Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24405939
I had hoped there would be a little more transparency with the new company. The frequency response for the 18" passive sub is not listed, even though their specs indicate that CEA 2010 measurements are being given for SPL output.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24418299
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24405939
I had hoped there would be a little more transparency with the new company. The frequency response for the 18" passive sub is not listed, even though their specs indicate that CEA 2010 measurements are being given for SPL output.
Frequency response specifications are a meaningful tool for the informed consumer to use to evaluate a loudspeaker. I'm happy to address this question and to add information that will help others assess Chane bass systems.
The passive Chane subwoofers mentioned - like virtually all low frequency systems under the size of a small refrigerator - require equalization. Woofers in commonly-sized boxes are nearly always incapable of natively reaching very low F3 numbers and so are typically heavily equalized.
This equalization is generally part of the input circuit in onboard subwoofer amplifiers and is generally fixed.
As the Chane subs mentioned are indeed passive, they include neither onboard amplification or such equalization. They are subject to any number of setup variables which will influence their simple frequency response specifications.
Chane intends this as part of the product specification and philosophy, and we further extend it to the consumer as a feature. We write about this in the product descriptions, and amplifiers we offer may even include such equalization.
The most sophisticated, flexible, and user and room-responsive bass equalization for the money today, however, may be that found in common measure-and-set routines in receivers and amplifiers for the general consumer market. These user-operated routines perform high quality equalization to within an acceptably narrow window and they are easily more advanced than fixed one-curve onboard equalization in a typical powered subwoofer.
Once one of these common systems is run and its equalization curve applied, with sufficient power the Chane subwoofer is suitable to then achieve the numbers we've listed using the CEA standard. These figures are important because they reflect the subwoofer's response profile at maximum level and not just at small signal level.
Obviously, the user may also tune a system to taste by manually altering outboard bass equalization, a feature not found in all-in-one self-powered subwoofers with fixed frequency responses. This added dimension can be an important consideration.
In this way the Chane specification offers a better way to gauge real avaliable output, while the subwoofer itself offers a superior curve fit to the room the bass system is used in. The user gains added user setup flexibility, and is provided a more available and informative perspective on available real bass performance.
Stating a fixed, small-signal frequency response would require locking in just one equalization standard when we wish to promote the user employing any competent equalization method while retaining the flexibility of also tuning to taste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24418357
That's whole lot of typing just to say you've got nothing to show. Show us your graphs (not sims). You want us to take your word but bad results are on the user?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24418489
We can show you any curve you'd like under the maximum output numbers provided. Did you have one you'd prefer to see?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24418975
If you visit the AVS subwoofer forum enough, I'm sure you'll find that sub enthusiasts like to see an uneq'd, anechoic (or outdoor measurement) frequency response. If you need some examples, some market research of your ID competitors will show you what is common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24418489
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24418357
That's whole lot of typing just to say you've got nothing to show. Show us your graphs (not sims). You want us to take your word but bad results are on the user?
We can show you any curve you'd like under the maximum output numbers provided. Did you have one you'd prefer to see?
As for 'bad results' (as I can only guess at your meaning) they'd be due to not setting external EQ properly. Again, which would you prefer to use and would you plan to use it incorrectly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24419882
The passive subwoofers offered by Chane will have a very different response in the home theater due to EQ, or no EQ. This will also vary depending on if something like the Dayton SA 1000 is used with one band EQ or something like the Berhinger I Nuke DSP that has 8 filter and many other features that can be used. The raw data compared to what is achieved in the HT can be very different. Also comparing the raw data to other ID sub with built in amps and design that already have HPF, bass boost, and that have been design for a particular roll-off may make the data not as useful to readers. Once the new line of sub are ready for purchase, release some type of comparison or analysis by Josh Ricci or someone else that test subwoofers.
That is one of the advantages of buying a passive subwoofer system. The HT response can change depending on what amp is use, what EQ is used and the setup. Until there has been testing of the new subs, there cannot be much meaningful discussion on these subs performance other than subjective discussion.
CMC has a page devoted to its "Subwoofer Systems" (subs w/ amps). Each "Power Package" system should have its own FR graph w/ a brief description of what parameters were used on the amp in order to obtain the response shown.Quote:
The HT response can change depending on what amp is use, what EQ is used and the setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rijax /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24420565
Guys, the company stated months ago that, in the spring (better weather for outdoor testing), the subs would be sent to Josh Ricci for testing and, when testing is completed, Josh's graphs would be posted and used as actual specs. Would testing by Josh be transparent enough for those requesting transparency?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24420703
Jon posted himself he could post whatever graphs we wanted.
No problem he said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24421211
This topic has been addressed three times at length here, and an invitation to review it at the Chane forum has been extended there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rijax /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24420565
Guys, the company stated months ago that, in the spring (better weather for outdoor testing), the subs would be sent to Josh Ricci for testing and, when testing is completed, Josh's graphs would be posted and used as actual specs. Would testing by Josh be transparent enough for those requesting transparency?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24421211
This topic has been addressed three times at length here, and an invitation to review it at the Chane forum has been extended there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24420978
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24420703
Jon posted himself he could post whatever graphs we wanted.
No problem he said.
Right. I'm sure he does. How can one design a sub and then take it to market without measuring it to see how it performs against the modeling done in the design stage? And if for some reason Chase didn't do that (although I doubt it), I'm sure Jon has measured all the Chase products in the many months that they have had since their company merger. He's a good speaker designer. Of course he would have some measurements of the sub's basic response.
And note that they are providing some CEA 2010 SPL averages. To obtain those kinds of averages, one should have the data points to provide a frequency response, even if it's just how it performs at max output.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24421694
The way I read it over at chane is that it is untested till Josh does his thing in the spring. I think they are running on assumptions over there.
Is that about right jon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24421976
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24421694
The way I read it over at chane is that it is untested till Josh does his thing in the spring. I think they are running on assumptions over there.
Is that about right jon?
The way I read it over at Chane in that thread (starting here) , is that there is something wrong with you and I asking about the frequency response measurements, with a lot of accusations about us, including that Chane is being held to some unreasonable standard for us asking about frequency response data. Other ID sub vendors provide some measurements that would help someone to understand the native response of the subwoofer unit that one purchases, so someone please tell me why that's an unreasonable request?
Moreover, the comments about you and I over there are hostile enough that I would not feel comfortable posting on that forum. I think if Jon and Craig really want to discuss this as per their invitation, then Audioholics would be a much better neutral ground since it is moderated by someone else. I would imagine that the Audioholics community would be happy to host a discussion about the usefulness to consumers of having these kinds of measurements for passive subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /t/1512510/official-chane-music-cinema-subwoofer-thread#post_24421976
The way I read it over at Chane in that thread (starting here) , is that there is something wrong with you and I asking about the frequency response measurements, with a lot of accusations about us, including that Chane is being held to some unreasonable standard for us asking about frequency response data. Other ID sub vendors provide some measurements that would help someone to understand the native response of the subwoofer unit that one purchases, so someone please tell me why that's an unreasonable request?
Moreover, the comments about you and I over there are hostile enough that I would not feel comfortable posting on that forum. I think if Jon and Craig really want to discuss this as per their invitation, then Audioholics would be a much better neutral ground since it is moderated by someone else. I would imagine that the Audioholics community would be happy to host a discussion about the usefulness to consumers of having these kinds of measurements for passive subs.