Arrrggggg!! I need a new sub and the choices keep EXPANDING as I read more! Help! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 01-19-2014, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, sorry for the loss of composure there but I started out a few days ago with a simple question... A Polk PSW125 or dual Mark Logan Dynamo 500's. Of course, no one answered that other than to say I should get a SVS instead, which was not really helpful at the time... or so I thought. Of course I have spent countless hours then reading and readings some more. 

 

My old sub was a Mirage PS-12-90 from about 20 years ago.

 

The PSW 125 arrived on Friday and I ran a few tests on it and its a HUGE improvement over the old mirage that actually has fits during a low freq test I DL'd from the net. The PSW125 sounds much better but does vibrate on the floor. I think it's found a rather flat spot and has decided to stay there for now :-)

 

Since my first post I have investigated several options and, yes I am going to list them and ask for some help, no necessarily picking an outright winner but I'd like some help eliminating a few.

 

I'll add pricing because that's important, if it wasn't I'd just get the PB-2000 and be done with it. 

 

 

Two Mark Logan Dynamo 500's! Price for two is only $457.00 and I already have bought them although they have not yet arrived. I auditioned these a couple of years ago and at the time I heard a single and it definitely blew me away. The price I got both of these for is almost $200 less than a single one was back then.

 

Polk PSW125 $241 - As above, Its a decent improvement over my old mirage, moving about the floor is a bit disconcerting though. 

 

SVS PB1000 It's $573.00 and seems to be a well respected speaker from an even more well respected maker , but my room is big and while there was some deals at the outlet, they won't ship to me in Canada so I have to pay full price from their Canadian store. Is a single one of these worth 2.5 ML Dynamo 500s? 

 

Klipsch SW115 - $688.00 Seems like a great deal and its a 15" so it should be a good fit for my larger room. Good reviews is not exactly an attractive speaker looks wise. Course none of these are real lookers :-)

 

Outlaw LFM-1EX - $866.15 Also a nice well reviewed speaker but it's getting up there. It's only a 12" as well. 

 

SVS PB-2000  $1022.00  Not exactly an affordable speaker anymore and its about the same price as a pair of the PB-1000

 

I'll wait for the Logans to arrive this week and test them out. They are only 10" drivers but there are two of them, will they perform better than the single PSW125 from Polk? Who knows... will they perform as well as any of the others? 

 

I suspect the Polk PSW125 is being sent packing, but for value I think its going to be hard to beat the pair of mark Logan Dynamo 500s. Are there any of these that stand right out and please keep the value in mind. I  am willing to pay more as long as I am getting more but it should be in line with the extra cost. In other words.... if the rest were crap I'd have to spring for the PB-2000 but I don't get the feeling this is the case. The Logans just seem such a sweet deal. Please, any advice someone could offer would be appreciated. 

 

 

My specs are;

Room is about 2900cuft with one end open to an even larger room.

Receiver Onkyo NR-TX709

fronts Polk RTi-A9

center Polk CSI-A6

sides Polk Monitor 40

rear KEF motorized Qi 200 in ceiling

 

Thanks

Mike 

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post #2 of 29 Old 01-19-2014, 05:59 PM
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SVS PB1000 It's $573.00 and seems to be a well respected speaker from an even more well respected maker ... Is a single one of these worth 2.5 ML Dynamo 500s?
IMO, yes. The ML's are 120W RMS subs with extension to 29Hz @ -3dB. The PB-1000 is a 300W RMS sub with extension to 19Hz @ -3dB. The PB-1000 will have greater overall output, and will dig considerably deeper.

Buy a PB-1000 now, and add a second one later on, when funds become available. In your space, dual PB-1000s would be very sweet. cool.gif
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post #3 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 09:53 AM
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Well I can tell you this much.. The sub journey thing will never end. We always want more.. So try and spend on a good quality sub or subs that will last you for sometime. Because you will save in the long run. Btw, what is you max budget on subs?
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post #4 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 10:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FlyGuy007 View Post

My specs are;

You left out the most important spec of all.......what are your expectations.

Without an answer to this question, nothing else matters.
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post #5 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, it looks like I just saved a few bucks on another project. The budget isn't so much an issue as the value of it. The big box store Subs at 60-70% off the MSRP seems like a great value.... but the more I hear on the forums I am thinking just take back all these subs and order an SVS. Now to pick one I can afford and live with.

 

SVS aren't as cheap here though especially since we have no access to the outlet pricing.

 

All I really want out of this is a sub that Works and works well. We listen to music about half the time and HT the other half.

 

Mike

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post #6 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyGuy007 View Post

Well, it looks like I just saved a few bucks on another project. The budget isn't so much an issue as the value of it. The big box store Subs at 60-70% off the MSRP seems like a great value.... but the more I hear on the forums I am thinking just take back all these subs and order an SVS. Now to pick one I can afford and live with.

SVS aren't as cheap here though especially since we have no access to the outlet pricing.

All I really want out of this is a sub that Works and works well. We listen to music about half the time and HT the other half.

Mike
I've read that the Rythmik's are awsome all around. Especially music. And are you thinking of just one sub or a dual setup? Because just to let you know once one goes duals they never go back single. Yes, it's that much better with duals. A better FR.
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post #7 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 11:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FlyGuy007 View Post

All I really want out of this is a sub that Works and works well. We listen to music about half the time and HT the other half.

Ah, come on, you can do a better job of expressing your emotional needs than what you posted in your above. You can do better than that.

(the above is about as weak as it can get)

...tongue.gif

(hi, I want a pop gun that goes pop)

Sure you do.

...tongue.gif

(don't give me the 50/50 BS.....tell the world what you really want.....music or subs.....make a choice)

My bet, you're in it for Home Theater playback first and music second.
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post #8 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 03:28 PM
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IMO the best option is dual PB-1000s so you can get output coupled with smoother bass across the listening positions. The 2nd best option would be the PB-2000. Finally, the 3rd best choice is the Outlaw.

 

FWIW I say get a GOOD subwoofer now and be happy with what you get for a while before the upgrade bug bites again. If you get a lesser sub now the upgrade bug will bite right away and you won't be happy at all. 

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post #9 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm not exactly sure which way to go.... Thanks to Beemans convincing argument. :-) sorry my response was rushed.... Had a plane to catch. The Logan's arrived this afternoon and it looks like you guys are convincing enough that they are also going back.

So my choices are narrowed now to

PB-1000 (about $575 all in)
PB-12 NSD (about $870) that's about the top end of what I should spend
PB-2000 (about $1050)

So, could I live with a single pb-1000 until I could afford a second? If I never go with a second will a single pb-1000 work in such a large room. What about getting the pb-1000 and keeping one of the Dynamo 500's as a second. They were such a cheap price that I hate returning them. I can always later add the Dynamo to my basement arcade cause a modern pinball machine like AC/DC sounds great with a sub too.

I think we will use the sub or subs for a long time to come. My Mirage PS-12-90 lasted nearly 20 years so I don't flip my stuff and constantly upgrade. whatever I buy will hopefully be the last one for many years to come. I'm actually leaning a bit towards the PB-12 NSD but it's not even on the SVS page, although it appears on the Canadian page as a new product. Is this sub new or on the way out?

Thanks
Mike
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post #10 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 06:23 PM
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I am pretty sure if you decide to add a second sub with in a year they will give you the dual Sub price. So get the PB1000 now and you have a year to get the second at a lower price than full.

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post #11 of 29 Old 01-20-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

I am pretty sure if you decide to add a second sub with in a year they will give you the dual Sub price. So get the PB1000 now and you have a year to get the second at a lower price than full.

Nashou

Yep. 

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post #12 of 29 Old 01-21-2014, 06:44 AM
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Of course I have spent countless hours then reading and readings some more.

I did that for months. After a mountain of reading, if I had to summarize what my optimum decision-making process boiled down to:

  • Determine the most you can spend
  • Determine your usage (HT, music ... only pipe organs and synthesizers go lower than ~28Hz)
  • Take aesthetics into account (size, looks, etc.)
  • Look at the frequency charts (data-bass.com has some for non-budget subs (the exception being the BIC PL-200); some professional reviews take measurements)
  • Don't automatically believe the manufacturers' specs
  • Know why two subs might be better than one and where you should place them
  • Pull the trigger


You'll always get the same five or six ID sub suggestions, and they all have good charts. They may or may not suit your needs. They didn't for me. I was willing to sacrifice some low extension for small size.
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post #13 of 29 Old 01-21-2014, 07:57 AM
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+ 1 Smitty that's a good systematic approach to wading through all the options available out there and then getting past the analysis paralysis that accompanies all that reading. 

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post #14 of 29 Old 01-21-2014, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I had a few spare moments today so I unpacked and hooked up the two Martin Logan Dynamo 500 subs..... One has a huge rattle and very audible static. I tried swapping inputs and the static stayed with the sub, so it's definitely something odd inside. The one with the sound had some other really audio sounds when doing a 20-200Hz test as well. At 50 Hz it sounded like a race car launched, and this seemed audible over the test tone.   The other Dynamo actually sounded quite good, but it really is kinda small and having one bad right outta the box does not bode well. 

 

So far the Polk was far better which is kinda disappointing as I really wanted to like the Martin Logans.... 

 

Anyway, it looks like all these are going back and I have to call SVS and have someone give me some advice. If I get the PB1000 I am scared I am going to by unhappy with it as its only a 10". Two of them are out of my price range right now. Could I get the PB-12 NSD and add a PB-1000 later... will they match?

 

Mike

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post #15 of 29 Old 01-21-2014, 02:05 PM
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From what I've seen and experienced blending two unmatched subwoofers is not too difficult, especially if they are  both the same type (ported or sealed). However, blending a sealed and a ported can be a bit vexing. Ideally you would want two matching subs because it makes the whole process easier but personally I don't think what you are considering is a bad plan and it I think it should work. 

 

If you really have doubts you could get the PB-2000 and by the time you're ready for the 2nd sub you just may find that you will want a 2nd larger sub and then you could get a 2nd PB-2000. But I know the price of that may not work for you. 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyGuy007 View Post

Well, I had a few spare moments today so I unpacked and hooked up the two Martin Logan Dynamo 500 subs..... One has a huge rattle and very audible static. I tried swapping inputs and the static stayed with the sub, so it's definitely something odd inside. The one with the sound had some other really audio sounds when doing a 20-200Hz test as well. At 50 Hz it sounded like a race car launched, and this seemed audible over the test tone.   The other Dynamo actually sounded quite good, but it really is kinda small and having one bad right outta the box does not bode well. 

So far the Polk was far better which is kinda disappointing as I really wanted to like the Martin Logans.... 

Anyway, it looks like all these are going back and I have to call SVS and have someone give me some advice. If I get the PB1000 I am scared I am going to by unhappy with it as its only a 10". Two of them are out of my price range right now. Could I get the PB-12 NSD and add a PB-1000 later... will they match?

Mike

One PB1000 will have more output than the two Dynamo 500s so if you were willing to live with the two dynamos then you can live with on PB1000 for a while until you can get another one.

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post #17 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I know so much of this is personal preference but this is a big upgrade and one I only plan to do once, for a long time to come. So many guys really consider audio a hobby, while for me its more utilitarian. I have tried three different subs and am coming from a Mirage 12" that served me well for almost two decades. I really want the best sound that I can get for the money and if someone had of told me a few months ago I could hear or feel that great of a difference between subs I would have  laughed it off. However, running several of the online tone tests has convinced me that there are HUGE differences between subs. I guess the relentless push from the SVS fans have convinced me to take a serious look at this brand.

 

We listen top mostly HT, but as I have upgraded my system I noticed I am listening to way more music than before. Of course, most of the music is played at lower volumes than the HT as it's more like background music that gets cranked when a great song comes up. I'm afraid the sources are definitely not audiophile, being .mp3 or online with LastFM, or Sky.

 

OK, here's the next question then.... I have stretched my budget by about 40% and I can afford a single PB-2000 or dual PB-1000? Also I see the PB-1000 comes in ported and sealed at the same price. I have tons of room so size is not a factor, which is going to be the better combo? I doubt if I spend the money for a single PB-2000 (almost $1100 here) that I'd ever spring for a second.

 

 Is the only real reason to go with the sealed units the saving of space? As there does seem to be some compromises in  the lower freq's going with a sealed unit?

 

So dual ported 1000 or single ported 2000 seems to be my choices? Are there any real pros and cons or are these things so close that either would be fine in the long run?

 

thanks

Mike

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post #18 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 07:08 AM
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post #19 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 07:36 AM
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but the more I hear on the forums I am thinking just take back all these subs and order an SVS. Now to pick one I can afford and live with.

That’s what I did many years ago and never regretted it. Just a single CS+ (not available now of course) had so much more to give/offer in the lower freq’s than my dual 15” CHT velodyne’s.. I was quite enamored and wished I would have saved myself time and $$ by just doing it in the first place. I could mention other benefits, but that was the bottom line along with SQ.

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.... but the more I hear on the forums I am thinking just take back all these subs and order an SVS. Now to pick one I can afford and live with.

Just saying, happiness will be found in buying two or three subs that you can't afford to buy. Happiness won't be found, buying one sub that you "CAN" afford to buy.

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post #21 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 07:56 AM
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I still say go with the dual PB-1000s so you can have smoother bass throughout your room and not just good bass in one or two spots. Going with the single PB-2000 is a great option IF you were seriously considering buying a 2nd in a year or so down the road. 

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post #22 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 08:06 AM
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I would not get discouraged with some of the talk around here. We are on the extreme side of audio/bass. I see you have had your last sub for 20 years “My old sub was a Mirage PS-12-90 from about 20 years ago” . Upgrading to a nice SVS option (if that’s what you do) will be a very pleasurable experience imo and one I’m quite sure you would enjoy for years to come.
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post #23 of 29 Old 01-22-2014, 08:14 AM
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I would not get discouraged with some of the talk around here. We are on the extreme side of audio/bass. I see you have had your last sub for 20 years “My old sub was a Mirage PS-12-90 from about 20 years ago” . Upgrading to a nice SVS option (if that’s what you do) will be a very pleasurable experience imo and one I’m quite sure you would enjoy for years to come.

^^ I agree. Buy the best sub(s) you can now and be happy for years to come. 

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Upgrading to a nice SVS option (if that’s what you do) will be a very pleasurable experience imo and one I’m quite sure you would enjoy for years to come.

And as one gets older, happy finishes become fewer and further in between.......sigh. tongue.gif

...biggrin.gif

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post #25 of 29 Old 01-23-2014, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, resistance us futile.......

Called Jack yesterday at SVS, he seemed quite knowledgable and he took quite a bit of time with me, we discussed room size and many other factors. I was quite happy that he suggested I test other subs which goes to show he had confidence in SVS coming out ahead. I didn't need much more convincing. Then he told me to call Mason at Sonicboom in Ontario to place the order since I was in Canada. Turned out that I called at a unique time as the PB-1000 are priced the same in CAD as in the US, which actually amounts to about an 8 % discount because the CAD buck is lower right now. Also he offered a 5% discount for ordering a pair.

I went ahead and ordered a pair of the PB-1000 and they'll ship Tuesday. Thanks for everyone's help in reaching this choice. I do hope they work out much better than my Martin Logan pair experience. I really wanted to like them but having one arrive with issues tossed water onto that.

It's funny, if these SVS subs arrive before I have time to start returning the losers I'll have a room almost filled with boxed subs! Polk PSW125, being returned, two Martin Logan's being returned, and my old Mirage PS -12-90...... Plus the two PB-1000s! That will be 6 subs in my living room........ Thank God, I have an understanding wife :-)


Thanks again guys........ Now I need to set my sites on something to help drive my Polk RTi-A9 ... Maybe and Emotiva 2 or 3 channel.

Mike
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post #26 of 29 Old 01-23-2014, 03:04 PM
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Well, resistance us futile.......

Called Jack yesterday at SVS, he seemed quite knowledgable and he took quite a bit of time with me, we discussed room size and many other factors. I was quite happy that he suggested I test other subs which goes to show he had confidence in SVS coming out ahead. I didn't need much more convincing. Then he told me to call Mason at Sonicboom in Ontario to place the order since I was in Canada. Turned out that I called at a unique time as the PB-1000 are priced the same in CAD as in the US, which actually amounts to about an 8 % discount because the CAD buck is lower right now. Also he offered a 5% discount for ordering a pair.

I went ahead and ordered a pair of the PB-1000 and they'll ship Tuesday. Thanks for everyone's help in reaching this choice. I do hope they work out much better than my Martin Logan pair experience. I really wanted to like them but having one arrive with issues tossed water onto that.

It's funny, if these SVS subs arrive before I have time to start returning the losers I'll have a room almost filled with boxed subs! Polk PSW125, being returned, two Martin Logan's being returned, and my old Mirage PS -12-90...... Plus the two PB-1000s! That will be 6 subs in my living room........ Thank God, I have an understanding wife :-)


Thanks again guys........ Now I need to set my sites on something to help drive my Polk RTi-A9 ... Maybe and Emotiva 2 or 3 channel.

Mike

Congrats!!!! I have dual PB1000's now and love them!! My theater is 4k cu ft and they rock with music and go deep for movies and loud!! the best thing is you only hear them when they SHOULD be heard. Many lesser subs seem to always be chuffing away.

SVS subs have a very flat Frequency response so they may get some getting use to.

For a great music Blu Ray you have to get Sound City. Great music on that Documentary by Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters. The Drum Room part is awesome!!!

I have been listening to more music then before in my Dedicated theater just because of the sound quality of these subs for music.

Enjoy!!!

Athanasios
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post #27 of 29 Old 01-23-2014, 05:31 PM
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Congrats on your new subs. You should be enjoying them for many years to come. 

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post #28 of 29 Old 03-29-2014, 05:13 PM
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I am curious as to why I never see any recommendations for PC subs. Do people not like the Cylinders? i had a PC NSD and then changed to PB NSD (because I found it for $400...! Although its got a few marks on it. But hey, its an ugly big black box that you never look at up close.) and they honestly seem just as powerful as each other. I entirely prefer Cylinder subs for their form factor though. It looks better and takes up less space with a soft finish. 

 

However, along my journey of reading about SVS and people recommending me subs, PCs almost never came up. I do plan on getting a second NSD when I can and I would prefer to get a Cylinder even if its just as much as a Box. 

 

is there some hidden reason why people don't buy the cheaper cylinder subs?

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post #29 of 29 Old 03-29-2014, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DNZone View Post

I am curious as to why I never see any recommendations for PC subs. Do people not like the Cylinders? i had a PC NSD and then changed to PB NSD (because I found it for $400...! Although its got a few marks on it. But hey, its an ugly big black box that you never look at up close.) and they honestly seem just as powerful as each other. I entirely prefer Cylinder subs for their form factor though. It looks better and takes up less space with a soft finish. 

However, along my journey of reading about SVS and people recommending me subs, PCs almost never came up. I do plan on getting a second NSD when I can and I would prefer to get a Cylinder even if its just as much as a Box. 

is there some hidden reason why people don't buy the cheaper cylinder subs?

Better hurry if you want another NSD, they've been discontinued. I've got the SVS PC12+ and I love the thing. Sure it isn't as pretty as your standard box, but the cheaper price allowed me to buy into the plus line.

AVR: Denon 2112
Speakers: EMP Tek e55ti, Center- EMP Tek e56ci, Side Surrounds- EMP Tek e55wi, Rear Surrounds- KLH 911b, Sub- SVS PC12 Plus
TV: Panasonic 50VT25
Blu-Ray Player:Samsung BD-EM59C;
Playstation 4, Apple TV, Harmony Remote
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