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post #1531 of 1608 Old 12-20-2014, 09:06 PM
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Such as having subs in the front and rear of your room.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #1532 of 1608 Old 12-20-2014, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post


Since the PS18x hasn't been released yet how were you able to discern this? Wouldn't it be better to wait until one actually exists before making proclamations about what it can/can't do?
We have some shipping right after the Holiday.

I have not had Ricci test it so I can't make a comparison within a few db.
I suggested the UXL as only a ballpark and again, it would be hasty to try and estimate things within a few db. There could be quite some variance due to T/S differences, although physically similar.
So in short: it is premature to try and slice up number racing with subs listed on data-bass.com.
You'd be comparing phantom numbers.


In general, I don't like the "this sub is 2 db louder than this sub at this frequency etc" discussions because it would be hard to buy something and say "wow this sub is great but I'm really missing those 2 db more I could get at 16hz before the driver bottoms out. I keep reaching the limits of my sub and man, those 2 decibels would just put it over the top and I would be set!".

In reality, no-one really does that.

What I can confidently say is that if the poster is looking for more all around performance not just better subsonics, the PS18x probably delivers much more overall output vs a single 15" ported sub, especially above and below the tuning point. Above 30 hz the headroom is probably quite noticeable. The measurements for our two 15" models are online and I can say that this combination dwarfs both of those units over the whole bandwidth hand-idly.

If simply more subsonic performance is the only thing he feels is lacking, then looking simply at 12hz performance would be a big indicator. But the way I read it, it was an overall jump, including subsonics desired (maybe I'm wrong?). Being that the XS15se is pretty darn stout, I doubt switching to another two single 15" ported design boxes will give him all the performance jump he wants.

I would say the same thing about our PV-15x which measures a little higher but just behind the FV15hp. I always like to think that an upgrade, especially where one has to dig into the wallet and move around some big heavy boxes, should not be subtle.

Something like the Captivator ported would also probably be a great solution.
But then the box size comes into play if that matters.

If subsonics were not a main concern, I still like the idea of quad XV15se's in that space as well.
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post #1533 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 09:15 AM
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If I follow this correctly, a guy mentioned 12hz that he does not get with his subs. Adding more of the same sub(s) will not get him there. He needs to upgrade to sub(s) that can go low with useful output.
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post #1534 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 11:26 AM
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A lot of good info here guys. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. Im leaning more towards the PS-18X Master/Slave. But I have a question or two. For the same $$$, I could by 2 more XS15se's. Which would only give me more headroom as I understand. But with 4 subs, one on each wall, could that help flatten out the FR under 20Hz. I don't know if that is a peak I am seeing on the roll off, or two dips. But if I could get rid of that roller coaster looking dip maybe that would help. So my questions are, would a minidsp help? If you look at my graph, it looks like the FR was climbing back up from 12Hz to 10 Hz. I don't understand why I am getting these dips or have any knowledge in acoustics. I get the same result with ether sub or both subs together, and no matter where I move them. Or is it just the characteristics of these subs alone? Or is it my room and no matter what sub I have, I will get the same result? I look on PSA's website and there graph has a nice roll off. It doesn't look like a rector scale graph of an Earthquake.


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post #1535 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
A lot of good info here guys. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. Im leaning more towards the PS-18X Master/Slave. But I have a question or two. For the same $$$, I could by 2 more XS15se's. Which would only give me more headroom as I understand. But with 4 subs, one on each wall, could that help flatten out the FR under 20Hz. I don't know if that is a peak I am seeing on the roll off, or two dips. But if I could get rid of that roller coaster looking dip maybe that would help. So my questions are, would a minidsp help? If you look at my graph, it looks like the FR was climbing back up from 12Hz to 10 Hz. I don't understand why I am getting these dips or have any knowledge in acoustics. I get the same result with ether sub or both subs together, and no matter where I move them. Or is it just the characteristics of these subs alone? Or is it my room and no matter what sub I have, I will get the same result? I look on PSA's website and there graph has a nice roll off. It doesn't look like a rector scale graph of an Earthquake.
It would most likely be due to your room.
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post #1536 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
A lot of good info here guys. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. Im leaning more towards the PS-18X Master/Slave. But I have a question or two. For the same $$$, I could by 2 more XS15se's. Which would only give me more headroom as I understand. But with 4 subs, one on each wall, could that help flatten out the FR under 20Hz. I don't know if that is a peak I am seeing on the roll off, or two dips. But if I could get rid of that roller coaster looking dip maybe that would help. So my questions are, would a minidsp help? If you look at my graph, it looks like the FR was climbing back up from 12Hz to 10 Hz. I don't understand why I am getting these dips or have any knowledge in acoustics. I get the same result with ether sub or both subs together, and no matter where I move them. Or is it just the characteristics of these subs alone? Or is it my room and no matter what sub I have, I will get the same result? I look on PSA's website and there graph has a nice roll off. It doesn't look like a rector scale graph of an Earthquake.


well the extension issue is the room not the subs. the xs15se is capable of extending down to 10hz. adding 2 more could very well improve your extension below 20hz.
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post #1537 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
A lot of good info here guys. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. Im leaning more towards the PS-18X Master/Slave. But I have a question or two. For the same $$$, I could by 2 more XS15se's. Which would only give me more headroom as I understand. But with 4 subs, one on each wall, could that help flatten out the FR under 20Hz. I don't know if that is a peak I am seeing on the roll off, or two dips. But if I could get rid of that roller coaster looking dip maybe that would help. So my questions are, would a minidsp help? If you look at my graph, it looks like the FR was climbing back up from 12Hz to 10 Hz. I don't understand why I am getting these dips or have any knowledge in acoustics. I get the same result with ether sub or both subs together, and no matter where I move them. Or is it just the characteristics of these subs alone? Or is it my room and no matter what sub I have, I will get the same result? I look on PSA's website and there graph has a nice roll off. It doesn't look like a rector scale graph of an Earthquake.

Exactly what jbrown said and a minidsp would be beneficial to any sub owner.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #1538 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 12:16 PM
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While waiting the arrival of my PS18x, I went ahead and purchased a new Anthem mrx-710 based on the rave reviews and ARC calibration system.

Just set it up a few minutes ago and did my first test. Very impressed with it so far but I'm curious how it compares to REW.
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post #1539 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Exactly what jbrown said and a minidsp would be beneficial to any sub owner.
There is a couple guys over on the PSA thread that has had worst results using the mididsp that they unhooked it! It could be user error, but if they couldn't figure it out, it makes me wonder if I would have any better success.
It sounds like room treatments is out of the question at the ULF range. So it may just be something that I have to just except.


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post #1540 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 02:20 PM
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If one gets worse results from a minidsp, then they do not know what they are doing. It is definitely operator error.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #1541 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
If one gets worse results from a minidsp, then they do not know what they are doing. It is definitely operator error.
Is this very difficult to learn how to use? In other words, do you have to be a electrical engineer to understand how to use it, or can any noob like myself learn how to use it with success? lol


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post #1542 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 04:56 PM
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All you have to do is sit down and read how to get started and then play with it. Each person is different on how fast they pick it up but you don't have to have a PHD in quantum physics or anything remotely close.

It is a cheap investment and really the best bang for the buck. I guess the biggest investment is your time, but it is fun to take control and tune it. Tell those other guys that they can implement a house curve to get the subs to sound the way they want. That is the great thing about tuning yourself. You can do whatever you want to make it sound they way you want.

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post #1543 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 05:01 PM
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I would strongly suggest buying the balanced 2x4 not the unbalanced. It seems that guys that are having issues all are using the unbalanced model.
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post #1544 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I would strongly suggest buying the balanced 2x4 not the unbalanced. It seems that guys that are having issues all are using the unbalanced model.
You are right. They have been questioning if that is the problem.


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post #1545 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 05:40 PM
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You are right. They have been questioning if that is the problem.
Interesting. I was thinking about getting a umik and possibly minidsp as my next upgrade, guess I'll hold off for now while we get this figured out. Keep us posted please!
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post #1546 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I would strongly suggest buying the balanced 2x4 not the unbalanced. It seems that guys that are having issues all are using the unbala
nced model.
Do you have to have a balanced capable reciever to use the balanced version? I have two cap s2's with obvious balanced inputs running off a denon 4000.
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post #1547 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 08:03 PM
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Do you have to have a balanced capable reciever to use the balanced version? I have two cap s2's with obvious balanced inputs running off a denon 4000.
My Pre/pro has balanced but the subs don't.


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post #1548 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 08:25 PM
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Just get the balanced and jump the - wire with the ground.

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post #1549 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Interesting. I was thinking about getting a umik and possibly minidsp as my next upgrade, guess I'll hold off for now while we get this figured out. Keep us posted please!
Until you get what figured out? The minidsp works great. I have no experience with the unbalanced version and I have no clue to why they even sell it. Balanced can work with any sub/avr combo.

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post #1550 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
If one gets worse results from a minidsp, then they do not know what they are doing. It is definitely operator error.
he is not explaining the scenario correctly...feel free to pop into the PSA thread to get a better understanding of what was said.
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post #1551 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 10:10 PM
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Balanced can output up to 2Vrms while the unbalanced can only go up to 0.9Vrms. That's probably where they are having problems if the problem is low volume.
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post #1552 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 10:20 PM
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he is not explaining the scenario correctly...feel free to pop into the PSA thread to get a better understanding of what was said.
That would be a good idea. I just said a couple of people where having trouble with the non-balance version and didnt like the results. I didn't say what kind of trouble or what kind of results. It would be better to get all the info over on that thread. Its only been the last couple days of conversation, so you don't have to read the whole thread.


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post #1553 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
Balanced can output up to 2Vrms while the unbalanced can only go up to 0.9Vrms. That's probably where they are having problems if the problem is low volume.
That was part of the problem.


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post #1554 of 1608 Old 12-21-2014, 11:55 PM
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I would get the MiniDSP NanoAVR DL if you're at all worried about setting it up. It makes the whole process very straight forward, and I've been very impressed with how Dirac Live handles the speaker correction too. It has more than tripled my interest in watching movies in my room now.. dialogue is way more intelligible, impulse response is better, and bass peaks have been much improved.
And then--you can customize your target EQ response! It's so cool!
So you can have 4 presets, with different EQ targets, and you can even have different presets for when you just want to listen, and presets set up for when you have multiple people watching. So what I do is have 2 for both, one preset with a flatter response, and one with a smooth roll-off, it's fantastic.

I know there are differing views on those panel bass traps, but the 2 I have are 13 inches thick in the middle of the triangle shape. It seems to help as far as I can tell at least.

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post #1555 of 1608 Old 12-22-2014, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
If one gets worse results from a minidsp, then they do not know what they are doing. It is definitely operator error.
It's not operator error. I have Ben using it for over a year. It's just now that my room requires higher spl I have noticed the issues. I believe I am clipping the signal
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I would strongly suggest buying the balanced 2x4 not the unbalanced. It seems that guys that are having issues all are using the unbalanced model.
Correct. The unbalanced seems to be the issue. I may try the balanced version or even the nanoavr
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Balanced can output up to 2Vrms while the unbalanced can only go up to 0.9Vrms. That's probably where they are having problems if the problem is low volume.
Agreed. This has only been an issue in my new larger room in the basment. So I needed higher spl. Even with no filters used the output was distorted.

So I removed it entirely and al is good
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post #1556 of 1608 Old 12-22-2014, 07:08 AM
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I would get the MiniDSP NanoAVR DL if you're at all worried about setting it up. It makes the whole process very straight forward, and I've been very impressed with how Dirac Live handles the speaker correction too. It has more than tripled my interest in watching movies in my room now.. dialogue is way more intelligible, impulse response is better, and bass peaks have been much improved.
And then--you can customize your target EQ response! It's so cool!
So you can have 4 presets, with different EQ targets, and you can even have different presets for when you just want to listen, and presets set up for when you have multiple people watching. So what I do is have 2 for both, one preset with a flatter response, and one with a smooth roll-off, it's fantastic.

I know there are differing views on those panel bass traps, but the 2 I have are 13 inches thick in the middle of the triangle shape. It seems to help as far as I can tell at least.

Do you have any REW graphs of before and after with your Bass Traps? I'm not sure if they would help me. I think if I had problems with peaks and my bass was boomy it might, but I have the opposite problem and need to raise it up in a couple areas. I don't even know if a DSP would help much. I wish minidsp had a 30 day return or a rental to see if you get any benefit.


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post #1557 of 1608 Old 12-22-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Player3 View Post
I would get the MiniDSP NanoAVR DL if you're at all worried about setting it up. It makes the whole process very straight forward, and I've been very impressed with how Dirac Live handles the speaker correction too. It has more than tripled my interest in watching movies in my room now.. dialogue is way more intelligible, impulse response is better, and bass peaks have been much improved.
And then--you can customize your target EQ response! It's so cool!
So you can have 4 presets, with different EQ targets, and you can even have different presets for when you just want to listen, and presets set up for when you have multiple people watching. So what I do is have 2 for both, one preset with a flatter response, and one with a smooth roll-off, it's fantastic.

I know there are differing views on those panel bass traps, but the 2 I have are 13 inches thick in the middle of the triangle shape. It seems to help as far as I can tell at least.
That looks great for BR players and CAB/SAT. But it wouldn't do anything if your source was coming directly from the receiver, like if you wanted to listen to Broadcast Music (HD Radio) or if you was a audiophile that has a vinyl collection.
I am using a new Marantz 7702Preamp with older McIntosh amp that only has RCA (unbalanced) inputs. If I wanted a minidsp for 2 to 4 subs, and also for my front main towers, what would be the best set up to have? (My 7702 does have balance XLR sub outputs and the RCA's)


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post #1558 of 1608 Old 12-22-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
It's not operator error. I have Ben using it for over a year. It's just now that my room requires higher spl I have noticed the issues. I believe I am clipping the signal

Correct. The unbalanced seems to be the issue. I may try the balanced version or even the nanoavr

Agreed. This has only been an issue in my new larger room in the basment. So I needed higher spl. Even with no filters used the output was distorted.

So I removed it entirely and al is good
With no filters on and it sounding distorted, I agree with you that you are probably clipping the signal.

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post #1559 of 1608 Old 12-22-2014, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Hound888 View Post
While waiting the arrival of my PS18x, I went ahead and purchased a new Anthem mrx-710 based on the rave reviews and ARC calibration system.

Just set it up a few minutes ago and did my first test. Very impressed with it so far but I'm curious how it compares to REW.
ARC is supposed to do a tremendous job with room correction. I've never used it myself but hear it's pretty configurable; much more so than Audyssey.

Since you only have one position you can have your subwoofer at, it makes REW a little less valuable in your case. (unless you're planning on getting a mini DSP &/OR getting into more advanced measurements such as waterfall graphs for room decay etc). Can you post a graph of the response your getting with ARC?
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post #1560 of 1608 Old 12-22-2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post
ARC is supposed to do a tremendous job with room correction. I've never used it myself but hear it's pretty configurable; much more so than Audyssey.

Since you only have one position you can have your subwoofer at, it makes REW a little less valuable in your case. (unless you're planning on getting a mini DSP &/OR getting into more advanced measurements such as waterfall graphs for room decay etc). Can you post a graph of the response your getting with ARC?
Arc seems to have made some good corrections in my room. It's really easy to use and only took 10 minutes which included my setting up the mic etc.


I only tested a few movies and it sounds really good. Obviously, there is no sub connected but I'm very impressed with the results so far.


Have a look at the charts and let me know what you guys think.
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Last edited by Hound888; 12-22-2014 at 09:13 AM.
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