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-   -   Help with Upgrade Options - Need More Bass (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1511905-help-upgrade-options-need-more-bass.html)

Jobio 01-14-2014 03:27 PM

Almost a year ago I decided to purchase a Rythmik F12 based on many great reviews of the company's subwoofers here on AVS. This is the first sub I've ever owned, and I've been mostly happy with it. However, one thing I didn't take into consideration when making the purchase was the size of my room, and further reading on AVS makes me think that I need more sub for my space, especially since I don't feel the bass the way I want to (lack of room pressurization?).

So, here is the floor plan:




The family room with the TV has sloped ceilings going from 14' - 8'. Including the kitchen area, I calculated ~3000 cubic ft. Based on what I've read on the board about subs "seeing" adjoining spaces, the sub will also need to fill the adjoining living room (4' wide entry between the two areas) that is also 2000-3000 cubic ft (didn't take exact measurements), so let's say 5000-6000 cubic ft total that the sub needs to fill. I'm pretty sure the single F12 is too small.

Since I have no idea how to compare subs based on output and frequency range, or how to use those published measurements to know if it is enough sub for my space, I'm looking for some recommendations. Budget is <$1500. Use in mainly home theater. Loudest listening levels are typically -10 from reference. If it matters, other gear is a Marantz 5006 receiver and Focal 726 mains and matching center/rears.

What I've been thinking so far:

- Add a second F12 (enough to fill the space?)
- Dual XV15 (WAF might be a problem)
- Dual PB-2000 (enough to fill the space? better than dual F12?)
- Single F15HP (don't see myself getting a second one anytime soon)
- Dual VTF-3 MK4 (better than others above?)
- Dual VTF 15H (over budget, might be able to rationalize it if it's that much better than above options)

SVS PB-2000 is the front runner in my mind right now due to cost/performance ratio. Plus free shipping back if I don't like them. However, there is no point in getting them if people don't think they'll fill the space. Again, not looking to shake the foundation at reference levels, but need more "punch" than I'm getting now.

Kini62 01-14-2014 04:35 PM

Since you have on sealed rythmik, why not ask them if you could integrate a FV15HP into the mix. That would be in your budget, give you the most output and you'd still two subs to even things out.

Otherwise what would you do with your F12 if you went with duals of some other sub?

Jobio 01-14-2014 04:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Since you have on sealed rythmik, why not ask them if you could integrate a FV15HP into the mix. That would be in your budget, give you the most output and you'd still two subs to even things out.

Otherwise what would you do with your F12 if you went with duals of some other sub?

I thought about that, but my assumption was that overall the system would perform at the level of the F12, since it's the weakest link. Also, I'm under the impression that configuring two different subwoofers can be difficult, so I'm worried about increasing the level of complication though I do own a measuring mic and (sort of) know how to run REW.

I would sell the F12. It's flawless, less than a year old, and under warranty. I figure someone would want it. Otherwise it can go into a bedroom system.

shadyJ 01-14-2014 05:05 PM

Two VTF15hs ought to do the trick in that space. They will stand the greatest chance of pressurizing your room. The VTF3 and PB2000s will do well also, but the VTF15h has a substantial performance advantage over either.

Hopinater 01-14-2014 05:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Since you have on sealed rythmik, why not ask them if you could integrate a FV15HP into the mix. That would be in your budget, give you the most output and you'd still two subs to even things out.
 

 

I agree with Kini, I would contact Rythmik and ask them for their take on it. They should know their subs better than anyone else and could really be helpful in your decision making. I think I would consider a second F12 or the FV15HP if they Ryhtmik endorsed it. 

 

If you decide to go a different direction I would suggest the FV15HP if you want to go with a single sub. If you want to go dual subs I would either go with dual XV15s (I have it and really like it) or dual SVS PB-2000. 


henrich3 01-14-2014 05:24 PM

You may need to lower your expectations a bit. You could put a couple of 18-inchers in your open floorplan room and still not pressurize it (chest slam), if that's what you're hoping for.

If you're getting good response from your existing F12 you may find that just increasing the subwoofer channel gain in your AVR by several dB can make a big difference in your satisfaction with the sound. It's difficult to solve a problem without the necessary information however. Can you post your REW measurements?

BeeMan458 01-14-2014 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

You may need to lower your expectations a bit. You could put a couple of 18-inchers in your open floorplan room and still not pressurize it (chest slam), if that's what you're hoping for.

I get furniture/floor/whole room rumble and shaking but can't say I have experience "chest slam." What should I look for?

(+1 on the FV15HP recommendation)

Cowboys 01-14-2014 05:40 PM

I wish all company runs business like SVS who allows trade in upgrade up to a year beside from paying for shipping both way and 5 yrs warranty. Not sure if the pb2000 is an upgrade over your F12 as it is more of a lateral move. For about your budget, I vote for dual xv15 but if it was me, I take a single fv15hp now and add a second one later which was exactly what I did. I came real real close to place an order on dual XV15's a year ago but pulled back and got a single fv15hp instead. I suggest you to check the numbers in databass to compare subs. I did that and the fv15hp clearly was and is still the winner within my price range and I feel real good about my decision after reading Dom's ULF thread. If I went with the xv15, I know I would ask myself what if I was going with the fv15hp

BeeMan458 01-14-2014 05:45 PM

The beauty of a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs, unless one is willing to pretty much double their budget or add a third FV15HP, there's nothing left to upgrade too.

...tongue.gif

All hail to the Top Dog (FV15HP) of the budget minded subwoofers.

...biggrin.gif

-

henrich3 01-14-2014 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I get furniture/floor/whole room rumble and shaking but can't say I have experience "chest slam." What should I look for?

The goal should be great sound. I have what I consider great sound in my open floorplan HT, but even five 18" drivers running 8 dB hot don't provide as much tactile response as I've felt in a modestly sized sealed room with a single 15-incher. Powerful, yes. Tactile, not so much.

BeeMan458 01-14-2014 05:52 PM

I have great sound and at reference level play, I have a boatload of tactile feel. In good conscience, I can't say I know what "chest slam" is. confused.gif

henrich3 01-14-2014 05:55 PM

Crank up some AC/DC in a car with a good sub. The feeling in your chest is the room pressurization / chest slam I'm referring to.

BeeMan458 01-14-2014 06:10 PM

Thanks!

Jobio 01-14-2014 07:02 PM

Thanks for the replies so far.

So a couple of questions:

- Cowboys suggested that the PB2000 would be a lateral move from the F12. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

- Will the F12 + FV15HP dual set-up be any better than dual F12s? In other words, would the F12 hold the FV15HP back in performance? If not, am I going to have to go to great lengths to get the two to play nice together? (I'll also ask Rythmik about this, but curious to here other's opinions)

shadyJ 01-14-2014 07:06 PM

You wouldn't want to run a f12 alongside a FV15HP. The f12 will not be able to keep up, and would be overdriven if it tried to be heard at all over a FV15HP. As for the f12 vs the PB2000, we don't have measurements of either. The PB2000 will have a lot more output from the mid teens to near 40 Hz on account of its port.

Jobio 01-14-2014 08:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The PB2000 will have a lot more output from the mid teens to near 40 Hz on account of its port.

This was one of the reasons I was considering moving away from the F12 entirely; I always see it suggested that a ported sub is best in my situation. And in the case of the PB-2000 I would be able to test this without risk.

BeeMan458 01-14-2014 11:38 PM

If your budget will handle it, just go for two FV15HPs and fer-get-about-it. Mixing and matching is right up there with wishing-and-a-hoping.

The way I read your comments, you want to commit but due to the price of admission, you're hesitant to commit.

The sooner one commits to putting together a reference level system, the sooner they'll get to where they "REALLY" want to go.

(my wife enables me and I pass it forward)

-

bear123 01-14-2014 11:51 PM

Based on your budget, room size, and sub choices, I would recommend dual XV15's.  I believe this will give you the best potential of pressurizing your large space within your budget, as it is a great max output bang for your buck subwoofer for those looking for max SPL.


BeeMan458 01-14-2014 11:54 PM

^ +1

Two XV15s are good.

bear123 01-15-2014 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobio View Post

Thanks for the replies so far.

So a couple of questions:

- Cowboys suggested that the PB2000 would be a lateral move from the F12. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

- Will the F12 + FV15HP dual set-up be any better than dual F12s? In other words, would the F12 hold the FV15HP back in performance? If not, am I going to have to go to great lengths to get the two to play nice together? (I'll also ask Rythmik about this, but curious to here other's opinions)


I do not have personal experience with this BUT.....I had a similar question as I upgraded my sub and was left wondering what to do with the old.  One of the more astute voices on this forum(imo), Bill Fitzmaurice, stated that running a smaller sub with a larger would not in any way hurt or hinder the larger sub, but would simply serve to smooth in room response. 

 

  I think the solution would be to simply adjust the gain on the smaller sub so that it is not running out of steam before you get to normal listening level, as the bigger sub would obviously have clean output at much higher spl.


henrich3 01-15-2014 06:17 AM

Whenever a new thread pops up where the OP complains about underwhelming bass, there's always a rush to recommend sub upgrades. Unless one first has frequency response charts showing what's going on at the MLP, it's just throwing money at a problem without understanding the reason for the disappointment. If the locations of the sub & MLP are such that the MLP is in a big null, then swapping subs won't resolve the problem. If the OP has expectations that upgrading his 12" to a 15" will provide room pressurization in his open floorplan, that's not going to happen. If his curent chart looks great but he's underwhelmed with the LFE after Audyssey EQ's it flat relative to frequencies above the crossover, then he probably won't be much happier with a 15" that's also EQ'ed flat. Measure first, resolve any placement problems, then see if running your current sub hot will provide the impact that you're looking for. If you still have a problem where your current sub runs out of steam too soon (insufficient max SPL) or the low end response isn't deep enough, then investigate upgrades.

arnyk 01-15-2014 06:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobio View Post

Almost a year ago I decided to purchase a Rythmik F12 based on many great reviews of the company's subwoofers here on AVS. This is the first sub I've ever owned, and I've been mostly happy with it. However, one thing I didn't take into consideration when making the purchase was the size of my room, and further reading on AVS makes me think that I need more sub for my space, especially since I don't feel the bass the way I want to (lack of room pressurization?).

So, here is the floor plan:




The family room with the TV has sloped ceilings going from 14' - 8'. Including the kitchen area, I calculated ~3000 cubic ft. Based on what I've read on the board about subs "seeing" adjoining spaces, the sub will also need to fill the adjoining living room (4' wide entry between the two areas) that is also 2000-3000 cubic ft (didn't take exact measurements), so let's say 5000-6000 cubic ft total that the sub needs to fill. I'm pretty sure the single F12 is too small.

Since I have no idea how to compare subs based on output and frequency range, or how to use those published measurements to know if it is enough sub for my space, I'm looking for some recommendations. Budget is <$1500. Use in mainly home theater. Loudest listening levels are typically -10 from reference. If it matters, other gear is a Marantz 5006 receiver and Focal 726 mains and matching center/rears.

What I've been thinking so far:

- Add a second F12 (enough to fill the space?)
- Dual XV15 (WAF might be a problem)
- Dual PB-2000 (enough to fill the space? better than dual F12?)
- Single F15HP (don't see myself getting a second one anytime soon)
- Dual VTF-3 MK4 (better than others above?)
- Dual VTF 15H (over budget, might be able to rationalize it if it's that much better than above options)

SVS PB-2000 is the front runner in my mind right now due to cost/performance ratio. Plus free shipping back if I don't like them. However, there is no point in getting them if people don't think they'll fill the space. Again, not looking to shake the foundation at reference levels, but need more "punch" than I'm getting now.

You don't need to throw more and better subwoofers at your room until you start running out of dynamic range or have bass holes you can't fill.

If drivers bottom, there is audible modulation or doubling or tripling and the like, then you need more dynamic range, but not until.

If all you need is more bass oomph, then equalization (either in the AVR or in line with the subwoofer cable) seems to be a more flexible and cost-effective solution.

Your best solution is to get something like REW (Room Eq Wizard) and get an objective view of what's actually happening. I know this violates the audiophile rule of spending thousands of dollars for audio gear but spend not a dime on audio test equipment, but... ;-)

Hopinater 01-15-2014 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

All hail to the Top Dog (FV15HP) of the budget minded subwoofers.

...biggrin.gif

-

LOL. Beeman you truly are a subwoofer enabler. That's the first time I think I've ever seen a Rythmik FV15HP called a budget subwoofer. But I guess it is compared to the next step up. 


BeeMan458 01-15-2014 08:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

LOL. Beeman you truly are a subwoofer enabler. That's the first time I think I've ever seen a Rythmik FV15HP called a budget subwoofer. But I guess it is compared to the next step up.

...biggrin.gif

To some, calling the FV15HP a budget minded subwoofer will sound absurd. But as you suggest, the next tier of ID (manufactured) subs are that much more expensive. In my opinion, two FV15HPs in a room, one placed nearfield to the MLP, properly dialed in, will definitely fulfill a person's need for more bass.

Ozzie Isaac 01-15-2014 08:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...biggrin.gif

To some, calling the FV15HP a budget minded subwoofer will sound absurd. But as you suggest, the next tier of ID (manufactured) subs are that much more expensive. In my opinion, two FV15HPs in a room, one placed nearfield to the MLP, properly dialed in, will definitely fulfill a person's need for more bass.

Beeman, you crack me up. I love my FV15HP, but I would never call it a budget minded sub.

To many factors to say what is budget minded to make that blanket statement.

Subs are a luxury. What one can afford to drop on a luxury item varies greatly.

It maybe top dog in its budget range (people will debate that), but best in its range does not make it budget minded.

I say that as your friend. smile.gif

BeeMan458 01-15-2014 08:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Beeman, you crack me up. I love my FV15HP, but I would never call it a budget minded sub.

No argument, that's why I qualified my comment by saying: "To some, calling the FV15HP a budget minded subwoofer will sound absurd."

My personal philosophy allows me to take poetic license with pretty much anything that qualifies as subjective, a blanket statement, all inclusive, assuming or otherwise. The point, as you suggest, from my perspective, the FV15HP qualifies as a "budget minded" subwoofer and from someone else's perspective, on my part, they're welcome to consider the comment to be a ludicrous comment. And?

As to what qualifies as luxury, above clean water, breathable air, food and shelter, that too is a subjective discussion.

(i would hope a comment made in honesty and fun, won't be flipped into an existential argument)

-

Ozzie Isaac 01-15-2014 08:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

(i would hope a comment made in honesty and fun, won't be flipped into an existential argument)

Your taking all the fun out of Internet arguing!

If a person can't argue what is the fun. wink.gif

BeeMan458 01-15-2014 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Your taking all the fun out of Internet arguing!

If a person can't argue what is the fun. wink.gif

...tongue.gif

Sorry. Old guys are just no fun. Must be why I post in my signature: "I am not the voice of reason."

...tongue.gif

Ozzie Isaac 01-15-2014 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...tongue.gif

Sorry. Old guys are just no fun.

...tongue.gif

At least you didn't point out my incorrect use of "Your" smile.gif

Cowboys 01-15-2014 09:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Beeman, you crack me up. I love my FV15HP, but I would never call it a budget minded sub.

To many factors to say what is budget minded to make that blanket statement.

Subs are a luxury. What one can afford to drop on a luxury item varies greatly.

It maybe top dog in its budget range (people will debate that), but best in its range does not make it budget minded.

I say that as your friend. smile.gif
I have a friend who thought I was crazy spending $600 on my last HSU sub frown.gif. He has a 10" 50W Polk sub in his 3000ft^3 room, grrrr


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