Official Chane Music & Cinema Subwoofer Thread. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 103 Old 01-17-2014, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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The forum is up and running: Chane Music & Cinema Forum

The new site shouldn't be far behind.
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post #2 of 103 Old 02-08-2014, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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The site appears to finally be up and running: Chane Music & Cinema.

The Subwoofers page lists two subs: A sealed 18" and a ported 18" (both passive).

The Amplifiers & Electronics page lists two amps: A Dayton SA-230 and an SA-1000.

The Subwoofer Systems page lists a few combinations of subs + amps, including one combo of fours sealed subs with a "Chane 3600" amp that's not listed on the "Amplifiers & Electronics" page.

-- Edit --
I just checked and the "Chane 3600" is now listed.
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post #3 of 103 Old 02-08-2014, 09:22 AM
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I recently purchased 4 ss18.1's and a MQ600 amp and these absolutely sound terrific. The amp is a beast, it is much more impressive than my EP4000. I plan on buying more Chase/Chane products in the future, the theater 10's interest me, anxious to see more user reviews of these.
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post #4 of 103 Old 02-25-2014, 06:41 AM
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I had hoped there would be a little more transparency with the new company. The frequency response for the 18" passive sub is not listed, even though their specs indicate that CEA 2010 measurements are being given for SPL output.

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post #5 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I had hoped there would be a little more transparency with the new company. The frequency response for the 18" passive sub is not listed, even though their specs indicate that CEA 2010 measurements are being given for SPL output.

Frequency response specifications are a meaningful tool for the informed consumer to use to evaluate a loudspeaker. I'm happy to address this question and to add information that will help others assess Chane bass systems.

The passive Chane subwoofers mentioned - like virtually all low frequency systems under the size of a small refrigerator - require equalization. Woofers in commonly-sized boxes are nearly always incapable of natively reaching very low F3 numbers and so are typically heavily equalized.

This equalization is generally part of the input circuit in onboard subwoofer amplifiers and is generally fixed.

As the Chane subs mentioned are indeed passive, they include neither onboard amplification or such equalization. They are subject to any number of setup variables which will influence their simple frequency response specifications.

Chane intends this as part of the product specification and philosophy, and we further extend it to the consumer as a feature. We write about this in the product descriptions, and amplifiers we offer may even include such equalization.

The most sophisticated, flexible, and user and room-responsive bass equalization for the money today, however, may be that found in common measure-and-set routines in receivers and amplifiers for the general consumer market. These user-operated routines perform high quality equalization to within an acceptably narrow window and they are easily more advanced than fixed one-curve onboard equalization in a typical powered subwoofer.

Once one of these common systems is run and its equalization curve applied, with sufficient power the Chane subwoofer is suitable to then achieve the numbers we've listed using the CEA standard. These figures are important because they reflect the subwoofer's response profile at maximum level and not just at small signal level.

Obviously, the user may also tune a system to taste by manually altering outboard bass equalization, a feature not found in all-in-one self-powered subwoofers with fixed frequency responses. This added dimension can be an important consideration.

In this way the Chane specification offers a better way to gauge real avaliable output, while the subwoofer itself offers a superior curve fit to the room the bass system is used in. The user gains added user setup flexibility, and is provided a more available and informative perspective on available real bass performance.

Stating a fixed, small-signal frequency response would require locking in just one equalization standard when we wish to promote the user employing any competent equalization method while retaining the flexibility of also tuning to taste.

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post #6 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I had hoped there would be a little more transparency with the new company. The frequency response for the 18" passive sub is not listed, even though their specs indicate that CEA 2010 measurements are being given for SPL output.

Frequency response specifications are a meaningful tool for the informed consumer to use to evaluate a loudspeaker. I'm happy to address this question and to add information that will help others assess Chane bass systems.

The passive Chane subwoofers mentioned - like virtually all low frequency systems under the size of a small refrigerator - require equalization. Woofers in commonly-sized boxes are nearly always incapable of natively reaching very low F3 numbers and so are typically heavily equalized.

This equalization is generally part of the input circuit in onboard subwoofer amplifiers and is generally fixed.

As the Chane subs mentioned are indeed passive, they include neither onboard amplification or such equalization. They are subject to any number of setup variables which will influence their simple frequency response specifications.

Chane intends this as part of the product specification and philosophy, and we further extend it to the consumer as a feature. We write about this in the product descriptions, and amplifiers we offer may even include such equalization.

The most sophisticated, flexible, and user and room-responsive bass equalization for the money today, however, may be that found in common measure-and-set routines in receivers and amplifiers for the general consumer market. These user-operated routines perform high quality equalization to within an acceptably narrow window and they are easily more advanced than fixed one-curve onboard equalization in a typical powered subwoofer.

Once one of these common systems is run and its equalization curve applied, with sufficient power the Chane subwoofer is suitable to then achieve the numbers we've listed using the CEA standard. These figures are important because they reflect the subwoofer's response profile at maximum level and not just at small signal level.

Obviously, the user may also tune a system to taste by manually altering outboard bass equalization, a feature not found in all-in-one self-powered subwoofers with fixed frequency responses. This added dimension can be an important consideration.

In this way the Chane specification offers a better way to gauge real avaliable output, while the subwoofer itself offers a superior curve fit to the room the bass system is used in. The user gains added user setup flexibility, and is provided a more available and informative perspective on available real bass performance.

Stating a fixed, small-signal frequency response would require locking in just one equalization standard when we wish to promote the user employing any competent equalization method while retaining the flexibility of also tuning to taste.

That's whole lot of typing just to say you've got nothing to show. Show us your graphs (not sims). You want us to take your word but bad results are on the user?
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post #7 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 02:46 PM
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That's whole lot of typing just to say you've got nothing to show. Show us your graphs (not sims). You want us to take your word but bad results are on the user?

We can show you any curve you'd like under the maximum output numbers provided. Did you have one you'd prefer to see?

As for 'bad results' (as I can only guess at your meaning) they'd be due to not setting external EQ properly. Again, which would you prefer to use and would you plan to use it incorrectly?

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post #8 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 04:34 PM
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We can show you any curve you'd like under the maximum output numbers provided. Did you have one you'd prefer to see?

If you visit the AVS subwoofer forum enough, I'm sure you'll find that sub enthusiasts like to see an uneq'd, anechoic (or outdoor measurement) frequency response. If you need some examples, some market research of your ID competitors will show you what is common.

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post #9 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 04:54 PM
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If you visit the AVS subwoofer forum enough, I'm sure you'll find that sub enthusiasts like to see an uneq'd, anechoic (or outdoor measurement) frequency response. If you need some examples, some market research of your ID competitors will show you what is common.

Unequalized and anechoic are not interchangeable terms and conditions, as Chane, our competitors, and hopefully customers realize. The former is the raw response of a subwoofer when its onboard equalization is defeated or when it simply has none, acquiring it outboard. The latter is typically its equalized output measured free from environmental influences.

Equalization is nearly universal because even relatively large drivers do not become native subwoofers of any significant initial efficiency in systems sized less than many cubic feet.

Subwoofer makers do not publish such unequalized response specifications. Chane does not publish them because in our case - and in the case of any unequalized passive subwoofer - these responses are not determined wholly or even substantially by the raw, electronically-unassisted woofer in its enclosure and alignment.

Ubiquitous electronic equalization simply accounts for many Decibels of the complete amplified product's response at least an octave about its new, equalized knee, and probably influencing a good half of its usable bandwidth.

There is therefore no standard of advertising unequalized responses for good reason. The standard is to advertise as-used, equalized, small-signal responses. With passive subs being unable to do so for want of any one equalized outboard response, they are more accurately defined by identifying the maximum limits of their output per frequency in bands, which does align with the prevalent standard.

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post #10 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 06:03 PM
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Yeah, well, I'd still like to see the basic frequency response of the sub without any external EQ applied. You can do so with outdoor ground plane measurements, similar to the methods Josh Ricci uses. It's a simple request that only needs a simple response: a graph.

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post #11 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 07:00 PM
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That's whole lot of typing just to say you've got nothing to show. Show us your graphs (not sims). You want us to take your word but bad results are on the user?

We can show you any curve you'd like under the maximum output numbers provided. Did you have one you'd prefer to see?

As for 'bad results' (as I can only guess at your meaning) they'd be due to not setting external EQ properly. Again, which would you prefer to use and would you plan to use it incorrectly?

Lets have a look at the raw data. You ran it through a simulator and then took a measurement outside right? Lets have a look at that graph.
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post #12 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 08:26 PM
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The passive subwoofers offered by Chane will have a very different response in the home theater due to EQ, or no EQ. This will also vary depending on if something like the Dayton SA 1000 is used with one band EQ or something like the Berhinger I Nuke DSP that has 8 filter and many other features that can be used. The raw data compared to what is achieved in the HT can be very different. Also comparing the raw data to other ID sub with built in amps and design that already have HPF, bass boost, and that have been design for a particular roll-off may make the data not as useful to readers. Once the new line of sub are ready for purchase, release some type of comparison or analysis by Josh Ricci or someone else that test subwoofers.

That is one of the advantages of buying a passive subwoofer system. The HT response can change depending on what amp is use, what EQ is used and the setup. Until there has been testing of the new subs, there cannot be much meaningful discussion on these subs performance other than subjective discussion.

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post #13 of 103 Old 02-27-2014, 08:58 PM
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The passive subwoofers offered by Chane will have a very different response in the home theater due to EQ, or no EQ. This will also vary depending on if something like the Dayton SA 1000 is used with one band EQ or something like the Berhinger I Nuke DSP that has 8 filter and many other features that can be used. The raw data compared to what is achieved in the HT can be very different. Also comparing the raw data to other ID sub with built in amps and design that already have HPF, bass boost, and that have been design for a particular roll-off may make the data not as useful to readers. Once the new line of sub are ready for purchase, release some type of comparison or analysis by Josh Ricci or someone else that test subwoofers.

That is one of the advantages of buying a passive subwoofer system. The HT response can change depending on what amp is use, what EQ is used and the setup. Until there has been testing of the new subs, there cannot be much meaningful discussion on these subs performance other than subjective discussion.

Yet, there is no good reason NOT to provide the raw data from a consumer/buyers stand point. The raw data can help someone know how suitable the sub can be for their room and the kind of EQ capabilities that they may need.

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post #14 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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The HT response can change depending on what amp is use, what EQ is used and the setup.
CMC has a page devoted to its "Subwoofer Systems" (subs w/ amps). Each "Power Package" system should have its own FR graph w/ a brief description of what parameters were used on the amp in order to obtain the response shown.

Given that there are only five systems and that each of the amps in question has few adjustable parameters, it should be very straightforward to do.

IMHO. smile.gif
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post #15 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 05:01 AM
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Guys, the company stated months ago that, in the spring (better weather for outdoor testing), the subs would be sent to Josh Ricci for testing and, when testing is completed, Josh's graphs would be posted and used as actual specs. Would testing by Josh be transparent enough for those requesting transparency? confused.gif

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post #16 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 05:09 AM
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Hi Jon & Rijax - are there any plans for any subs with built in amps? (for those of us whose WAF wants to minimize as many boxes/cables as possible)

Check out my WAF approved living room theater

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1526916/my...-1-living-room
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post #17 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 05:48 AM
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Guys, the company stated months ago that, in the spring (better weather for outdoor testing), the subs would be sent to Josh Ricci for testing and, when testing is completed, Josh's graphs would be posted and used as actual specs. Would testing by Josh be transparent enough for those requesting transparency? confused.gif

Jon posted himself he could post whatever graphs we wanted.
No problem he said.
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post #18 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 07:12 AM
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Jon posted himself he could post whatever graphs we wanted.
No problem he said.

Right. I'm sure he does. How can one design a sub and then take it to market without measuring it to see how it performs against the modeling done in the design stage? And if for some reason Chase didn't do that (although I doubt it), I'm sure Jon has measured all the Chase products in the many months that they have had since their company merger. He's a good speaker designer. Of course he would have some measurements of the sub's basic response.

And note that they are providing some CEA 2010 SPL averages. To obtain those kinds of averages, one should have the data points to provide a frequency response, even if it's just how it performs at max output.

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post #19 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 08:01 AM
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This topic has been addressed three times at length here, and an invitation to review it at the Chane forum has been extended there.

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post #20 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 08:21 AM
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This topic has been addressed three times at length here, and an invitation to review it at the Chane forum has been extended there.

You are equally welcome to discuss it here with us.

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post #21 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 08:30 AM
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Guys, the company stated months ago that, in the spring (better weather for outdoor testing), the subs would be sent to Josh Ricci for testing and, when testing is completed, Josh's graphs would be posted and used as actual specs. Would testing by Josh be transparent enough for those requesting transparency? confused.gif

Sure.

However, there is reason to question the sub's performance without additional information. The performance claims for the new sub are, "Now you've got the good stuff. Simply run Audyssey or another advanced bass setup routine on your system including one or more Chane SBE-118s and you're done: Flat bass to very low frequencies, even in smaller spaces."

There is plenty of evidence from the older Chase Home Theater subwoofer thread that the previous model 18.1s are incapable of meeting this general claim. The previous 18.1 subs required a lot of room gain and/or significant EQ to achieve that. My own experience was that it took Audyssey MultEQ, an Antimode, and a modified Dayton SA1000 to help with EQ to achieve a decent response. Nfrasco similarly reported problems with achieving "flat bass" and provided a modeling graph that seems to indicate the native raw response of the previous 18.1 series. This all when product claims for the older 18.1 series included manufacturer data like "+/- 3 dB from 23 Hz to 200 Hz."

So personally, I am very reluctant to accept that claim for the new sub series. That's a reasonable concern given all the controversy over the previous passive sub series. These new ones could undoubtedly be better. Some kind of raw frequency response numbers would be the first indication of that, and given that the Chane product information page has a category that says, "Frequency response, raw:" with no data, it seems reasonable to ask for such information. It's common to provide such information with passive speakers. Why not passive subs?
laugsbach and its phillip like this.

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post #22 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 09:26 AM
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This topic has been addressed three times at length here, and an invitation to review it at the Chane forum has been extended there.

So no graphs for us then?
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post #23 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 09:48 AM
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Jon posted himself he could post whatever graphs we wanted.
No problem he said.

Right. I'm sure he does. How can one design a sub and then take it to market without measuring it to see how it performs against the modeling done in the design stage? And if for some reason Chase didn't do that (although I doubt it), I'm sure Jon has measured all the Chase products in the many months that they have had since their company merger. He's a good speaker designer. Of course he would have some measurements of the sub's basic response.

And note that they are providing some CEA 2010 SPL averages. To obtain those kinds of averages, one should have the data points to provide a frequency response, even if it's just how it performs at max output.

The way I read it over at chane is that it is untested till Josh does his thing in the spring. I think they are running on assumptions over there.
Is that about right jon?
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post #24 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 10:54 AM
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The way I read it over at chane is that it is untested till Josh does his thing in the spring. I think they are running on assumptions over there.
Is that about right jon?

The way I read it over at Chane in that thread (starting here), is that there is something wrong with you and I asking about the frequency response measurements, with a lot of accusations about us, including that Chane is being held to some unreasonable standard for us asking about frequency response data. Other ID sub vendors provide some measurements that would help someone to understand the native response of the subwoofer unit that one purchases, so someone please tell me why that's an unreasonable request?

Moreover, the comments about you and I over there are hostile enough that I would not feel comfortable posting on that forum. I think if Jon and Craig really want to discuss this as per their invitation, then Audioholics would be a much better neutral ground since it is moderated by someone else. I would imagine that the Audioholics community would be happy to host a discussion about the usefulness to consumers of having these kinds of measurements for passive subs.

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post #25 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 12:11 PM
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The way I read it over at chane is that it is untested till Josh does his thing in the spring. I think they are running on assumptions over there.
Is that about right jon?

The way I read it over at Chane in that thread (starting here), is that there is something wrong with you and I asking about the frequency response measurements, with a lot of accusations about us, including that Chane is being held to some unreasonable standard for us asking about frequency response data. Other ID sub vendors provide some measurements that would help someone to understand the native response of the subwoofer unit that one purchases, so someone please tell me why that's an unreasonable request?

Moreover, the comments about you and I over there are hostile enough that I would not feel comfortable posting on that forum. I think if Jon and Craig really want to discuss this as per their invitation, then Audioholics would be a much better neutral ground since it is moderated by someone else. I would imagine that the Audioholics community would be happy to host a discussion about the usefulness to consumers of having these kinds of measurements for passive subs.

Lots of "shuckin and jivin". I just asked because he came here. He said he could post graphs so I said which one and. he doesn't have a baseline graph I guess. He mates an amp with his sub but no graph?
Maybe he runs on sims?

I have no need to go to their website lol. He can answer here or go away, it makes little difference to me.
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post #26 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 12:27 PM
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The way I read it over at Chane in that thread (starting here), is that there is something wrong with you and I asking about the frequency response measurements, with a lot of accusations about us, including that Chane is being held to some unreasonable standard for us asking about frequency response data. Other ID sub vendors provide some measurements that would help someone to understand the native response of the subwoofer unit that one purchases, so someone please tell me why that's an unreasonable request?

Moreover, the comments about you and I over there are hostile enough that I would not feel comfortable posting on that forum. I think if Jon and Craig really want to discuss this as per their invitation, then Audioholics would be a much better neutral ground since it is moderated by someone else. I would imagine that the Audioholics community would be happy to host a discussion about the usefulness to consumers of having these kinds of measurements for passive subs.

You do know that Craig is banned over at audioholics...so... I don't think its viable to have an open ended discussion...HTS could be the answer....wink.gif

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post #27 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 02:18 PM
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You do know that Craig is banned over at audioholics...so... I don't think its viable to have an open ended discussion...HTS could be the answer....wink.gif

No, I didn't know that. LOL

Upon further reflection, I don't see any reason to have a debate. It's pretty standard to provide frequency response measurements for passive speakers and subs throughout home audio, pro audio, and car audio. I think the ship sailed on that debate a LONG time ago.
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post #28 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 02:30 PM
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Data on the new subs will be provide on the Chane website. All are welcome to view it once it is completed. This is an open invitation and only takes a mouse click . Chane has a forum and personally I see to reason for them to discuss there product on any other forum since any interested party can go straight to the horse's mouth, so to speak.

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post #29 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 03:07 PM
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You do know that Craig is banned over at audioholics...so... I don't think its viable to have an open ended discussion...HTS could be the answer....wink.gif

No, I didn't know that. LOL

Upon further reflection, I don't see any reason to have a debate. It's pretty standard to provide frequency response measurements for passive speakers and subs throughout home audio, pro audio, and car audio. I think the ship sailed on that debate a LONG time ago.
if they're using the same driver and box size as they used to, somewhere on AVS there should be a close mic response without any filters or boosts engaged. Lilgator or some others may've done that.

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post #30 of 103 Old 02-28-2014, 03:12 PM
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Data on the new subs will be provide on the Chane website. All are welcome to view it once it is completed. This is an open invitation and only takes a mouse click . Chane has a forum and personally I see to reason for them to discuss there product on any other forum since any interested party can go straight to the horse's mouth, so to speak.
They had no problem discussing it on the Shack. I trust you can appreciate people being leary of encountering deleted posts and other shenanigans that transpired at the former CHT forum.
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