JL Audio F212 (Pair) VS SVS PB13 Ultra (pair) VS Funk Audio Vs any other Pair of good sub - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Dear Forum Members,

Need your esteemed and knowledgeable advice on a dilemma I have at present.

I have been meaning to upgrade my current Sub a SVS PC 12 PLUS as I have moved to larger listening space.

I have a budget of USD 5000 set aside for a dual sub configuration.

So was thinking of a pair of SVS PB13 Ultras or the SB13 Ultras. With shipping this would work out to USD 5000 as I live in Dubai and this would be in my budget.
lso was considering Funk Audio, Rythmik, Seaton and RBH.

However I reached out to the local JL Audio delaer here and they have provided me with an astonishing rate of USD 7600 for a pair of JL Audio F212's!!! These are Demo pieces and come with a full warranty. That's essentially a pair of F212's for the price of one.

If I buy the JL's I overshoot my budget by USD 2.5 K. My room is 15ftx16ftx13ft (3000CU)

Are the JL Audio F212's worth it at this price. Also will this be an overkill for my room?

Do i just save the money and go with SVS/Funk/RBH/Rythmik

My system is:
Tekton Pendragons (L+R)
Dali ikon (center) will be changing to the pendragon center soon
Anthem MRX 700
Oppo BDP 103
PS3
Teac UDH-501 DAC


Thanks for all your kind advice/suggestions in advance. I need to make a decision in a few days.

Val
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post #2 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 07:51 AM
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15' x 16' x 13' = 3,120 cu.ft.

Dual SVS PB-2000s would do a good job in that space. Dual...
- SVS PB12-Pluses or PB13-Ultras
- Rythmik FV15HPs
- HSU VTF-15Hs
- PSA XV15s or XS30s
...would do wonders in there.

I don't see any value in spending the money on the JLs...unless, for example, you were to flip them for a healthy profit, buy two of some other brand of sub, and pocket the difference.
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post #3 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 07:56 AM
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Might I ask how old is your PC12-PLUS?

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post #4 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:00 AM
 
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Based on your amplifier, I'd split the money between two Rythmik FV15HPs and a Denon AVR4520ci which is what we did.

The problem, your receiver doesn't have enough power to keep up with a pair of output monsters like the Rythmik FV15HPs during difficult action scenes and the subs will leave the speakers behind as action sounds produced through the speakers, will fall way behind the action sound produced by the subwoofers.

A suggestion, check out the first couple of posts in the ULF thread to give you an idea of what different Top Dog subwoofers are capable of.

The idea is to put together a reference capable system that can continuously reproduce, distortion free at reference levels. Doesn't mean one has to go there, but for most, that's the goal around this forum.

Welcome to AVS and the subwoofer forum.

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post #5 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply Eljay... yes I was leaning towards the Dubal Rythmiks FV15HP's as well.. But the F212's at this price seem quite unreal even though its a good stretch on my budget. the used market out here is not that good so selling at profit is out of the question:)

@ Steve, My PC12-Plus is almost 4 years old. In a smaller room they were stunning, not so much in the larger room.

Cheers
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post #6 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:05 AM
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I think that you should reduce that budget by about $1,500 unless it includes shipping/custom fees/taxes. Seaton also offer premium finishes on his subs although this may increase the shipping time. However, the performance and quality(sound and components) would be worth the wait and final cost.

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post #7 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:08 AM
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I have been meaning to upgrade my current Sub a SVS PC 12 PLUS as I have moved to larger listening space.
Quote:
@ Steve, My PC12-Plus is almost 4 years old. In a smaller room they were stunning, not so much in the larger room.

Cheers

Oh so it's dual you have and not a single then? might you confirm..

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post #8 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your reply Beeman.. I was thinking of adding a power amp when budget allows (like the emotiva XPA-5) to beef up the system.

Any thoughts on the Emotiva XPA 5, MRX 700 and the F212's working together?
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post #9 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:12 AM
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Having a local dealer for service might be nice.

If there is a local SVS dealer I would go that route.
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post #10 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry about the typo steve.. i mean in a smaller room it was stunning.. I have a single sub at present
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post #11 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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There are no local dealers for SVS/Rythmik/Seaton/RBH/HSU out here.

JL Audio have an authorised dealer that will back the warranty and i pay no shipping.. plus no wait times. However I would say i'd still paying USD 2500 more for the F212's compared to Dual FV15Hp's.
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post #12 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val667 View Post

Sorry about the typo steve.. i mean in a smaller room it was stunning.. I have a single sub at present

My first suggestion would be to see how viable it us to upgrade you current PLUS to a current PLUS with a new amp and driver and pick up another PLUS at the same time. I can’t imagine dual PLUS’s not performing quite admiralty in a room that size in the 16 or 20hz tune.

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post #13 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:36 AM
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eljay - SVS PB13-Pluses or PB13-Ultras

Hey eljay, Is there a new PLUS sliding in under my radar? smile.gif

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post #14 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:38 AM
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D'oh! I meant PB12-Plus. I'll correct my earlier post. smile.gif
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post #15 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Val667 View Post

Any thoughts on the Emotiva XPA 5, MRX 700 and the F212's working together?

Big fan of Emotiva Amps but.....personally, I don't like the extra clutter of outboard Amps and the extra cables necessary to connect everything. Here's a review on the Denon AVR4520CI.

This comment in the "Summing It Up" section at the end of the review, caught my eye:

"I initially intended on reviewing it and then selling it, but instead I have already sold my Onkyo 5508, XPA-3 amp and XPA-1 monoblocks. I keep thinking to myself that the 4520 seems to be a little on the pricey side, but if you consider what any other processor with the same features would cost you and then add the expense of amplification, the 4520 price actually sounds like a bargain."

The short, the reviewer sold his Emotiva amplifiers because the amplification section of the 4520ci, in his experience opinion, was that good, which makes the 4520ci, that much better of a buy. The 4520ci is 4ohm capable. OTOH, based on reviews I have read on the MRX 700, when under demanding situations, is woefully underpowered for Home Theater application.

We have a 3300^3 listening space that opens out to other large rooms and despite the open nature of our room, the FV15HP/4520ci combination is easily able to obtain continuous reference level playback and at +/-0dB MVC, the system is well matched so the speakers are able to keep up with the subwoofers.

Another point, checkout the first couple of pages that I linked to, in the ULF thread. You'll see what Seaton, Funk, JTR and Rythmik are capable of, in what volume size room.
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post #16 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:49 AM
 
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Regarding the JL Audio F212s, if going sealed, I'd buy three Rythmik F25s and call it a day.
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post #17 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Val667 View Post

There are no local dealers for SVS/Rythmik/Seaton/RBH/HSU out here.

JL Audio have an authorised dealer that will back the warranty and i pay no shipping.. plus no wait times. However I would say i'd still paying USD 2500 more for the F212's compared to Dual FV15Hp's.

I have never heard the JL's, but for the cost savings you could buy a backup sub for most the other options. So maybe having a local dealer isn't worth it.

If the room is sealed I would look at a pair of Rythmik F25s. Since you have no dimensions larger than 20ft you should get some cabin gain.
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post #18 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 08:53 AM
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Beeman beat me to the F25s ... smile.gif
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Beeman beat me to the F25s ... smile.gif

Sorry. tongue.gif
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post #20 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 09:21 AM
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Are the JL Audio F212's worth it at this price. Also will this be an overkill for my room?

Do i just save the money and go with SVS/Funk/RBH/Rythmik


Val

Whether or not they're "worth it" is subjective and hard for others to estimate. You may want to go see them. IMO there is no comparison to the ID brands in the area of build quality. They are like pieces of industrial art. The amp section is the real deal. And they get real loud.

The problem is, those things don't matter when it comes to the basic things we expect a sub to do. Your other choices will do those as well if not better than the JL and save you money. The JLs will probably have a better re-sale value and be easier to sell, and having local support is always a plus.

I think you're on the right track with all the choices here, I think they will all wake that room up. If you can, go down to the guys shop and put your eyeballs on the JL.
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post #21 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 09:26 AM
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BTW, if you're looking for sub 20hz performance, the JLs are purposely cut off just below 20hz. No idea why they do that but, there it is.
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post #22 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Tack. I do have an audition with the dealers this Saturday so looking forward to that. Will post my experience with them after. Might try to bring them further down on the price.
If I manage to get them down to USD 6500 then its almost the price of 2 PB 13 Ultras (including shipping) for me which I think would be a real deal.

Didn't know that the JL's cut off just below 20hz.. hmmm thats really interesting..


@Beeman and OZZIE-- Really liking the ideas of the F25's . However shipping would be much more on those..Again if I get the F212's for USD 6500 or cheaper then Im almost at the same cost of 2 F25's with shipping
My room is sealed

The denon flagship is a real interesting however i would need to sell the Anthem MRX 700 and then add some more to get 4520. Thus the XPA 5 option is more economical at the moment.

I had a chance to buy a used Onkyo TX-N010 for less than half the new price and lost the opportunity because I was 20 minutes too late:) Now that receiver was a beast! This was before I decided to get the MRX.
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post #23 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 10:14 AM
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BTW, if you're looking for sub 20hz performance, the JLs are purposely cut off just below 20hz.
According to the manual, 19Hz @ -3dB. Would the OP's 15' x 16' room provide sufficient cabin gain to let the subs extend usefully into the mid- to low-teens range?
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To make a very important note that doesn't seem to have been made, with the JLs cutting off just below 20Hz, one loses all the potential below that point. In truth, based on the "Bass in Movie" thread, there's much to worrying about the <20Hz output and when putting together a system, getting below <20Hz is an important aspect of today's subwoofer systems.

The goal is to work for single digit, reference capable output. Yes, it makes a room rumbling difference. Check out the party going on over in the Triax thread as those guys are having an absolute blast with their single digit output.
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post #25 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 10:20 AM
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Didn't know that the JL's cut off just below 20hz.. hmmm thats really interesting..


They decide to cut below 20 and feed above where it takes little excursion. Very simple concept actually. If they didn’t, their product would realize over excursion with the power they employ. I would never sacrifice the low stuff for that kind of $$ unless I had to.. that's just me though.


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post #26 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 11:35 AM
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They decide to cut below 20 and feed above where it takes little excursion. Very simple concept actually. If they didn’t, their product would realize over excursion with the power they employ. I would never sacrifice the low stuff for that kind of $$ unless I had to.. that's just me though.

They could have at least done something with all the tech in that amp. Let the low stuff flow and start limiting as the volume goes up. That graph is only valid at full throttle. But they just killed it. Maybe their target audience doesn't care.
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post #27 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 11:41 AM
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According to the manual, 19Hz @ -3dB. Would the OP's 15' x 16' room allow for sufficient cabin gain to let the subs deliver useful output in the low to mid teens?

If they kill the signal with a steep high pass, there's really nothing there to "gain". It's not a deal breaker for everyone, but for some it's important.
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post #28 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 11:42 AM
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If they kill the signal with a steep high pass, there's really nothing there to "gain".
Right, of course. *facepalm*
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post #29 of 72 Old 01-16-2014, 11:48 AM
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I just realized he said his room is 15 x 16. That may be some trouble right there. May want to borrow another sub, get setup with REW and start messing with placement before buying.
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I think with your budget the Funk option would be really nice, the TSAD18v1 driver used in the Funk subs is probably one of the best hand made drivers on the market. And Nathan using a top notch amp too, and the 18.0SE are priced at $2550 shipped. If you were considering JL's IMO these dual 18.0SE's would be a better option. Plus I believe Nathan will program the DSP on the amp to have multiple setups in it which in another nice option.

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