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post #31 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 10:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

At least you didn't point out my incorrect use of "Your" smile.gif

I leave that up to the more skilled among us....."The Grammar" cops. The web just wouldn't be the same without them to save us from ourselves. tongue.gif
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post #32 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post


At least you didn't point out my incorrect use of "Your" smile.gif

Hey, compared to some of the infractions committed against the language arts in these forums your use of the word "your" instead of "you're" is minor. 

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post #33 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 10:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

Hey, compared to some of the infractions committed against the language arts in these forums your use of the word "your" instead of "you're" is minor.

We all get to banging away on the keyboard and who knows what word we're going decide to go dyslexic on. English has to be the most messed up language to comprehend and use for the purpose of written communication due to the many different ways a single enunciated word can be used in multiple ways, not to mention how simply changing the vocal inflection can totally change how the comment is expected to be received.

"minor" lesser in importance

"miner" profession

"minor" music

"minor" secondary education degree/pursuit

"minor" under age

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post #34 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


We all get to banging away on the keyboard and who knows what word we're going decide to go dyslexic on. English has to be the most messed up language to comprehend and use for the purpose of written communication due to the many different ways a single enunciated word can be used in multiple ways, not to mention how simply changing the vocal inflection can totally change how the comment is expected to be received.

That is very true.  

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post #35 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree with measuring for problems; however, I was going under the assumptions that 1) My room size requires a higher SPL sub than the F12 and 2) two subs are better than one. In other words, in my situation room size and smooth response dictate two better subs REGARDLESS of how my current sub measures. I'm happy to be convinced to not spend money though smile.gif

Here is a measurement of the sub in its current position with Audyssey on. Both unsmoothed and 1/12th smoothing are shown. I'm not convinced my calibration file is set-up correctly, since to my ears I don't think I was anywhere near 110dB (AVR was set around -10 for these measurements). This was my first try with REW, so I'm hoping I did this right.




In my novice interpretation, the (uncalibrated?) output shows +/- 3dB at 110dB up until the crossover point (80Hz), except for the dip at 50Hz, which is -6dB down from 110dB. Also, I'm losing output below 20Hz.

So, will that -6dB dip at 50Hz have a big impact along with the weaker output below 20Hz? According to Rythmik, I should be +/- 3dB to 14Hz.
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post #36 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 05:15 PM
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Those charts look pretty good down to 20 Hz. Here are a few setting changes to try on your F12:
- Turn the Rumble Filter off if it's on.
- Set the Extension Filter FREQ switch to 14 Hz if it's not already there.
- Measure the sub with each Damping setting to see which provides the best response.
- If the amp has PEQ you can experiment with that to further flatten the response.

The dip at 50 Hz is pretty narrow so it shouldn't have a big impact on the sound. Once the sub's response is optimized, take a full range measurement: 16 Hz to 20 KHz. (1/6th smoothing is fine for this step.) If the sub's level is flat relative to frequencies above the crossover, try dialing in a few dB of additional gain using your AVR's Speaker Setup -> Channel Level -> Subwoofer menu.

Crank up some music that has a solid low end. How does it sound? You can readjust the sub channel gain as desired until you get the balance you're looking for. If you're still not happy with the sound after you've tweaked the sub & AVR settings, what don't you like?
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post #37 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobio View Post

I agree with measuring for problems; however, I was going under the assumptions that 1) My room size requires a higher SPL sub than the F12 and 2) two subs are better than one. In other words, in my situation room size and smooth response dictate two better subs REGARDLESS of how my current sub measures. I'm happy to be convinced to not spend money though smile.gif

Here is a measurement of the sub in its current position with Audyssey on. Both unsmoothed and 1/12th smoothing are shown. I'm not convinced my calibration file is set-up correctly, since to my ears I don't think I was anywhere near 110dB (AVR was set around -10 for these measurements). This was my first try with REW, so I'm hoping I did this right.




In my novice interpretation, the (uncalibrated?) output shows +/- 3dB at 110dB up until the crossover point (80Hz), except for the dip at 50Hz, which is -6dB down from 110dB. Also, I'm losing output below 20Hz.

So, will that -6dB dip at 50Hz have a big impact along with the weaker output below 20Hz? According to Rythmik, I should be +/- 3dB to 14Hz.
What mic do you use to measure? Not all mic can measure below 20hz. It requires a calibration file to measure down to 5.
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post #38 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

What mic do you use to measure? Not all mic can measure below 20hz. It requires a calibration file to measure down to 5.

A umik-1 calibrated at Cross Spectrum Labs. It should measure down to 5Hz.
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post #39 of 49 Old 01-15-2014, 08:24 PM
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^^ yes
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post #40 of 49 Old 01-16-2014, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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So, based on my graphs, if I can get the output up below 20Hz AND I'm not bottoming out the sub at my current listening levels then is there no point in getting another (better) sub(s)? One thing I haven't done yet is to simply crank up the sub and see if it bottoms out at the level where I can start to feel the bass.

And if I can't get the levels up below 20Hz, will getting two ported subs then help with the tactile feel of the bass that I want as well as potentially fix the dip at 50Hz for an overall smoother response?

I'm trying to get a sense of what my measurements and current listening levels (i.e. sub's output) mean in regards to improving the bass through new subs.

Thanks again for everyone's input.
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post #41 of 49 Old 01-16-2014, 05:05 PM
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Audyssey's goal is to provide a flat response. Flat sounds a bit lame to my ear so I always perform a post-Audyssey sub gain tweak to boost the low end. For my taste that means running my subs about 7-8 dB hot. Since your original complaint was that you wanted "more punch than I'm getting now", optimizing the settings in your F12 & raising the sub gain in your AVR can accomplish that. Once that's done, measure & listen. If you're still not satisfied with the sound (inadequate max SPL, inadequate low end extension, distortion is too high), then investigate upgrades. If your listening postion (MLP) sounds good but other locations have problems, a second F12 could help smooth room modes & provide a little additional headroom.

As discussed earlier, large open floorplan areas are difficult to pressurize. That doesn't mean you can't get great sound, but you'll have a hard time accomplishing that physical "hit to the chest" feeling that folks with subs in small sealed rooms can achieve. At least that's been my experience. If you want to feel the bass in your room a better solution might be a shaker mounted to your seating:

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/lfe-kit

I'd be interested to see an updated chart if you're willing to try the recommendations that I posted earlier.
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post #42 of 49 Old 01-17-2014, 08:29 AM
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Not to stir the pot but do you think the problem is that the F12 is too clean. I’m a Rythmik fan but I will admit that the sealed subs from them are not first on my list when it comes to Home Theater.
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post #43 of 49 Old 01-17-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No argument, that's why I qualified my comment by saying: "To some, calling the FV15HP a budget minded subwoofer will sound absurd."

My personal philosophy allows me to take poetic license with pretty much anything that qualifies as subjective, a blanket statement, all inclusive, assuming or otherwise. The point, as you suggest, from my perspective, the FV15HP qualifies as a "budget minded" subwoofer and from someone else's perspective, on my part, they're welcome to consider the comment to be a ludicrous comment. And?

As to what qualifies as luxury, above clean water, breathable air, food and shelter, that too is a subjective discussion.

(i would hope a comment made in honesty and fun, won't be flipped into an existential argument)

-
It won't....Moreover, once "Maslow's hierarchy" is neatly subdued and squared away, the real fun in life can begin no?

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

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post #44 of 49 Old 01-17-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post

Not to stir the pot but do you think the problem is that the F12 is too clean. I’m a Rythmik fan but I will admit that the sealed subs from them are not first on my list when it comes to Home Theater.
UUUfff...Now, thou shalt not castigate the sealed sub just because it likes to stay clean. "Dirty" it beats being, would you say not?tongue.gif I will say this however... as the room shrinks, a sealed subwoofer can approach the same level of visceral mayhem that a vented sub can unleash ... without over-driving the room or creating a fatiguing theatrical bottom octave that becomes monotonous. Bass should go away and come back again ... strike out of nowhere, without warning ... not persist in dogged fashion. Claude Debussy said it best..."Music is the space/silence between the notes." That is why I adore critical-Q subs, even though I have to build them myself. Moreover, I happen to think that a 2x21" sealed can slap you around pretty good in 1200 cu. ft. As it is currently, one is doing a pretty good job.

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

Klipsch RB-35's main

Klipsch RB-35's surround

Acoustech HT-65 center

Cerwin-Vega CV-2800

 

Subwoofer

B&C 21SW152-4  [21" critical-Q]

 

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post #45 of 49 Old 01-17-2014, 09:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kramskoi View Post

It won't....Moreover, once "Maslow's hierarchy" is neatly subdued and squared away, the real fun in life can begin no?

I'm not familiar with "Maslow's hierarchy" but a few moments with Google, and all shall be known. tongue.gif
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post #46 of 49 Old 01-17-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post

Not to stir the pot but do you think the problem is that the F12 is too clean. I’m a Rythmik fan but I will admit that the sealed subs from them are not first on my list when it comes to Home Theater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kramskoi View Post

UUUfff...Now, thou shalt not castigate the sealed sub just because it likes to stay clean. "Dirty" it beats being, would you say not?tongue.gif I will say this however... as the room shrinks, a sealed subwoofer can approach the same level of visceral mayhem that a vented sub can unleash ... without over-driving the room or creating a fatiguing theatrical bottom octave that becomes monotonous. Bass should go away and come back again ... strike out of nowhere, without warning ... not persist in dogged fashion. Claude Debussy said it best..."Music is the space/silence between the notes." That is why I adore critical-Q subs, even though I have to build them myself. Moreover, I happen to think that a 2x21" sealed can slap you around pretty good in 1200 cu. ft. As it is currently, one is doing a pretty good job.

That's why I'm looking at vented subs if I decide to upgrade. With 3000 cu ft of unsealed space I'm wondering if a single small sealed sub was the wrong decision. What I feel like I'm missing is the sub-20Hz tactile sensation of the bass.

Still going to try to get the output up below 20Hz, then use the PEQ to try to smooth out the 50Hz dip, then take some measurements and see where I'm at. I'll post some graphs once I get around to doing this. It's hard to get the wife and kid out of the house long enough to measure smile.gif One of the pitfalls of having the system in the family room rather than in my own man-cave.
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post #47 of 49 Old 01-17-2014, 11:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jobio View Post

That's why I'm looking at vented subs if I decide to upgrade. With 3000 cu ft of unsealed space I'm wondering if a single small sealed sub was the wrong decision. What I feel like I'm missing is the sub-20Hz tactile sensation of the bass.

People don't believe me when I post that one needs to buy for music or Home Theater. A single small sealed subwoofer does not have the ability to give you what you want, the full tactile feel. That's going take two or three subwoofers, one placed nearfield to the MLP.

In the case of Home Theater based bass, one has a better perspective if they approach it from the basic emotional level which is, I want to be thrilled. I want to rock this joint. I want to know I was watching a movie and that's going take about three or four time more subwoofer than most folks think is needed. How far are you willing to go to get what you want? Are you willing to go all the way?

Quote:
One of the pitfalls of having the system in the family room rather than in my own man-cave.

The wife just left to the yarn shop to chat and crochet. Better still, the subs and receiver are warming up so I can play with REW and PEQ and see what I can do with on going EQ efforts.

...biggrin.gif
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post #48 of 49 Old 01-17-2014, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

People don't believe me when I post that one needs to buy for music or Home Theater. A single small sealed subwoofer does not have the ability to give you what you want, the full tactile feel. That's going take two or three subwoofers, one placed nearfield to the MLP.

Well, near-field placement is one option I have, and one of the reasons I started this thread. I can get a second F12 and place it directly next to the couch (see room layout I posted above), or get a pair of PB2000 (vented) or XV15 and place one next to the couch. Or get a single FV15HP and place it upfront or next to the couch. I really don't see a second FV15HP in my future, though. I simply don't think that will pass the WAF due to cost.

I would love to audition all of these options in-house, but only SVS allows me to do that. Plus I'm trying to be satisfied without busting a budget (yeah, I know...bass costs money).

As an aside, my reasoning for buying the F12 in the first place was that I thought I would use this system for about 50%/50% music/movies. Turns out it's about 95% movies.
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post #49 of 49 Old 01-17-2014, 12:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jobio View Post

Turns out it's about 95% movies.

This day and age, we listen to music to and from work and unless puttering in an office, we're watching cable TV or movies.

Budgets are an intrinsic detail and I hope you can find a rational solution to this predicament.
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