PB1000s?

The XV15 looks to be very nice. I'm very interested in that. Yeah I love what I hear about PSA. And Tom was excellent with customer service when I emailed him. I think they have some serious quality in their stuff.
I would only lean towards SVS because of the 45 day free shipping back if I'm not pleased and the 1 year upgrade plan. So it is hard for me to part with SVS.. because I feel it's risk-free.. if a sub doesn't output at the levels I want it to, ship it back, no charge! Because I haven't had any experience with quality subs, I literally have no idea what I'll like.
So you're leaning towards ported? Why is that?

Basically, if a sub from PSA, Hsu, Rythmik, will be audibly better, or better bang for your buck, then I'm interested.
If they'll be about the same, or very similar, I prefer SVS because of the "SVS Bill of Rights". biggrin.gif

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post #16 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 05:01 PM
 
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So you're leaning towards ported? Why is that?

XV15, one word: "OUTPUT!"

Quote:
Basically, if a sub from PSA, Hsu, Rythmik, will be audibly better, or better bang for your buck, then I'm interested.
If they'll be about the same, or very similar, I prefer SVS because of the "SVS Bill of Rights". biggrin.gif

Then two PB1000s.

This is why I post that choosing a subwoofer is an emotionally based issue. There is no best budget, there's only going for what you want. Everything is half-stepped and is an exercise of frustration because each half-step is well worth purchasing but to get where one really wants to go, the individual has to spend three to five time more then they want.

I likened the subwoofer chase to Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First." In the case of budget minded subwoofers, everything ends back at first base and then the search begins anew. The only way to break the cycle of frustration is to hit the hip and go the "Full Monte."

Here's the bottom line, a center channel upgrade, an AVR upgrade and a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs, got me 110.2dB during the crash scene barrel roll in FOTP, with the average SPL rocking in the 100dB range. Was it worth it? Hell yes! Pretty much, most people want reference level output but want to do so for the price of a HTiB from Costco and it just isn't going happen......"First Base!"

...tongue.gif...biggrin.gif

If the budget isn't there, I understand as I'm not trying to be a "Richard Cranium." I'm just saying, compromises will have to be made to meet the budget and there's no way around this point....."First Base!"
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post #17 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 05:27 PM
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http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-18-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-package--300-7094 ...and maybe an Inuke 3000...about $760 US plus what ever else...Stereo Integrity has nice 18's for a bit under $300 as well. More ideas the better when spending smile.gif....i'm still in the saving process for later...

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post #18 of 97 Old 01-13-2014, 06:16 PM
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I'm totally down with that. I think that's a good idea. Probably a SB-2000, that way I could have a little more output for the mean time and for when I would add another.
So you're leaning towards sealed? Why is that?
 

Personally I own a XV15 and am very very happy with it but my room is larger than yours. The reason I suggested sealed is because your room is small enough so you should be able to get cabin gain working for you (that's where the room helps boost the output of the lower frequencies which is where a sealed sub usually struggles when compared to a ported sub). But if you want output than a ported sub would work great and the XV15 has it. 

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post #19 of 97 Old 01-14-2014, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Ordered a PB-1000! Should be here Friday! Figured it would be wise to at least test it out to have an idea, and see whether it's what I'm looking for.

I appreciate all your input though, and am still in the process really. So I'll keep you guys posted for when it arrives, and the first listen!

If all goes well, and I like what I hear, I'll add a second one in the next coming months based on your recommendations for duals. cool.gif

Any tips or things I should know about bass or anything that I might not know for when I get it? smile.gif

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post #20 of 97 Old 01-15-2014, 08:21 AM
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Congrats on your new purchase Player! sounds like you have a plan..

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post #21 of 97 Old 01-16-2014, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Alright fellas, finally ready to upgrade. I opted for Panasonic's last hurrah of plasma televisions, so I purchased a ZT60, which I adore, So my budget is significantly less, and I'm really looking for a budget subwoofer that's a stepping stone toward upgrading later on. I can't tolerate my BIC-PL200 any longer!

So here's all the information I've gathered.

Hopefully I did this correctly. So I took my digital SPL meter, placed it over the MLP, at ear level, and selected C-weighting.

I then when into test tones, with the subwoofer at 0.0db on my receiver, and used the amount of gain that I prefer on the subwoofer itself.
When doing this, I got a reading of 83-89db, mostly sticking around 85-86db.

With Audyssey on, and Dynamic EQ off, I then played one of my favorite bass heavy songs, and it measured around 105db.
With Audyssey on, and Dynamic EQ off, I then played some scenes from Tron, and it most measured at around 110-111db.
(not sure if this is useful information, but with a-weighting watching Tron, it measured 85-88db)

Other important info:
1)The Main Listening Position is just about 8.5ft away from the sub.
2)Crossover is done by Audyssey at 120hz on LR, and 100hz on all other speakers.
3)Room is 14x10x8
4)Highest volume I ever listen to on my receiver is 0db, but it's typically -10 to -15db with music, and typically -5 to -12db for movies.
5)My sub does not sound good at those volumes.

So, I'm a fan of PSA, HSU, Rhythmik, and SVS.

I'm mostly attracted to SVS because of the 45 day in home risk-free trial, and the 1 year upgrade plan, as I plan on upgrading with-in a year after this. And that's a big deal to me, as I would not be able to upgrade further for awhile if I bought from the other brands without that 1 year upgrade, credit-towards new sub thing.
But in terms of quality, I like 'em all!

Budget goal is no more than $800. Lower is definitely welcomed. Really, I'm looking for a subwoofer that can output at these levels, AND sound good doing it.

SVS subs I'm looking at: PB-1000, PB-2000, SB-1000, SB-2000.

Last but not least, 70% music, 30% movies.
Can't really decide whether I need the higher output of ported, or whether I would enjoy the sealed roll-off better either.


Thanks! smile.gif
Wow...you must be running smallish mains and surrounds for crossovers so high. In 1100 cu. ft, the vented PL200 should hit pretty well down to about 20Hz. I think part of your problem might be related to having your subwoofer do too much. I would even venture to say that at 120/100Hz, some localization issues might also come into play. I believe that it is definitely affecting the transparency of the overall system. It might be the mains and surrounds that need REAL upgrades rather than the subwoofer. Just a thought from outside the box.

That said, there are better choices than the PL-200 if it is merely a matter of insufficient SPL. I would do the SVS 45 day trial, just to see how the sub integrates with the mains, though I will say that a sub will sound better as the crossover frequency is lowered, especially for music, which you cite as your dominant listening proclivities. The SB-13 Ultra blows the budget and if SPL is your chief concern, then I would look toward the lower end vented models like you've mentioned.

I'm a staunch "sealed" aficionado, but the SB-2000 has a 12" driver with an Sd of probably less than 500 cm^2, so that leaves only vented as an option from SVS under your budget constraints. The PL200 is not exactly a slouch as a vented 12" subwoofer...an SB-2000 would offer better detail but probably slightly reduced output. Don't even think about the SB-1000, its rolloff after 24Hz is REALLY bad (ground plane FR) and might even be worse than the PL200 below 22Hz. Even a room as small as yours won't be able to prop it up.

I would say go with the PB-2000 because the 1000 is too close for comfort with the PL200 and has only a 10" driver, albeit in an oversize cabinet. You don't want to spend big cash and realize afterwards that it is a lateral move at best. An $800 investment should reap some good returns. I still say that you should really take a hard look at your mains and surrounds. There is only so much a subwoofer can correct.

The problem with sealed vs. vented from dealers is the leverage that vented can offer you for the price...$800 can deliver you potent theatrics, but for sealed, you must pay more because the driver has to be really robust enough to get you both extension (or at least reasonable extension) and output. Hence the huge jump in price from the SB-2000 to the SB-13 Ultra, notwithstanding the considerably smooth piano-black finish.

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

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Originally Posted by kramskoi View Post

Wow...you must be running smallish mains and surrounds for crossovers so high. In 1100 cu. ft, the vented PL200 should hit pretty well down to about 20Hz. I think part of your problem might be related to having your subwoofer do too much. I would even venture to say that at 120/100Hz, some localization issues might also come into play. I believe that it is definitely affecting the transparency of the overall system. It might be the mains and surrounds that need REAL upgrades rather than the subwoofer. Just a thought from outside the box.

That said, there are better choices than the PL-200 if it is merely a matter of insufficient SPL. I would do the SVS 45 day trial, just to see how the sub integrates with the mains, though I will say that a sub will sound better as the crossover frequency is lowered, especially for music, which you cite as your dominant listening proclivities. The SB-13 Ultra blows the budget and if SPL is your chief concern, then I would look toward the lower end vented models like you've mentioned.

I'm a staunch "sealed" aficionado, but the SB-2000 has a 12" driver with an Sd of probably less than 500 cm^2, so that leaves only vented as an option from SVS under your budget constraints. The PL200 is not exactly a slouch as a vented 12" subwoofer...an SB-2000 would offer better detail but probably slightly reduced output. Don't even think about the SB-1000, its rolloff after 24Hz is REALLY bad (ground plane FR) and might even be worse than the PL200 below 22Hz. Even a room as small as yours won't be able to prop it up.

I would say go with the PB-2000 because the 1000 is too close for comfort with the PL200 and has only a 10" driver, albeit in an oversize cabinet. You don't want to spend big cash and realize afterwards that it is a lateral move at best. An $800 investment should reap some good returns. I still say that you should really take a hard look at your mains and surrounds. There is only so much a subwoofer can correct.

The problem with sealed vs. vented from dealers is the leverage that vented can offer you for the price...$800 can deliver you potent theatrics, but for sealed, you must pay more because the driver has to be really robust enough to get you both extension (or at least reasonable extension) and output. Hence the huge jump in price from the SB-2000 to the SB-13 Ultra, notwithstanding the considerably smooth piano-black finish.

Well, my speakers are Atlantic Technology 2200 speakers. They're not by any means large but even though not many people know about them, they are pretty well reviewed and regarded by many for HT especially! But I can't say I know enough to say whether crossover at 100-120hz is a problem for sub localization. Although regardless, I will say that the BIC PL-200 is not really in the same league of quality as my speakers. It's a true budget sub, it has significant peaks at 40-50hz, and to my listening hears, it doesn't sound good below 30hz at all.
Anyway, the PB1000 gets here tomorrow, and if it's more of a lateral move, I'll for sure send it back and get the PB-2000.

My next upgrade will be my speakers most likely. Probably Ascend Sierra Towers and Horizon center both with RAAL tweeters.
That, or get an Audyssey XT32 receiver, as many say XT32 is substantially better than XT.

Pioneer Elite SC-25/Marantz SR6007
Atlantic Technology 2200 7 channel setup
Reaction Audio PS215X (booya!)
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Well, my speakers are Atlantic Technology 2200 speakers. They're not by any means large but even though not many people know about them, they are pretty well reviewed and regarded by many for HT especially! But I can't say I know enough to say whether crossover at 100-120hz is a problem for sub localization. Although regardless, I will say that the BIC PL-200 is not really in the same league of quality as my speakers. It's a true budget sub, it has significant peaks at 40-50hz, and to my listening hears, it doesn't sound good below 30hz at all.
Anyway, the PB1000 gets here tomorrow, and if it's more of a lateral move, I'll for sure send it back and get the PB-2000.

My next upgrade will be my speakers most likely. Probably Ascend Sierra Towers and Horizon center both with RAAL tweeters.
That, or get an Audyssey XT32 receiver, as many say XT32 is substantially better than XT.
I pretty much jumped the shark on the PL200...after looking over the Data-Bass archives, your observations about its performance below 30Hz only confirm the nature of the distortion charts done by Ricci. Even at the 100dB sweep, distortion is nearly 10% @ 30Hz, so it won't be pushed hard without protest. Normally you would not see such high distortion at 30Hz in a vented 12" subwoofer. By comparison, the PB-13 Ultra is a pristine 2.9% at 18 and 30 Hz in the 15 Hz tune, and that is 5 dB higher on the sweep (105 dB) than the PL200. The PB-1000 will surely play much cleaner. Its output will be reduced from the PB-2000 (with just a 10" driver) but considering the PL200, the difference should be evident from the word go. I still say that the PB-2000 is the one for you my friend.

Now Mark Smith of "Secrets" gave the 2200's good reviews, so I don't mean to impugn the "quality" of the Atlantic 2200 series but "extension" is the real problem. I see the 2200eLR has 2 - 4.5" drivers and are rated from 90 Hz. The surround 2200eSR is rated the same and the center channel as well...all 4.5" drivers. Depending on the phase relationship between the sub and the mains through the crossover point, it could surely be one of a few reasons that auto-equalization is not seeing adequate foundation from 90 - 120Hz. Another thing is the 90dB sensitivity rating of the driver pairs. I would definitely look into your aforementioned upgrade ideas for the peripheral drivers. Be sure to update the thread with how the PB-1000 works out!

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

Klipsch RB-35's main

Klipsch RB-35's surround

Acoustech HT-65 center

Cerwin-Vega CV-2800

 

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B&C 21SW152-4  [21" critical-Q]

 

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By comparison, the PB-13 Ultra is a pristine 2.9% at 18 and 30 Hz in the 15 Hz tune, and that is 5 dB higher on the sweep (105 dB) than the PL200.

I have to be argumentative on this point as in my opinion, comparing the PL200 to the Ultra is not being intellectually honest. Why? These are two totally different price points, serving totally different buyers, with two, totally different classes of subwoofers. confused.gif

(I am not a fanboy of the Ultra nor do I have complaints regarding the PL200)

Maybe you can help me understand by explaining why you chose this type of disparity to highlight a PB1000/PB2000?

(i don't understand)
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I pretty much jumped the shark on the PL200...after looking over the Data-Bass archives, your observations about its performance below 30Hz only confirm the nature of the distortion charts done by Ricci. Even at the 100dB sweep, distortion is nearly 10% @ 30Hz, so it won't be pushed hard without protest. Normally you would not see such high distortion at 30Hz in a vented 12" subwoofer. By comparison, the PB-13 Ultra is a pristine 2.9% at 18 and 30 Hz in the 15 Hz tune, and that is 5 dB higher on the sweep (105 dB) than the PL200. The PB-1000 will surely play much cleaner. Its output will be reduced from the PB-2000 (with just a 10" driver) but considering the PL200, the difference should be evident from the word go. I still say that the PB-2000 is the one for you my friend.

Now Mark Smith of "Secrets" gave the 2200's good reviews, so I don't mean to impugn the "quality" of the Atlantic 2200 series but "extension" is the real problem. I see the 2200eLR has 2 - 4.5" drivers and are rated from 90 Hz. The surround 2200eSR is rated the same and the center channel as well...all 4.5" drivers. Depending on the phase relationship between the sub and the mains through the crossover point, it could surely be one of a few reasons that auto-equalization is not seeing adequate foundation from 90 - 120Hz. Another thing is the 90dB sensitivity rating of the driver pairs. I would definitely look into your aforementioned upgrade ideas for the peripheral drivers. Be sure to update the thread with how the PB-1000 works out!

Some lagniappe and light reading:
http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=135
http://kenrockwell.com/audio/stereo-subwoofers.htm

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

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Klipsch RB-35's surround

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B&C 21SW152-4  [21" critical-Q]

 

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I appreciate the additional links, but the additional links do not help me understand your thinking on your comment.
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I have to be argumentative on this point as in my opinion, comparing the PL200 to the Ultra is not being intellectually honest. Why? These are two totally different price points, serving totally different buyers, with two, totally different classes of subwoofers. confused.gif

(I am not a fanboy of the Ultra nor do I have complaints regarding the PL200)

Maybe you can help me understand by explaining why you chose this type of disparity to highlight a PB1000/PB2000?

(i don't understand)
Oh man, I don't understand your direction my friend. The OP can't do a $2,000 subwoofer at this time and I opined that the PB-2000 would be the best choice considering. I can use the PB-2000 distortion graph to make an equally cogent enunciation. The bottom line is that all three will play with lower distortion than the PL200. As I noted previously, I was premature on the weakness of the PL200. The comparison with the Ultra was only to clarify to the OP how well-designed 12" vented subs will typically behave from 20 - 30Hz. What he hears below 30Hz can be confirmed by just perusing the graphs. I will warn you that I don't do argumentative dialogue well or with much duration! Life's too short for that business.

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

Klipsch RB-35's main

Klipsch RB-35's surround

Acoustech HT-65 center

Cerwin-Vega CV-2800

 

Subwoofer

B&C 21SW152-4  [21" critical-Q]

 

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post #28 of 97 Old 01-17-2014, 05:24 AM
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I appreciate the additional links, but the additional links do not help me understand your thinking on your comment.
The links were not meant for you...only the OP.

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

Klipsch RB-35's main

Klipsch RB-35's surround

Acoustech HT-65 center

Cerwin-Vega CV-2800

 

Subwoofer

B&C 21SW152-4  [21" critical-Q]

 

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post #29 of 97 Old 01-17-2014, 05:27 AM
 
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I will warn you that I don't do argumentative dialogue well or with much duration! Life's too short for that business.

No warning necessary as neither do I. And yes, I agree on the principle regarding shortness of life. I tried to make this clear in the softness and upfront nature of my comments as I still don't understand but do appreciate your efforts at enlightening me.

Quote:
The links were not meant for you...only the OP.

Thank-you for this clarification.

-
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No warning necessary as neither do I. And yes, I agree on the principle regarding shortness of life. I tried to make this clear in the softness and upfront nature of my comments as I still don't understand but do appreciate your efforts at enlightening me.
Thank-you for this clarification.

-
Okay...our "tango" is all wrong then! I posted the Ultra distortion example because their is no distortion data on the new PB-2000 on Data-Bass, only the 12-ISD driver. The sweeps can be confusing because they don't always start at a set level...sometimes it is 100, or 105, even 110 dB for the higher end driver systems. It is my fault on the PL200, as I didn't do my due diligence. I assumed that given the specs (22Hz), it "should" look better than it does on the graphs, but it starts coming apart much higher than that (30 Hz). Actually from 40 Hz it is rising at a good clip. Clearly some clever advertising. I am not particularly enamored with vented subs (despite SteveCallas) but I won't put forth a biased opinion just because I am partial to sealed.

However, you are correct, it is an apple to orange comparison, but I still say that the PB-2000 might be best. We all know how the bass virus works. It sucks you in ... you grow disenchanted and the only cure is more bass. I think the OP should audition both the 1000 and 2000 before making the decision. The wonderful thing about SVS is their upgrade policy. Top notch!
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"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

Klipsch RB-35's main

Klipsch RB-35's surround

Acoustech HT-65 center

Cerwin-Vega CV-2800

 

Subwoofer

B&C 21SW152-4  [21" critical-Q]

 

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