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post #91 of 160 Old 06-21-2014, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
What sort of evolutionary improvements should one expect over current offerings, Jack? Being general as opposed to clinically specific is fine.
Haven't got the faintest idea, Chu. I'm not working for Chane and I've not been following things that closely over there (health issues) so i'm not privy to any inside info. I'm only a volunteer moderator at the forum. Basically, all I do is ban spammers, which I REALLY enjoy doing. May I say that the Chinese have spam bots down to a science.

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post #92 of 160 Old 06-21-2014, 07:43 PM
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People who live in the past miss the present...you can't "miss" the future.
And in this instance, a good guess is that history might soon repeat itself. LOL

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post #93 of 160 Old 06-21-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Most of our revisions were based on weather variances. I can't say for sure at this point but humidity and BP don't seem to be big players. Temps seem to be issue. Our first 2-3 rounds with the SE drivers were in 45-55 degrees as we were waiting most of the winter to get some good GP work in. So as soon as it warmed up to the mid 40s (without constant 20+ mph winds) we rushed outside.. Our latest rounds in 75-90 degrees showed around 1.5 to 2.5dB less(cea bursts). At first I thought it was best just to sum/average all of them. Then the more I thought about it....just using the warm weather data would be best because that is what Josh(and the others) will likely be experiencing too. So we went from "cold only" to a sum of all to "warm only". I've been researching this quite a bit lately, discussing it with Josh, etc. I did find notes from Ilkka saying he measured a 2 to 3dB difference going from 40f to 80f which correlates very closely to our experience. I think craig uses an omni mic kit for their measurements? That might be difficult for cea burst testing.

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That's very interesting that temperature differences could result in that. Is it the air temperature that effects the way that the sound propagates through the air? Or is the temperature effecting the performance of the driver, amp, or mic?

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post #94 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
That's very interesting that temperature differences could result in that. Is it the air temperature that effects the way that the sound propagates through the air? Or is the temperature effecting the performance of the driver, amp, or mic?
I can't say for sure yet. My initial thought process was similar to your first comment...something about the sound wave interacting with different air density for example.

But the more I research this the more it seems the biggest variable *may* be the DUT(device under test). If this is the case the amplifier(and how it reacts to increasing temps) could be the primary variable.

Another variable may be the exact sequence of the measurements. If you run CEA-2010 first in 80 degrees....it may not show as big a variance than running CEA-2010 last(after the amplifier is very warm because of 30 minutes of max performance checks for example).

I still have a lot of work to do here before I can speak with any certainty though. The only thing I'm 100% confident in at the present IS there is often(if not always) 1-3dB variance when measuring cold versus hot weather. This seems to be consistent between Power Sound , Josh, and Ilkka too.

Also, here is one of the comments Ilkka made,

>>>This is the same subwoofer that was tested last fall, but since those results caused so many heated debates, I decided to test it again in case I had done some error. Fortunately it wasn't the case. In fact this second time showed a little bit worse performance regarding maximum output (2-3 dB). Since the calibration procedure was identical to the last time, I can't think of any other major influence than the weather. Last fall it was blistering cold (around 5 C) but this time it was very warm <<<

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post #95 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I can't say for sure yet. My initial thought process was similar to your first comment...something about the sound wave interacting with different air density for example.

But the more I research this the more it seems the biggest variable *may* be the DUT(device under test). If this is the case the amplifier(and how it reacts to increasing temps) could be the primary variable.
Very interesting. Direct sunlight might have some effect, depending on how strong the sun is, since a big black sub box is going to pick up some heat from that, too, as it sits outside. 90 degrees in the noon day Florida or Arizona sun in July could be brutal on the internal enclosure temperature compared to 85 degrees 5 pm sunlight (or in the shade) in May in New York.

Seems like the next step would be to do some indoor tests with different temperatures to see what happens

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post #96 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
Very interesting. Direct sunlight might have some effect, depending on how strong the sun is, since a big black sub box is going to pick up some heat from that, too, as it sits outside. 90 degrees in the noon day Florida or Arizona sun in July could be brutal on the internal enclosure temperature compared to 85 degrees 5 pm sunlight (or in the shade) in May in New York.

Seems like the next step would be to do some indoor tests with different temperatures to see what happens
I'm sure direct sunlight could be a factor. This would be particularly true if the measurements were done on blacktop. Indoors adds too many other variables.(Jim setup in our warehouse multiple times over the fall/winter. When we setup next outside I'm going to ask Jim to run CEA-2010 first. Then go through everything else (FR, compression, etc...maybe running hard core compression stuff last). Then run CEA-2010 again immediately afterwards. This will provide some evidence regarding the sequence of testing and if it has any affect. If we get lucky we could do this mid afternoon in say the mid 80's and then again later that evening in the mid 50's. That would be a good day!


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post #97 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I'm sure direct sunlight could be a factor. This would be particularly true if the measurements were done on blacktop. Indoors adds too many other variables.(Jim setup in our warehouse multiple times over the fall/winter. When we setup next outside I'm going to ask Jim to run CEA-2010 first. Then go through everything else (FR, compression, etc...maybe running hard core compression stuff last). Then run CEA-2010 again immediately afterwards. This will provide some evidence regarding the sequence of testing and if it has any affect. If we get lucky we could do this mid afternoon in say the mid 80's and then again later that evening in the mid 50's. That would be a good day!
Agreed. Indoors is not good for doing CEA-2010 measurements in general, but for testing temperature variation it could work well if you are in a climate controlled environment where you can turn the heat or air condition up or down. Be harder to do a series of tests out doors just for that factor because you might have to do it on different days if you don't get lucky with temperature variation.

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post #98 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I can't say for sure yet. My initial thought process was similar to your first comment...something about the sound wave interacting with different air density for example.

But the more I research this the more it seems the biggest variable *may* be the DUT(device under test). If this is the case the amplifier(and how it reacts to increasing temps) could be the primary variable.

Another variable may be the exact sequence of the measurements. If you run CEA-2010 first in 80 degrees....it may not show as big a variance than running CEA-2010 last(after the amplifier is very warm because of 30 minutes of max performance checks for example).

I still have a lot of work to do here before I can speak with any certainty though. The only thing I'm 100% confident in at the present IS there is often(if not always) 1-3dB variance when measuring cold versus hot weather. This seems to be consistent between Power Sound , Josh, and Ilkka too.

Also, here is one of the comments Ilkka made,

>>>This is the same subwoofer that was tested last fall, but since those results caused so many heated debates, I decided to test it again in case I had done some error. Fortunately it wasn't the case. In fact this second time showed a little bit worse performance regarding maximum output (2-3 dB). Since the calibration procedure was identical to the last time, I can't think of any other major influence than the weather. Last fall it was blistering cold (around 5 C) but this time it was very warm <<<

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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
Very interesting. Direct sunlight might have some effect, depending on how strong the sun is, since a big black sub box is going to pick up some heat from that, too, as it sits outside. 90 degrees in the noon day Florida or Arizona sun in July could be brutal on the internal enclosure temperature compared to 85 degrees 5 pm sunlight (or in the shade) in May in New York.

Seems like the next step would be to do some indoor tests with different temperatures to see what happens
This is but one reason I shake my head when I see guys getting in heated debates about 2dB differences in max output measurements over a larger picture/assembly of the data. Of course that's not as simple and combative as a number-number comparison. Once the output numbers are this close, in most cases it is what happens to the behavior in the 5-6dB of signal before and beyond that maximum which paint a more detailed picture of which will sound "louder" or better composed at high volume... much more than the 2dB could ever communicate. Just like every lab experiment conducted, you often have to look for the session's observations and comments when looking at less obvious numeric differences. While it is often possible to come up with a measurement to depict or even quantify a specific difference, a reasonable set of measurements will never cover every such case.

Ambient conditions always impact the device, the measurement system, and the transmission through air. There is no single factor changed in isolation, and changes observed always include multiple environmental variables. The most obvious is that colder air is more dense and makes for a more efficient transfer of energy. Professional reinforcement system often encounter such issues at high altitude venues where it takes more subwoofer capability than they used at another show at sea level. The temperature can affect the mechanics of different types of drive units, and the observed effects vary for different materials and designs. If you are dealing with a changing environment of a significant warm up from morning to afternoon or a fast cool down near dusk. Sealed enclosures will function like there is a % change (+ or -) in volume if a significant temperature difference exists or isn't able to equalize. Finally, while Josh and most are good about re-calibrating and use microphones with lesser change with temperature, the more common poly diaphragm microphones will shift in sensitivity as the temperature warms up or cools down through the course of a measurement session. In no way am i saying collected data is unreliable or worthless. I am saying all measurements have tolerances and some limit to what they can and cannot tell us. Even if another tester conducts the same set of measurements as Josh, simply changing the timing of how quickly the test proceeds can result in different data, especially with many higher power designs.
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post #99 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I can't say for sure yet. My initial thought process was similar to your first comment...something about the sound wave interacting with different air density for example.
Hi Tom,

If you recall the spreadsheet I sent you a little while back, air density was one of the variables. The formula I used stuck w/ standard air pressure at 20 deg C, 0 humidity, sea level. For fun I found an air density calculator online from a quick Google search, and subbed in air densities for 40 deg F, 0 humidity, as well as 90 deg F, 90% humidity, and found a theoretical variance of 1dB.
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post #100 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 02:27 PM
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Agreed. Indoors is not good for doing CEA-2010 measurements in general, but for testing temperature variation it could work well if you are in a climate controlled environment where you can turn the heat or air condition up or down. Be harder to do a series of tests out doors just for that factor because you might have to do it on different days if you don't get lucky with temperature variation.
Oh okay. That type of check will need to wait until fall/winter. We can heat up the warehouse pretty quick....but no AC..

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post #101 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
This is but one reason I shake my head when I see guys getting in heated debates about 2dB differences in max output measurements over a larger picture/assembly of the data. Of course that's not as simple and combative as a number-number comparison. Once the output numbers are this close, in most cases it is what happens to the behavior in the 5-6dB of signal before and beyond that maximum which paint a more detailed picture of which will sound "louder" or better composed at high volume... much more than the 2dB could ever communicate. Just like every lab experiment conducted, you often have to look for the session's observations and comments when looking at less obvious numeric differences. While it is often possible to come up with a measurement to depict or even quantify a specific difference, a reasonable set of measurements will never cover every such case.

Ambient conditions always impact the device, the measurement system, and the transmission through air. There is no single factor changed in isolation, and changes observed always include multiple environmental variables. The most obvious is that colder air is more dense and makes for a more efficient transfer of energy. Professional reinforcement system often encounter such issues at high altitude venues where it takes more subwoofer capability than they used at another show at sea level. The temperature can affect the mechanics of different types of drive units, and the observed effects vary for different materials and designs. If you are dealing with a changing environment of a significant warm up from morning to afternoon or a fast cool down near dusk. Sealed enclosures will function like there is a % change (+ or -) in volume if a significant temperature difference exists or isn't able to equalize. Finally, while Josh and most are good about re-calibrating and use microphones with lesser change with temperature, the more common poly diaphragm microphones will shift in sensitivity as the temperature warms up or cools down through the course of a measurement session. In no way am i saying collected data is unreliable or worthless. I am saying all measurements have tolerances and some limit to what they can and cannot tell us. Even if another tester conducts the same set of measurements as Josh, simply changing the timing of how quickly the test proceeds can result in different data, especially with many higher power designs.
Thanks for the insight Mark. Your comments about altitude are especially intriguing. I agree we'll never get down to a variance in the 0.1dB range for example. But with continued research we can certainly lessen the 2-3dB gap we may be in at the moment. For example, and this is JUST an example. We may end up with something like...

For every 5 degree variance we should factor in a 0.5dB change. So if you go from 90 to say 60 degrees....3dB difference.

We standardize the testing sequence and work a little magic based on altitude and we're ready to have a beer!

I bet with some research we can get the weather/altitude variances down to well under 1dB. Under half a decibel is my goal.

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post #102 of 160 Old 06-22-2014, 02:59 PM
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Hi Tom,

If you recall the spreadsheet I sent you a little while back, air density was one of the variables. The formula I used stuck w/ standard air pressure at 20 deg C, 0 humidity, sea level. For fun I found an air density calculator online from a quick Google search, and subbed in air densities for 40 deg F, 0 humidity, as well as 90 deg F, 90% humidity, and found a theoretical variance of 1dB.
Hi Steve, you know I must admit I didn't spend much time playing with the variables. Looks like several factors that all affect the final tally a bit. Weather, altitude, and perhaps even the sequence of the testing.

For the most part, for anyone following along...a *rough* guess would say....for every 5 degrees of different scale the data half 0.25 to 0.50 decibel. Much more work in front of us though.

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post #103 of 160 Old 06-23-2014, 11:32 AM
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I don't ever think you will be able to consistently get any better results than +/-1dB. It may be 40deg with low humidity one day with measurements conducted while the DUT is cold and another could be 100deg with high humidity and the DUT has already been subjected to numerous high power signals and has been in the sun for a couple of hours. I could see the internal temp getting well over 100deg in some cases. And dont forget that the microphone element and also your SPL calibrator are under the same varying atmospheric conditions as the DUT. All of that stacks up. Even with redundancies, good equipment and multiple checks there will be some variances. You also have to contend with rapid atmospheric changes as Mark mentioned. I check my calibration in between each DUT.

I believe the hottest day I ever measured on was with the Gjallarhorn. I got sun burnt through the sunblock and the microphone and my preamp had to be covered up to prevent them from overheating. At one point my electronics were hot enough to burn your hand and quit functioning correctly. For this reason I no longer test in the summer during the day. Measuring 3-4 units is around 10hrs all said. It is too hard on me, the DUT which is usually black and the equipment. I setup and start around dusk and into the night instead during summer. This eliminates the sunlight and keeps the temps down below 90 for the most part which also keeps the temperature closer to what you would see in a building. I also try not to conduct measurements below 55deg if I can help it.

+1 to everything Mark said about arguing over differences of <2dB between units.

Tom,
I don't think the atmospheric conditions account for anywhere near to 1dB per 10deg or even 0.5dB per 10deg. Certainly we know that lower elevation and colder denser air make for better transmission though. I have some literature from B&K on atmospheric effects on the calibration signal somewhere. I will send it to you if I can dig it up. I don't have an easy way to test a speaker under temperature controlled conditions but I can rig something up with a microphone and calibrator both of which are critical components in the chain that should also be affected just like the DUT.

FYI The elevation where I run my measurements can't be more than a couple of hundred feet over sea level on the Ohio river flood plain.
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post #104 of 160 Old 08-22-2014, 05:23 PM
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Chane SBE-118 Review

For anyone that might be interested, I just posted a review of the SBE-118.
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That is a nice balanced review Jim. The budget subs deliver big performance at an affordable price. A pair of these should make for an awesome HT. Size is not bad considering the size of some other ID 15 in. offerings.

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post #106 of 160 Old 08-22-2014, 06:23 PM
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For anyone that might be interested, I just posted a review of the SBE-118.
Nice review. I've been recommending this sub but mostly the dual package for $1500 as an alternative to some of the other popular choices at that price point.

I think they are a tremendous value in the ID market. I certainly wouldn't mind a pair if I had the room or were looking to build a system from scratch.
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post #107 of 160 Old 08-22-2014, 06:35 PM
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Can anyone share the pictures and measurements so we don't have to register on the Chane website? Or are they top secret? LOL

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post #108 of 160 Old 08-22-2014, 06:50 PM
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Considering a pair of these can be powered by a single SA-1000 I would agree; the output potential is such that a 5000 ft^3 room would not be a problem at all. And with that you get some pretty impressive quality as well. To be honest, I was a little surprised by how refined and composed this subwoofer was. One could easily assume the SBE-118 was going to be a bit crude, but it turned out to be anything but. Truth be told, I could actually live with this subwoofer myself.

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post #109 of 160 Old 08-22-2014, 08:10 PM
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Considering a pair of these can be powered by a single SA-1000 I would agree; the output potential is such that a 5000 ft^3 room would not be a problem at all.
It very will could be a problem if they measure like the older SS18.1 versions.
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post #110 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice review. ... I think they are a tremendous value in the ID market.
+1.

If I were buying Chase subs again, I'd get two passive subs and an iNuke amp. I've had three SA1000s all of them - to varying degrees - developed a hum/buzz. The NU6000DSP I currently have is dead silent*, has more power and offers considerably more tweaking flexibility.

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(*As far as hum/buzz and "pops" go. The fans are noisy, but the amp is in another room so it doesn't matter. For same-room use, a fan mod is available which reportedly makes the iNuke whisper quiet.)
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post #111 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 06:01 AM
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It very will could be a problem if they measure like the older SS18.1 versions.
I would think they would perform very similarly: small enclosure, relatively low power for small enclosure/18in driver, means a high efficiency driver.

Does anyone know the difference between this and the 18.1?


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post #112 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 08:07 AM
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Nice write-up Jim and I appreciate your first post in your review thread...

I own (4) of the previous model (SS 18.1) subs and started off with the Dayton amp. IME, the Dayton amp is not a good choice for anyone that wants to try and reproduce what is on the disc with levels at or near reference level. The Dayton amp behaves better with an 8 ohm load and moderate listening levels with content that is filtered. Watch Battle: LA, TIH, HTTYD and WOTW with multiple subs (4 ohm load) and a MV -5dB to 0.0 and it will shut off time and time again. If you add any EQ or run "hot", it will do it much faster. Unless the new driver has been changed to something more suited for full bandwidth reproduction, than this sealed sub system is not a good choice.

The iNuke DSP amps are much, much better than the Dayton amp, cost less and have a three year warranty...

I have a dedicated space that checks in at 3000cf with an abundance of room treatments and bass traps...this allows me to easily listen at MV of -5.0dB to + 2.0dB depending on the mix. I like my bass with a slightly rising curve and I am pretty flat to almost 5Hz. I will have a different experience with the CHT/Chane "system" than Jim did. BTW, I ended up needing eight, 18" drivers for my space and listening habits. Two of the Chane subs + the Dayton amp in a 5000cf room would never work for me...

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post #113 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Does anyone know the difference between this and the 18.1?
Josh Ricci would be that person...

I hope Josh gets the chance to test the sub as well as the driver in free air to see how the T/S specs compare with the SS 18.1.
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post #114 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post
Josh Ricci would be that person...

I hope Josh gets the chance to test the sub as well as the driver in free air to see how the T/S specs compare with the SS 18.1.
Well, then, you better buy a pair and send them to Josh, then. I'm sure that's the only way that will happen again. Look, they sent it to Jim before sending to Josh, and the limited measurements that Jim takes aren't even public. LOL

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post #115 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
Well, then, you better buy a pair and send them to Josh, then.
Well, I would but...

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Originally Posted by Rijax View Post
Posted yesterday on the Chane forum: "Our two newest subwoofers, the SBE-118 and VBE-118, are slated to go to Josh for a full battery of tests in the next 2 weeks."
Josh should have them by now...
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post #116 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 09:55 AM
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Nice review. Bring back the feet.
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post #117 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 09:58 AM
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Things are progressing, but slowly. Josh is a busy guy.

On July 4, it was posted that "An SBE-118 and a VBE-118 are on the way to Josh for testing. He will need a good month or so to get them done."

On August 7, it was posted that "Josh dropped me a note this week to let us know we are next in line for his testing."

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post #118 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post
Josh should have them by now...
I'll believe it when I see the measurements or when Ricci says he has them and is ready to test. Lots of talk in the past from CHT about measurements of those SS18.1s. We see how that went. Come to think of it, there is always "lots of talk." LOL

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post #119 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
I'll believe it when I see the measurements or when Ricci says he has them and is ready to test. Lots of talk in the past from CHT about measurements of those SS18.1s. We see how that went. Come to think of it, there is always "lots of talk." LOL
I can confirm from speaking with Josh on the phone that he has the Chane subs in his possession and has for some time now. He has had my vented sub for some time too (June?) and I just sent him a sealed box last week. I think he has more subs than that to test too?

The hold up has been... well he only has Sundays to do this stuff and if it rains, well another week is lost.
And the dude is really, really busy with other things too.
Pray for good weather in Indiana next weekend and we may have some measurements on a handful of subs.

Jeremy
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post #120 of 160 Old 08-23-2014, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
I'll believe it when I see the measurements or when Ricci says he has them and is ready to test. Lots of talk in the past from CHT about measurements of those SS18.1s. We see how that went. Come to think of it, there is always "lots of talk." LOL
Really? Do you really need to come in here the crap on this thread every time there is an update?

We get it. You don't like Chase. Move on.

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